Missing DMU/EMU Classes

[theboywho]

The Class 418s for Tyneside suburban services are the exception to the rule, basically a 2-EPB for use in the NorthEast.

These units were outside the TOPS classification, no?

 

[Oswyntail]

These units were outside the TOPS classification, no?

TOPS was put in place after the units moved south, IIRC, and were to a SR design

 

[theblackwatch]

Isn't that done to make it easy for operators to be able to use just the last three digits of a unit number? It works for the 14x and 15x DMUs and I suspect that when the 16x, 17x and 18x classes were introduced there wasn't any duplication of three last three digits of a unit number that a TOC operated.

142 0xx
150 1xx
150 2xx
153 3xx
156 4xx
156 5xx
143 6xx
158 7xx
158 8xx
158 9xx

With the 15x units obviously there was an attempt to match the last three digits of a coach number to a unit number as well.

Except the 143s were 1430xx to start with (being renumbered into the 1436xx series when they received new engines IIRC, in a similar way that 142s were renumbered into the 1425xx series). In fact all the Pacer types started with the '0' series initially (140-144).

 

[g4mby]

Except the 143s were 1430xx to start with (being renumbered into the 1436xx series when they received new engines IIRC, in a similar way that 142s were renumbered into the 1425xx series). In fact all the Pacer types started with the '0' series initially (140-144).

Of course. But may be they took 6xxx numbers as that was the only series unused by DMUs at the time?

 

[starrymarkb]

the 6xx series was reserved for the Scotrail 157s...

 

[g4mby]

the 6xx series was reserved for the Scotrail 157s...

Reserved. But unused.

 

[Class377/5]

Except there isn't a "normal or common order, form, or rule." Of the MU classes in use today:

Numbered starting with xxx001: 139, 142, 144, 150, 165, 168, 172, 175, 220, 222, 313, 319, 332, 333, 334, 357, 376, 379, 380, 390, 395, 444, 450, 458, 465, 466, 507 (total 27)

Numbered starting with something else: 143, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 166, 170, 171, 180, 185, 221, 314, 315, 317, 318, 320, 321, 322, 323, 350, 360, 365, 375, 377, 378, 442, 455, 508 (total 29)

So that's slightly over half of the classes which do not start at xxx001. There's no way you can call that an anomaly.

Just remembered the 350's actually began with the 350/0 not the 350/1.

 

[Eagle]

Just remembered the 350's actually began with the 350/0 not the 350/1.

Well, just the one unit which was never used in passenger service, which is now part of some 360/2s.

Actually speaking of the 350s, the LM ones seem to be numbered so that the last two digits are unique:

350101 to 130
350231 to 267
350368 to 377 (to be built).

But the TPE ones will be 350401 to 410 (not 478 to 487).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

142 0xx
150 1xx
150 2xx
153 3xx
156 4xx
156 5xx
143 6xx
158 7xx
158 8xx
158 9xx

The first two 150s were 150 0xx, making the full sprinter list (bearing in mind 159s were ordered as 158s)

150 0xx (also used by 154 for a short time)
150 1xx
150 2xx
155 3xx (converted to 153 3xx except 341-347)
156 4xx
156 5xx
157 6xx (not used)
158 7xx
158 8xx
158 9xx

 

[Class377/5]

Well, just the one unit which was never used in passenger service, which is now part of some 360/2s.

Actually speaking of the 350s, the LM ones seem to be numbered so that the last two digits are unique:

350101 to 130
350231 to 267
350368 to 377 (to be built).

But the TPE ones will be 350401 to 410 (not 478 to 487).

There were four built, only one came to the UK and none entered service until being rebuilt into the 360/2.

I was surprised the TPE units didn't continue the number system.

 

[theblackwatch]

Of course. But may be they took 6xxx numbers as that was the only series unused by DMUs at the time?

They took the 6xx series because the 142s took the 5xx series, and the 144s were due to take the 7xx and the 141(113) was due to become 813 - giving all the PACERS a single series. However, it was abandoned - only Heaton had ever bothered to do any renumberings.

 

[34D]

They took the 6xx series because the 142s took the 5xx series, and the 144s were due to take the 7xx and the 141(113) was due to become 813 - giving all the PACERS a single series. However, it was abandoned - only Heaton had ever bothered to do any renumberings.

Wasn't this to do with what pacers had which engine/gearbox type?

 

[455driver]

IIRC, this stemmed from the way some areas, particularly SR, referred to the units by the final 3 or four digits, rather than with the whole class number. Hence, if you had a mixture of classes, if they all started at 001 there might be confusion. The SR were particularly recalcitrant about class numbers anyway, insisting that eg the 411s would only have the 1nnn numbers actually applied, hence requiring odd out of place numbering (All perfectly logical, before I get flamed)

Some SWT departments still carry that on at least for the elctrics-
444xxx= 4xxx
450xxx= 0xxx
455xxx= 5xxx (as numbered on the front of the unit)
458xxx= 8xxx (as numbered on the front of the unit)

We can see it on some prep sheets plus some of us use it for fault reporting, I have never been pulled for it and everyone understands it.

 

[causton]

Some SWT departments still carry that on at least for the elctrics-
444xxx= 4xxx
450xxx= 0xxx
455xxx= 5xxx (as numbered on the front of the unit)
458xxx= 8xxx (as numbered on the front of the unit)

We can see it on some prep sheets plus some of us use it for fault reporting, I have never been pulled for it and everyone understands it.

Are there any 458xxx that could be mistaken as 158xxx and similar?
...

Is there any way of working out which 360/2 cars were part of 350s? any noticeable differences or numbers to look out for?

 

[Eagle]

Are there any 458xxx that could be mistaken as 158xxx and similar?

458s are numbered from 001 to 030 and soon 501 to 536. There are no 158s in the country numbered lower than 701 (SWT's are 880 to 890).

Also 458s and 158s don't share track anywhere, although they'll run alongside each other between Clapham Junction and Waterloo (on the Windsor and Main lines respectively).

 

[455driver]

Are there any 458xxx that could be mistaken as 158xxx and similar?

The 458 are numbered 001-030 and
the 158 are numbered 880-890
so not likely.
...

Is there any way of working out which 360/2 cars were part of 350s? any noticeable differences or numbers to look out for?

Never knew about the 360/350 link, but the first lot of bodyshells used on the 350s were intended for the 5 coach 450 order for SWT, when the DafT (or whoever) tried to cancel the order Siemens had already finished quite a few of the bodyshells and the penalties the DafT (or whoever) would have had to pay would have been huge so the 350/1s were ordered instead simply by adding a pantograph and transformer to the order, this is the reason the 350/1s had 3rd rail shoes even though they would not work on the 3rd rail in normal service*.

* Yes I know about Southern borrowing some later on but that was more by luck than judgement that the equipment was still available to be refitted to them.

 

[theblackwatch]

Wasn't this to do with what pacers had which engine/gearbox type?

Yes that was the plan. For some reason the renumbering got abandoned though and the 1425xx numbered units reverted to their original set numbers.

 

[455driver]

Also 458s and 158s don't share track anywhere, although they'll run alongside each other between Clapham Junction and Waterloo (on the Windsor and Main lines respectively).

Pedant mode-

Oh yes they do!

There are several sets of 458 empties which run between Wimbledon and Waterloo on the mainline, also one set (as required) which run between Aldershot (and so Pirbright jn) and Wimbledon and return to Guildford.

Okay its scraping the barrel a bit but it still counts!

Pedant mode off.

 

[bb21]

The individual vehicle numbering system doesn't always follow a rational pattern. On 170s, DMOSA, MOS, and DMOSB are 50xxx, 56xxx and 79xxx respectively. But on older EMUs this didn't always happen, ie 314 DMOS are numbered consecutively after each other so that all A end were even, and odd for B end.

170/1's have 55xxx as opposed to 56xxx.

I can only assume that the higher subclasses of 170's took 56xxx as the upper end of the 55xxx series had already been taken by Pacers.

 

[cjmillsnun]

159s start at 001 for the original batch

Indeed, and the second batch are 159/1 because they have differently rated engines

 

[Class377/5]

Is there any way of working out which 360/2 cars were part of 350s? any noticeable differences or numbers to look out for?

According to platform 5 its the middle carriage that the new one (others were built 2002-06, where as middle carriage is 2005-2006).

According to what's been stated they were reversed numbered so;

350001 became 360204
350002 became 360203
350003 became 360202
350004 became 360201

360205 was a new build.

Never knew about the 360/350 link, but the first lot of bodyshells used on the 350s were intended for the 5 coach 450 order for SWT, when the DafT (or whoever) tried to cancel the order Siemens had already finished quite a few of the bodyshells and the penalties the DafT (or whoever) would have had to pay would have been huge so the 350/1s were ordered instead simply by adding a pantograph and transformer to the order, this is the reason the 350/1s had 3rd rail shoes even though they would not work on the 3rd rail in normal service*.

* Yes I know about Southern borrowing some later on but that was more by luck than judgement that the equipment was still available to be refitted to them.

The 350/0 were original spot hire units with only 350001 making it to the UK and never worked under its own power but was shunted around Northam depot in pieces.

The 350/1 were part of the 450 order (rumored to have been 450/1's) as a five car variant. The SRA abandoned the plan after funding out the infrastructure works would top £1bn so they were diverted instead to the 350/1 and they had to re-arrange the order during construction.

There was a 12 car 350/1 run on the SWML with a picture of them at Basingstoke.

 

[southern442]

Could have something to do with software/usage by two different operators/or 377 units having external CCTV whereas 375s do not.

There actually is a difference between 375's and 377's, and that is that 377's have got something (camera i believe?) mounted next to the cab door.

 

[starrymarkb]

There actually is a difference between 375's and 377's, and that is that 377's have got something (camera i believe?) mounted next to the cab door.

Yep 377s have External CCTV for the doors, those are the pods mounted on the leading left hand corner of each coach

 

[RobShipway]

Yep 377s have External CCTV for the doors, those are the pods mounted on the leading left hand corner of each coach

Does that include the 375's that where later re - numbered 377's with the addition of the Dellner couplers?

 

[southern442]

Does that include the 375's that where later re - numbered 377's with the addition of the Dellner couplers?

Yes it does.