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MML Electrification: progress updates

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The Ham

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There is still no sign of any work being done on building the Braybrooke electrical feeder station.....

Chances are the first thing which would be noticeable would be works in the location of the mobile phone mast on Kettering Road near the A6 (depending on if that's the access point, but would appear to be a logical point to access the site):

https://maps.app.goo.gl/AVmPKhPeMxo14AFC9
 
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Two questions of those more knowledgeable about electrification:

Firstly, is the estimated cost of GBP1bn quoted by Lady Vere for electrifying between Kettering and Sheffield/Nottingham still a realistic figure; and

Secondly, as there has been a delay in announcing who the suppliers of the bi-modes for the MML will be, are there any rumours circulating within the railway industry which suggest that the decision to cancel electrification is being reviewed?

I ask the first because in the August issue of 'Modern Railways', Ian Walmsley reports (page 43) that the cost of wiring the MML is coming in at GBP500k per single track kilometer; simple maths indicate that - at this price - the actual wiring of the MML north of Kettering will not get anywhere near the cost claimed by Lady Vere, and although there will be many other works needed, the sum quoted by her seems to be excessive.

Regarding my second question, from approximate figures I have been able to obtain by google searches, the average cost of each bi-mode vehicle is about GBP400k more than for a straight electric one; there has been speculation elsewhere as to how many bi-modes will be procured, but as the extra cost of each bi-mode vehicle is approximately the cost of wiring 800m of track, my gut feeling is that restoration of electrification should at least be considered. The above comment is only based upon a difference in the capital cost of the trains (which will be reflected in the lease charges payable by EMR); maintenance costs, fuel, variable access charges, will all be higher for bi-mode trains, and need to be factored in. Moreover, resignalling and other infrastructure works have been undertaken as part of the overall MML modernisation programme, and therefore the "saving" to electrifying north of Kettering will be much greater than the GBP30m reported by Lady Vere for works undertaken before cancellation and since, as these works (like Derby remodeling) will have been undertaken with future electrification in mind.

Ian Walmsley also states that at a recent IMechE conference on electrification, Network Rail's Richard Stainton described how wires had been installed beneath Queen Street bridge in Cardiff, and confirmed that the same approach would allow wires to be put in place beneath Leicester station bridge; Walmsley describes this location as "the nastiest bit on the Midland main line" (page 44).
 

richieb1971

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OHLE is not desirable over bimodes. I'd hazard a guess that in the future some OHLE might be taken down. Depends on how well bimodes turn out and I would expect this MML project to be the foundation to that.
 

AM9

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OHLE is not desirable over bimodes. I'd hazard a guess that in the future some OHLE might be taken down. Depends on how well bimodes turn out and I would expect this MML project to be the foundation to that.
I presume you have some reason, (or even evidence) that OLE is 'not desirable' over bi-modes. Could you please share it with us?
 

richieb1971

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Well as a Bedfordian I can tell you OLE is disruptive and very time consuming. The Bimode MML project will either be a roaring success or a terrible failure. If its the former I would be encouraging the mind set of most people to go with bi modes.

If you haven't noticed in the past decades railways are enclosed like prisons now. Spiked high fences, walls that block out any visibility of the railway. Is that what we want?

Railways were great the way they were. In the new age of gantries, I just don't see the railway the same.

Also I'd rather money go into rolling stock. Lets spend on better trains.

Not to mention the weather. The weather is just going to burn all OLE in the future if the temps keep staying this high.

I think that Bi modes win over OLE on most things.
 

cjmillsnun

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Well as a Bedfordian I can tell you OLE is disruptive and very time consuming. The Bimode MML project will either be a roaring success or a terrible failure. If its the former I would be encouraging the mind set of most people to go with bi modes.

If you haven't noticed in the past decades railways are enclosed like prisons now. Spiked high fences, walls that block out any visibility of the railway. Is that what we want?

Railways were great the way they were. In the new age of gantries, I just don't see the railway the same.

Also I'd rather money go into rolling stock. Lets spend on better trains.

Not to mention the weather. The weather is just going to burn all OLE in the future if the temps keep staying this high.

I think that Bi modes win over OLE on most things.

How about the big issue? Climate change. Bi modes are not going to tackle that. We need to get away from using internal combustion engines where we can, and railways are a prime candidate for that.

In terms of efficiency, electric trains are better. Bimodes are the worst of both worlds. You have the extra weight of the traction not currently in use to drag around.

But instead your view of the railway is more important :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

richieb1971

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How about the big issue? Climate change. Bi modes are not going to tackle that. We need to get away from using internal combustion engines where we can, and railways are a prime candidate for that.

In terms of efficiency, electric trains are better. Bimodes are the worst of both worlds. You have the extra weight of the traction not currently in use to drag around.

But instead your view of the railway is more important :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm just one person fella. I'm tired of people putting other people down on this forum. Its a forum for discussion. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

swt_passenger

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Well as a Bedfordian I can tell you OLE is disruptive and very time consuming. The Bimode MML project will either be a roaring success or a terrible failure. If its the former I would be encouraging the mind set of most people to go with bi modes.

If you haven't noticed in the past decades railways are enclosed like prisons now. Spiked high fences, walls that block out any visibility of the railway. Is that what we want?

Railways were great the way they were. In the new age of gantries, I just don't see the railway the same.

Also I'd rather money go into rolling stock. Lets spend on better trains.

Not to mention the weather. The weather is just going to burn all OLE in the future if the temps keep staying this high.

I think that Bi modes win over OLE on most things.
Get rid of the wires as you suggest above, (taken down), and they won’t be bimodes anymore, just bog standard diesels...
 

richieb1971

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Get rid of the wires as you suggest above, (taken down), and they won’t be bimodes anymore, just bog standard diesels...

The main trunk routes will always be OLE, and there are possibly other OLE plans in the future where bimodes make more sense. Cross country routes use a lot of OLE routes on their paths.

If there are pockets of OLE like around London where the freight routes go, perhaps they could use Bi mode locomotives as well.

I didn't mean take the lot down because like you say that would suggest we are going backwards.

It all depends on how well bimodes work out in the end. The MML bimode project if successful would allow money to be diverted from infrastructure and into trains with out the chaos that ensues with infrastructure change.

It should be done on a case by case basis.
 

MarkyT

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Instead of being a threat, Bi-modes could be seen as an opportunity to carry out a rolling programme of progressive electrification, without the pressure of a fleet renewal deadline.

Even while still carrying their diesel gen sets, every mile saved on diesel is engine hours and fuel saved, with maintenance and off wire range implications, so gradual further extension of electrification can still makes sense if infrastructure costs can be brought under control. As the proportion of off wire running in typical diagrams decreases, the practicality of replacing many if not all of the bi-modes' diesel power packs with moderately sized battery packs increases, so they could continue to be able to run through short gaps in wiring where provision would be very difficult or expensive. Pennine tunnels are an example. The alchemy will then be in optimising the size of the on board batteries (and any remaing self powered engine or fuel cell modules) to the characteristics of the diagrams served. The modular nature of the AT300 trains seems to lend itself to this kind of evolution over its service life.

There's no problem starting and getting up to linespeed under a moderately sized battery, just in repeating that exercise many times and sustaining prolonged high speed running. You could get to the point, say where only 10% of a route remained unwired, when battery storage alone could suffice to cover the gaps. What I'm suggesting is that while in the process of achieving that, operators could still save fuel and engine hours by exploiting new sections of wiring as they are gradually energised.

To me the Cardiff Valleys electrification is possibly the most interesting electrification project underway in the UK at the moment. The use of OHLE/battery trains there doesn't preclude further electrification on the NR controlled infrastructure that the tram-trains and FLIRTs will use. I hope that once the new Valleys team has demonstrated they can plan and implement cost effective electrification, they will be let loose by NR and TfW on the VOG, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale routes, the main line to Swansea...and beyond. The big prize possible with Swansea, along with Oxford and Bristol electrification, would be to allow the gen sets on a large proportion of the GWR IET fleet to be removed. A similar approach could apply on the MML. I would say that within the life of the fleet, there's a good chance of that happening with some future enlightened thinking. As others have said the problem is not the intrinsic expense of electrification, but that of a particular difficult project that must never be allowed to become sole the benchmark for all future projects. Bi-modes provide the interim pragmatic measure to enable the electrification to proceed further without all the dependencies of the initial scheme, and when new wires are energised anywhere en route it is always the time to raise the pantographs and switch off the diesels through the section, as this will save (somebody) some money and probably improve performance. When under the wires there is clearly a weight disadvantage in having to lug the diesels and fuel tanks or batteries around, but that doesn't seem to impact much on the cl. 80x acceleration which is stunning in my (admittedly limited) experience, as the OHLE supply is able to reliably deliver the power required, and once the train up to line speed then the extra weight has little effect on the energy used for cruising, especially on level track.

On MML, much of the signalling is now OHLE ready. Once the new fleet is in service, a steady programme could proceed in the background to adapt bridge and station clearances, and could allow a staged introduction of more OHLE on a much more relaxed timescale.
 

AM9

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Well as a Bedfordian I can tell you OLE is disruptive and very time consuming. The Bimode MML project will either be a roaring success or a terrible failure. If its the former I would be encouraging the mind set of most people to go with bi modes.

If you haven't noticed in the past decades railways are enclosed like prisons now. Spiked high fences, walls that block out any visibility of the railway. Is that what we want?

Railways were great the way they were. In the new age of gantries, I just don't see the railway the same.

Also I'd rather money go into rolling stock. Lets spend on better trains.

Not to mention the weather. The weather is just going to burn all OLE in the future if the temps keep staying this high.

I think that Bi modes win over OLE on most things.

Apart from burning diesel for energy and incrementally damaging the health of others, being hit by a 100mph diesel, bi-mode or electric powered train hurts just the same. So the "spiked high fences" and walls that block out views will be here anyway. Most people use trains to get from A to B, not watching them as part of a non-paying hobby, and they would prefer that the trains they use don't make the already dire climate change issue any worse than it already is.
As far as spending more on rolling stock goes, diesels and bi-mode trains cost more but that doesn't make any of the interior environment any better, - indeed, those with large diesel engines beneath the floor have significantly worse passenger environments with noise and vibration envelopes that just aren't at anywhere the same levels as with electric vehicles.
As far as OLe reliability is concerned, you maybe haven't been reading the threads covering the recent problems occurring during the latest high temperatures. The rapidly accelerating rise in global temperatures will require the compensation components of UK OLE installations to operate over higher (and maybe larger) temperature ranges. Difficult to ignore but relatively easy to fix. The track expansion issue is common to all railway lines but ironically, exacerbated by the continual burying of heads in sand and not dealing with CO2 generating internal combustion engines.
 

richieb1971

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I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick. I thought Bi modes was any 2 forms of fuel that doesn't include diesel. Surely diesel is off the table?
 

Domh245

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I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick. I thought Bi modes was any 2 forms of fuel that doesn't include diesel. Surely diesel is off the table?

Strictly speaking yes, but the only examples (and most commonly referred to) in the UK are Electric/Diesel. Diesel is also the only viable second "fuel" - the only alternative is batteries, but they are incredible expensive and considerably lower range than Diesel gives you.
 

w1bbl3

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I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick. I thought Bi modes was any 2 forms of fuel that doesn't include diesel. Surely diesel is off the table?
Current bi-modes are diesel and electric in the the future electric and battery bi-modes may appear.
The second type of bi-mode still needs enough OLE to charge the battery between unelectrified portions, the higher the line speed the greater the battery capacity that would be required for battery bi-mode and the shorter the unelectrified sections can be.

The proposed MML bimodes from Hitachi and Bombardier are diesel and electric so a short term solution to the longer term problem of OLE installation across the full route being too expensive.
 

richieb1971

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I thought Grayling was saying that Hydrogen cell technology and batteries were the MML goal.

Bi Mode with diesel is something I would not like to see in any capacity at all.

If Hydrogen or batteries are the designated goals i'm all for it.
 

IanXC

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I thought Grayling was saying that Hydrogen cell technology and batteries were the MML goal.

He may have tried to give that impression but theres no realistic prospect of the next MML fleet being powered in that way.

Bi Mode with diesel is something I would not like to see in any capacity at all.

Sounds like you are in fact in favour of MML Electrification?
 

w1bbl3

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I thought Grayling was saying that Hydrogen cell technology and batteries were the MML goal.

Bi Mode with diesel is something I would not like to see in any capacity at all.

If Hydrogen or batteries are the designated goals i'm all for it.

Hydrogen Cell requires commercial scale hydrogen production to become viable, currently it isn't as the electricity costs involved in separating hydrogen from water are more prohibitive than diesel or electric battery charging. To solve this requires a step change in the cost of electricity generation which all the current renewables are unlikely to deliver or the costs associated with nuclear new build falling. Then an hydrogen delivery infrastructure needs to be created realistically only the road transport sector is large enough to justify creation of such a national infrastructure, which is a problem as road transport is heading down the battery electric route not hydrogen fuel cell.

The problem with batteries for trains is range and time taken to recharge whilst both are improving even at the current rate of improvement batteries will not reach required power density to replicate a self powered high speed (diesel) train in terms of range within the next 25 years. So to decarbonise MML the only real long term option is more OLE be it the whole route or enough the route that batteries can fill in the missing sections.

Think of it another way if Bonic duckweed, Hydrogen or Batteries where at the point of being realistically viable as the primary means of power for trains there would be no need for HS2 to electrified thus saving lots of money... they aren't so HS2 will feature OLE. Moreover had the GWML electrification project not spiralled so far out of control in terms of costs bi-modes would not be on the agenda as anything other than a stop-gap to electrification.
 

Bald Rick

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Think of it another way if Bonic duckweed, Hydrogen or Batteries where at the point of being realistically viable as the primary means of power for trains there would be no need for HS2 to electrified thus saving lots of money... they aren't so HS2 will feature OLE. Moreover had the GWML electrification project not spiralled so far out of control in terms costs bi-modes would not be on the agenda as anything other than a stop-gap to electrification.

Most of this is correct, but of course bi-modes were always planned (and ordered) well before the GW electrification was reduced in scope - both for the GW and ECML. I’m pretty sure the TPE and Hull trains bi modes etc would have been ordered regardless of the state of the electrification programme.
 

paul1609

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Most of this is correct, but of course bi-modes were always planned (and ordered) well before the GW electrification was reduced in scope - both for the GW and ECML. I’m pretty sure the TPE and Hull trains bi modes etc would have been ordered regardless of the state of the electrification programme.
Does anybody have any figures on how over budget and over time the GW electrification project actually is now?
 

MarkyT

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Most of this is correct, but of course bi-modes were always planned (and ordered) well before the GW electrification was reduced in scope - both for the GW and ECML. I’m pretty sure the TPE and Hull trains bi modes etc would have been ordered regardless of the state of the electrification programme.
True, but on the GW a large proportion of the original IET fleet would have been pure electric if the wiring project hadn't run into so much trouble. While it was quite an easy, if expensive, exercise to vary the order to become all bi-mode, the modular nature of the train could allow many of them to have their diesel gen-sets easily removed again at some point in their life if once the dust has settled the extent of wiring is increased to save money on diesel maintenance, increase availability and reliability, and reduce emissions. The Devon and Cornwall service group is rather different of course and GWR's separate 802 order always had to be bimode as it's likely to be many decades before wires reach anywhere near Penzance. Even with bi-modes it makes sense to minimise the mileage under diesel power as this increases the range between refuelling and the engine hours hence allowing maintenance intervals to be increased. When the proportion of electrified mileage on a diagram gets to say 90% or more, operation with moderately sized battery packs in place of all or some of the gen-sets could become practical. The modular nature of the UK AT300s seems to lend itself to this possibility.
 
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Class 170101

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Two questions of those more knowledgeable about electrification:

Firstly, is the estimated cost of GBP1bn quoted by Lady Vere for electrifying between Kettering and Sheffield/Nottingham still a realistic figure; and

Secondly, as there has been a delay in announcing who the suppliers of the bi-modes for the MML will be, are there any rumours circulating within the railway industry which suggest that the decision to cancel electrification is being reviewed?

I ask the first because in the August issue of 'Modern Railways', Ian Walmsley reports (page 43) that the cost of wiring the MML is coming in at GBP500k per single track kilometer; simple maths indicate that - at this price - the actual wiring of the MML north of Kettering will not get anywhere near the cost claimed by Lady Vere, and although there will be many other works needed, the sum quoted by her seems to be excessive.

Regarding my second question, from approximate figures I have been able to obtain by google searches, the average cost of each bi-mode vehicle is about GBP400k more than for a straight electric one; there has been speculation elsewhere as to how many bi-modes will be procured, but as the extra cost of each bi-mode vehicle is approximately the cost of wiring 800m of track, my gut feeling is that restoration of electrification should at least be considered. The above comment is only based upon a difference in the capital cost of the trains (which will be reflected in the lease charges payable by EMR); maintenance costs, fuel, variable access charges, will all be higher for bi-mode trains, and need to be factored in. Moreover, resignalling and other infrastructure works have been undertaken as part of the overall MML modernisation programme, and therefore the "saving" to electrifying north of Kettering will be much greater than the GBP30m reported by Lady Vere for works undertaken before cancellation and since, as these works (like Derby remodeling) will have been undertaken with future electrification in mind.

Ian Walmsley also states that at a recent IMechE conference on electrification, Network Rail's Richard Stainton described how wires had been installed beneath Queen Street bridge in Cardiff, and confirmed that the same approach would allow wires to be put in place beneath Leicester station bridge; Walmsley describes this location as "the nastiest bit on the Midland main line" (page 44).
Bi-mode trains will put the cost on the operators rather the government (via NR) in terms of now not wiring. So £500k/stkm is a saving to the DfT. The extra cost of Bi-modes being borne by the operators (via leasing companies).

Secondly even if the wiring scheme was un-cancelled by the DfT I very much doubt it would be completed as originally proposed until the end of CP6 never mind the blocks required to facilitate construction and installation of the OLE.

A Train built and tested away from the live railway (unlike OLE construction) will be a winner with the DfT especially if it can shunt the costs on to the private sector.
 

hooverboy

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Bi-mode trains will put the cost on the operators rather the government (via NR) in terms of now not wiring. So £500k/stkm is a saving to the DfT. The extra cost of Bi-modes being borne by the operators (via leasing companies).

Secondly even if the wiring scheme was un-cancelled by the DfT I very much doubt it would be completed as originally proposed until the end of CP6 never mind the blocks required to facilitate construction and installation of the OLE.

A Train built and tested away from the live railway (unlike OLE construction) will be a winner with the DfT especially if it can shunt the costs on to the private sector.
I do hate to be rude, but don't you find the terminology..control period 5/6 etc a bit marxist/lenininst?
sounds like the glorious 5 year plans' does it not?

about the same level of success by the look of it too.
 

edwin_m

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Bi-mode trains will put the cost on the operators rather the government (via NR) in terms of now not wiring. So £500k/stkm is a saving to the DfT. The extra cost of Bi-modes being borne by the operators (via leasing companies).
For a franchised operator (ie most of them) that cost comes back to DfT anyway in the form of reduced premium or increased subsidy. But government departments tend to ignore increased cost in the future if it means lower cost now. Perhaps more significantly the government is insulated to some extent from the risk of cost over-runs on the bi-modes but not on electrification.
 

Aictos

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However if the private sector can present a business case to electrify and maintain a route then surely the DfT should be happy with it, case in point Hull City Council and Hull Trains together put together a business plan to electrify Temple Hirst Junction to Hull Paragon Interchange which would have in conjunction with electrifying the Trans-Pennine route west of Selby allowing electrified services from Hull to Leeds, Manchester and potentially York and the North.

However the anti Electrification policy of the DfT was made clear by the Transport Minister, Paul Maynard MP, wrote to the LEP Chair and local MPs on 16 November 2016 saying:

"Given the number of passenger benefits already being delivered without electrification, there is almost no further benefit to justify further publicly funded investment and the disruption electrification would bring."

Project link

I know there's a issue with who's funding those schemes but like I said above if the private sector can come up with a business plan that is sound and they can prove they can fund/build/maintain the infrastructure over a period of years then why not?

Especially if the private sector can prove their business plan would cost less then one from Network Rail etc....
 

Class 170101

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I do hate to be rude, but don't you find the terminology..control period 5/6 etc a bit marxist/lenininst?
sounds like the glorious 5 year plans' does it not?

about the same level of success by the look of it too.

What???

For a franchised operator (ie most of them) that cost comes back to DfT anyway in the form of reduced premium or increased subsidy. But government departments tend to ignore increased cost in the future if it means lower cost now. Perhaps more significantly the government is insulated to some extent from the risk of cost over-runs on the bi-modes but not on electrification.

I have to agree with your last comment its all about now nevermind later - not my problem syndrome.
(They don't tend to hang around long these politicans).
 
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After the completion of the ECML electrification scheme, a lessons learnt conference was held in Newcastle on 11-12 July, 1991; in his subsequent Project Completion Certificate (which can be found on line at: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_ECMLCompletion1992.pdf ) Don Heath (BR's Project Director) noted that "as is so often the case, there was little to emerge that was really new: the key messages were just re-inforcing what has been said so many times before", and that one of these messages was that "main line electrification rarely causes any significant disturbance – let alone disruption – to services: it is route rationalisation and re-signalling which do this”.

These are going ahead anyway on the MML, hence my second question.

It has been suggested that bi-modes should be the way forward for the MML. These are much more expensive to procure than straight electrics, and as I have noted maintenance, fuel, and track usage charges are also much higher; moreover, when running south of either Kettering or Market Harborough (whichever the northern terminus for electrification is), the bi-modes will also be incurring an additional usage charge resulting from using the OHLE, thereby adding to the additional cost burden EMR will incur by using bi-modes instead of straight electrics on London - Sheffield/Nottingham services.

Regarding the additional cost of maintenance, I recall reading some time ago an analysis of the IEP contract, and my recollection is that this showed that the additional cost of maintenance of each bi-mode vehicle equated to GBP4m over the contract's life of 27 years; my initial thought was that this was high, but as it only equates to roundly GBP400 per vehicle per day, it is probably correct. Expressed another way, the additional cost of maintaining a bi-mode (compared to a straight electric) means that what would be spent to maintain a single 9-car set for one year would be sufficient to wire nearly 2.7 single track kilometers of the MML.

I therefore believe that the present situation should be challenged, and that full electrification of the MML is a "no-brainer" and should be the target; if GBP500k is the actual cost of wiring each single track kilometer of the MML, it should be easy to justify electrification through to Sheffield/Nottingham, and for it to have a short pay-back period. Class 222s could be retained by EMR to work the bulk of the services until electrification is completed, and perhaps more HSTs should go through a life extension programme to make them suitable for non-Meridian worked services until straight electrics can take over.
 

John Webb

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I do hate to be rude, but don't you find the terminology..control period 5/6 etc a bit marxist/lenininst?
sounds like the glorious 5 year plans' does it not?

about the same level of success by the look of it too.
AS a former civil servant I would have welcomed the prospect of 5 years stability and less dealings with the dead hand of the Treasury. I hate to think of the time and money that I had to waste by having to justify to the Treasury every year what I was being asked to do. And the arguments we had to endure to get equipment that did the job rather than the cheapest available was another waste of time and money as well.
 
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