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MML Electrification: progress updates

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70014IronDuke

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My, it's going to be interesting when oil prices get back up to where they're likely to be in 10 years and that electrification is going to start looking cheap by comparison and we're saddled with a lot of expensive intensive diesel mileage needing urgent wiring to prevent running cost budgets being blown.

I'm not a fan of bi-modes - I would have preferred diesel locos generating the power to power all-electric EMUs instead (that could obviously run without the loco when on the wires), but given we have bi-modes, then surely the main advantage of them is that they enable piecemeal electrification, so the obvious move here would be to move to a gradual rolling programme where shorter sections could be completed without having to complete huge projects in one big bang - i.e. rather than Kettering to Sheffield in one project, why not just slowly let the wires creep northwards gradually, with the switchover point moving with them as each bit gets turned on?

Good points. The alternative is to get rid of the electrification teams asap.
And then reform them in a decade or a bit more, at great cost, and .. making the same mistakes - again!

Once again, the Midland loses out, as it repeatedly did when part of BR LMR. Now it loses out with the promise of HS2 - which, by the way, was promised to be delivered "with no cutbacks to current rail investment" (approximate quote). Ha bloody ha!

As for sops - thinking out of the box - the next operator ought to promise opening the Burton-Coalville-Leicester line - somehow, by hook or by crook, this is a scandalously underused (or rather unused!) asset.
 
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Johnnie2Sheds

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Nah Leicester, Derby and Nottingham dont need their railways electrified. Why would they? Put some poxy lorry engine under the coaches that'll do. The whole thing could have been a springboard to electrify the the XC route between (roughly) Leeds- Doncaster and Bristol. You know, to bring us into the 20th Century. :rolleyes:
 

mushroomchow

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As for sops - thinking out of the box - the next operator ought to promise opening the Burton-Coalville-Leicester line - somehow, by hook or by crook, this is a scandalously underused (or rather unused!) asset.

I would love for this to happen, but as somebody who has campaigned for the route's passenger service to be reinstated, I can say with confidence that it will not happen until the local councils stop opposing it on cost grounds.

The latest "appraisal" was particularly appalling in that it put reopening costs at £150 million due to vague claims of "subsidence" along patches of the route north of Coalville requiring upwards of £70 million of work to rectify... even though the line is still traversable in its entirety, and it only cost £3.9 million to replace the entirety of the damaged trackbed of the Severn Valley, a far worse example, to Network Rail's standards, to the extent that the line is now permitted for 50mph testing - a similar standard to that which one would expect the Leicester - Burton route to operate. Even taking inflation into account, that was a flat out lie which was never scrutinised, and then used as an excuse to shelve proposals yet again. Economic growth, regeneration of Coalville and ecological benefits for the growing National Forest were all ignored - as was the concept of opening in phases, with a Coalville - Leicester service along the "functional" section of the route, which takes in all of its major economic receptors, a non-starter for no good reason.

On top of that, the GVA and cost-benefit ratio has always been grossly understated, when the solid evidence from similar schemes - be that the Robin Hood line, the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff line or the Borders route - has ended up with passenger figures smashing usage expectations. In the case of Ebbw Vale, they managed to hit the 5 year projection in 11 months. All three routes have had to lengthen consists to deal with demand.

The only real obstacle is the lack of a northern chord at Saffron Lane, which would require the compulsory purchase of and demolition of a factory unit. But when you consider the amount of CPOs associated with HS2, knocking down one factory is a pretty ridiculous excuse, especially as it will also unlock new freight paths for the route. There's even the possibility of a new turnback at Saffron Lane with a station, which I'm sure the local area would find useful.

You've got a ready-made connection to park and ride at Meynell's Gorse, huge employment growth at Bardon Hill business park (not least the new Amazon depot) and thousands of houses being built in the likes of Ibstock, Ravenstone and Whitwick. But apparently none of that warrants even an hourly rail service.

Put simply, it may require a modest subsidy, so Leicestershire and Staffordshire continually do all they can to avoid having to fund services - even if that means wantonly releasing fudged reports to undermine its economic viability. It would have to be forced through national government for it to ever happen, but nobody around here seems to have the commitment to do so.
 
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A0

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Nah Leicester, Derby and Nottingham dont need their railways electrified. Why would they? Put some poxy lorry engine under the coaches that'll do. The whole thing could have been a springboard to electrify the the XC route between (roughly) Leeds- Doncaster and Bristol. You know, to bring us into the 20th Century. :rolleyes:

Except they are quite different from "lorry" engines. The MTU units being deployed in the 800s are generators rather than the prime mover.

And I'm not sure that deploying a further extension of a 19th century propulsion method is particularly forward looking?

Looking at what are the propulsion methods of the future seems more sensible - and bi modes are part of the solution.
 

Robertj21a

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I would love for this to happen, but as somebody who has campaigned for the route's passenger service to be reinstated, I can say with confidence that it will not happen until the local councils stop opposing it on cost grounds.

The latest "appraisal" was particularly appalling in that it put reopening costs at £150 million due to vague claims of "subsidence" along patches of the route north of Coalville requiring upwards of £70 million of work to rectify... even though the line is still traversable in its entirety, and it only cost £3.9 million to replace the entirety of the damaged trackbed of the Severn Valley, a far worse example, to Network Rail's standards, to the extent that the line is now permitted for 50mph testing - a similar standard to that which one would expect the Leicester - Burton route to operate. Even taking inflation into account, that was a flat out lie which was never scrutinised, and then used as an excuse to shelve proposals yet again. Economic growth, regeneration of Coalville and ecological benefits for the growing National Forest were all ignored - as was the concept of opening in phases, with a Coalville - Leicester service along the "functional" section of the route, which takes in all of its major economic receptors, a non-starter for no good reason.

On top of that, the GVA and cost-benefit ratio has always been grossly understated, when the solid evidence from similar schemes - be that the Robin Hood line, the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff line or the Borders route - has ended up with passenger figures smashing usage expectations. In the case of Ebbw Vale, they managed to hit the 5 year projection in 11 months. All three routes have had to lengthen consists to deal with demand.

The only real obstacle is the lack of a northern chord at Saffron Lane, which would require the compulsory purchase of and demolition of a factory unit. But when you consider the amount of CPOs associated with HS2, knocking down one factory is a pretty ridiculous excuse, especially as it will also unlock new freight paths for the route. There's even the possibility of a new turnback at Saffron Lane with a station, which I'm sure the local area would find useful.

You've got a ready-made connection to park and ride at Meynell's Gorse, huge employment growth at Bardon Hill business park (not least the new Amazon depot) and thousands of houses being built in the likes of Ibstock, Ravenstone and Whitwick. But apparently none of that warrants even an hourly rail service.

Put simply, it may require a modest subsidy, so Leicestershire and Staffordshire continually do all they can to avoid having to fund services - even if that means wantonly releasing fudged reports to undermine its economic viability. It would have to be forced through national government for it to ever happen, but nobody around here seems to have the commitment to do so.

However convincing the arguments may be, I doubt that any county council would find it very easy to subsidise a new railway service at the present time. Only national government could make this happen.
 

Dave1987

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I seem to remember some of us being slated for suggesting bi-modes would give the politicians a get out clause for wanting to cancel electrification. Hmmmm looks like we were right. Bi-modes have killed electrification pure and simple.
 

Moonshot

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Of course whilst we get nothing you are paying for a nice new aircon trains and stations in Bulgaria via EU grants. Think of that whilst heading to work to pay those taxes on a 30+ year old sweat box.

Which of course wont be an issue once we stop paying into EU coffers after Brexit
 

TheKnightWho

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I seem to remember some of us being slated for suggesting bi-modes would give the politicians a get out clause for wanting to cancel electrification. Hmmmm looks like we were right. Bi-modes have killed electrification pure and simple.

Oil prices will go up, and these will be back on the table on future. Bimodes at least allow for this to not be a complete and utter disaster.
 

Moonshot

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I seem to remember some of us being slated for suggesting bi-modes would give the politicians a get out clause for wanting to cancel electrification. Hmmmm looks like we were right. Bi-modes have killed electrification pure and simple.

Couldnt agree more......and I have to say I m personally glad
 

A0

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Of course whilst we get nothing you are paying for a nice new aircon trains and stations in Bulgaria via EU grants. Think of that whilst heading to work to pay those taxes on a 30+ year old sweat box.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....way-to-receive-e86m-from-eu-development-fund/

Arrant nonsense of course.

The bi-mode 800s will be replacing the HSTs.

The Pacers will be on their way out by 2020.

The Sprinters won't be that far behind them - being replaced with various things.
 

A0

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Oil prices will go up, and these will be back on the table on future. Bimodes at least allow for this to not be a complete and utter disaster.

Except oil price increases also increase the cost of electricity.......

You didn't think electricity was generated out of thin air did you?

I suspect the bi-modes are rather more fuel efficient than the last generation of diesel trains, so simplistically they are cheaper to run as a result.
 

theageofthetra

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Arrant nonsense of course.

The bi-mode 800s will be replacing the HSTs.

The Pacers will be on their way out by 2020.

The Sprinters won't be that far behind them - being replaced with various things.

Paid for by whom? Not by Bulgarians out of their 10% flat rate income tax.
 

Moonshot

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Paid for by whom? Not by Bulgarians out of their 10% flat rate income tax.

Just in case you are not aware, UK rolling stock is in general financed by ROSCOs ( who have pension funds amongst their shareholders )...they are then leased to the operators.
 

ainsworth74

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This thread is for discussing MML electrification (or not as it seems). It isn't a venue for rehashing the tired pro/anti-EU arguments yet again. Any further posts of this nature are liable for deletion.
 

Dave1987

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Oil prices will go up, and these will be back on the table on future. Bimodes at least allow for this to not be a complete and utter disaster.

It's already a complete and utter disaster! Bi-modes have meant the politicians can still get their positive PR of shiny new trains.

I distinctly remember be told that I was stupid (or words to that effect) to suggest that bi-modes would give them the perfect excuse to cancel electrification schemes. Seems I was correct after all. Bi-modes have put this countries electrification back decades.
 

Moonshot

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So what does todays announcement mean for end to end journey times for MML assuming that new bi mode rolling stock will be used?
 

Camden

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It's amazing how many times people put forward cynical theories years in advance, told that they're hogwash, only for it to come true in the end anyway.

Kettering & Corby, Nottingham & Sheffield. Supposedly one electrification project but moved world's apart once HS2 raised its ugly head.

HS2 was always going to destroy the case for electrification to Nottingham and Sheffield. If nothing else, the government will need people to use HS2. And just like they still try and force people to pay the premium for HS1, it seems like they only know one way of doing things.

Cue the Thameslinkification of Kettering and Corby. People keep saying it's not going to happen, but I reckon it will. Kettering will still have some Midland Mainline fasts, but I predict Corby will go Thameslink only, with interchange at Kettering for anything more. It's an obvious way of signalling the spread of the commuter belt ever further.

Anything we're missing? Don't think so. No one talks about Leicester anymore anyway!!
 

thenorthern

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Given that the infrastructure already in place to Bedford isn't suitable for trains running faster than 100 mph what is the point in bi-mode trains?
 

A0

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So what does todays announcement mean for end to end journey times for MML assuming that new bi mode rolling stock will be used?

Probably depends on the other infrastructure improvements - it's a given that Market Harborough station is going to be rebuilt - that takes out a particularly slow stretch. 4 tracking south of Kettering should also clear the fasts a bit more by allowing the Corby's to use the slows.

Depends what other bottlenecks are addressed really.
 

ag51ruk

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So what does todays announcement mean for end to end journey times for MML assuming that new bi mode rolling stock will be used?

Quoted improvement of 20 minutes from Sheffield and Nottingham to London in the peaks, but some (all?) of that is due to the removal of any stops by those trains south of Kettering, and some Kettering stops removed as well
 

thenorthern

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Given that HS2 is due to serve the East Midlands and Sheffield by 2032 and the plans for electrification of the Midland Main Line were due to be completed in 2023 under the revised dates the Government may have scrapped the Midland Main Line electrification on the grounds that there was little point in electrifying a line that would be superseded in 9 years.
 

coppercapped

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Given that the infrastructure already in place to Bedford isn't suitable for trains running faster than 100 mph what is the point in bi-mode trains?

The wiring can be modified, just as is the section from Acton Yard to Airport Junction on the GW to raise the design speed of the OHLE from 100mph to 125mph for the Class 80Xs.
 

A0

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Quoted improvement of 20 minutes from Sheffield and Nottingham to London in the peaks, but some (all?) of that is due to the removal of any stops by those trains south of Kettering, and some Kettering stops removed as well

If you look at the current Market Harborough - London times, the non-stop services are on average 9 minutes quicker - so there's going to have to be some other improvements to shave 20 mins off Sheffield / Nottingham times.
 

Johnnie2Sheds

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Except they are quite different from "lorry" engines. The MTU units being deployed in the 800s are generators rather than the prime mover.

And I'm not sure that deploying a further extension of a 19th century propulsion method is particularly forward looking?

Looking at what are the propulsion methods of the future seems more sensible - and bi modes are part of the solution.

Interesting. Your first statement, second sentence does not make a lot of sense to me, just because the "lorry engine" is bolted to an alternator means it is not the "prime mover"? It wont be the prime mover under OLE but the fact there will be no OLE means it is the prime mover.
"And I'm not sure that deploying a further extension of a 19th century propulsion method is particularly forward looking?" said the poster, championing diesel traction.
Bi modes, and specifically diesel engines, are not part of the "solution", they are part of the "problem". Diesel engines stink, are comparatively heavy, vibrate, have hundreds of moving parts, run on fuel (which they have to cart about with them) sold by some very odd characters whom we feel the need to murder every so often to get a better price. Then are shocked when they try to murder us in retaliation. Also I dont see the "wait for the train powered by fairydust in the future" arguement working for the GWML, as they stick the posts into the ground.
The "solution" is to electrify, especially the main lines. Well, it would be if we had any Electrification Engineers. I know, lets train some.
Just because HS2 is serving the outskirts of Nottingham and Derby, that means the rest (including Leicester) can go hang? Really?
 

mushroomchow

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(With regards to the Leicester - Burton route, otherwise known as the National Forest Line (NFL) - ed) However convincing the arguments may be, I doubt that any county council would find it very easy to subsidise a new railway service at the present time. Only national government could make this happen.

Therein lies the problem. They aren't trying to get anyone else to help fund it, even though the current spaffing of money on HS2 presents possibly the best opportunity there ever has been for national-scale investment to get it up and running.

To be fair to Andrew Bridgen (NW Leics), he had long proposed rerouting HS2 around East Midlands Airport and using the cash saved from the rather silly tunnel idea (costed at about £300 million) to finance reopening the NFL. That has now been done, but (surprise, surprise), everything has since gone quiet as regards the original plan, and the money has seemingly disappeared.

I don't think anybody associated with wishing to reopen the NFL to passengers has made any real attempt to source funding from alternative sources. Local authorities are never going to do it in a million years, but other channels do exist (Local Economic Partnerships, TOC commitments, Developer contributions etc.)

Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked here. Heard this avvo that Bi-mode trains are due by 2022, apparently, so I guess you've all got about 5 years left to enjoy "proper" trains on the MML before the HSTs are retired and it goes full "plastic". I do hope that some of the EMT rakes are preserved, as from an enthusiast standpoint the VP185s, original light clusters and retained IC70 seating make them a far more authentic article. Certainly the best mainline thrash one can experience without going to the provinces nowadays. :p
 
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RichmondCommu

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Given that HS2 is due to serve the East Midlands and Sheffield by 2032 and the plans for electrification of the Midland Main Line were due to be completed in 2023 under the revised dates the Government may have scrapped the Midland Main Line electrification on the grounds that there was little point in electrifying a line that would be superseded in 9 years.

How will the line be superseded when the closest HS2 gets to anywhere in the East Midlands is Toton? Other than those suburbs around Toton no where else has any real benefit. The A52 is a nightmare during the rush hour, especially around J25.
 

RichmondCommu

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Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked here. Heard this avvo that Bi-mode trains are due by 2022, apparently, so I guess you've all got about 5 years left to enjoy "proper" trains on the MML before the HSTs are retired and it goes full "plastic". I do hope that some of the EMT rakes are preserved, as from an enthusiast standpoint the VP185s, original light clusters and retained IC70 seating make them a far more authentic article. Certainly the best mainline thrash one can experience without going to the provinces nowadays. :p

I'm sure regular travelers from Nottingham are thinking every cloud..... :roll:
 

Senex

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Quoted improvement of 20 minutes from Sheffield and Nottingham to London in the peaks, but some (all?) of that is due to the removal of any stops by those trains south of Kettering, and some Kettering stops removed as well
Yes, they're real weasel words. I wonder what the improvement of times for off-peak fast services will be -- i.e. London - Leicester - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield. I rather doubt that even if the civil engineering at Market Harborough, Leicester, and Derby all gets done it will be more than 5 or 6 minutes.
 
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