Missing DMU/EMU Classes

[RPM]

Class 167 - Why was the Class 168 not this?

167 was the original class number proposed for these units but Adrian Shooter thought 168 had a nicer ring to it and so requested that it be changed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Just a question, what makes a fleet have to change sub class? For example, the 91's were all changed to 91/1's when they were refitted. Why did they have to change sub class though? the 378/0's all changed to 378/2's when an extra carriage was added, but the 455/7's still retained their sub class when they were added with a 508 TSO. Why?

The 91s were heavily modified internally; there's a lot of equipment differences between them now compared to pre-overhaul.

The 455/7s are exactly that... a separate sub class because they have the former 508 trailers in them. They never ran either as 3 cars or formed with 4 class 455 vehicles either.

 

[starrymarkb]

Something I might add - the 400 series pre privatisation was logical but not consecutive...

If I remember correctly - x=generation

4x1 - Express unit
4x2 - Express unit with catering
4x3 - 4 car Outer Suburban
4x4 - 2 car Outer Suburban
4x5 - 4 car Inner Suburban
4x6 - 2 car Inner Suburban

As an example the inner suburban

405 - 4 car SUB
415 - 4 car EPB
*big jump - assuming BR wanted modern stock out of the Slammer ranges*
445 - 4 car PEP Prototype
446 - 2 car PEP
455 - 4 car Mark 3 based
456 - 2 car Mark 3
465 - 4 car Networker
466 - 2 car Networker

And for Express
411 - CEP
412 - BEP
421 - CIG
422 - BIG
432 - REP
442 - Wessex

If the Desiros and Junipers had followed this sequence
Class 458 should be 443
Class 460 should be 441
Class 450 should be 453
Class 444 should be 452

 

[Helvellyn]

Something I might add - the 400 series pre privatisation was logical but not consecutive...

If I remember correctly - x=generation

4x1 - Express unit
4x2 - Express unit with catering
4x3 - 4 car Outer Suburban
4x4 - 2 car Outer Suburban
4x5 - 4 car Inner Suburban
4x6 - 2 car Inner Suburban

As an example the inner suburban

405 - 4 car SUB
415 - 4 car EPB
*big jump - assuming BR wanted modern stock out of the Slammer ranges*
445 - 4 car PEP Prototype
446 - 2 car PEP
455 - 4 car Mark 3 based
456 - 2 car Mark 3
465 - 4 car Networker
466 - 2 car Networker

And for Express
411 - CEP
412 - BEP
421 - CIG
422 - BIG
432 - REP
442 - Wessex

If the Desiros and Junipers had followed this sequence
Class 458 should be 443
Class 460 should be 441
Class 450 should be 453
Class 444 should be 452

I thought that the second number indicated improvements in electrical equipment (rule of thumb).

40x series were a mish-mash of SR types
41x series were the EPBs and CEPs/BEPs, either 51-type or 57-type
42x series were CIGS/BIGS/VEPS, all with 63-type equipment
43x series ware the REPs, with 66-type equipment
44x series originally the PEPs
45x series originally Mk3 dervied suburban
48x series was another mish-mash

442 then backfilled the 44x series (keeping the xx2 designation for buffet), as they were different enough to 45x series units
465/466 were logical, but 471 was going to be long distance Networker (not 461)

Then at privatisation it all went wrong!

 

[Eagle]

6XX — New-build DMU/DEMUs
7XX — New-build EMUs
8XX — New-build Intercity

Not quite; the 800 series is specifically reserved for high-speed EMUs.

900 series of course is for various departmental units (mainly Network Rail's).

 

[rebmcr]

Not quite; the 800 series is specifically reserved for high-speed EMUs.

Nope, the group standard calls it "High speed multiple unit / fixed formation sets", so not just EMUs.

 

[4SRKT]

To put it to bed, 500 series EMUs are categorically non-Southern DC sets. The 508s were built for Merseyside but diverted to the Southern for a few years with an extra car, removed and inserted into 455s. Hence their class number is consistent with the non-Southern definition.

 

[prod_pep]

Interestingly though, the 455s were initially to be allocated Class 510.

The situation with the 508s is rather confusing. My understanding is that they were intended for the SR (hence four cars) but even before delivery it became apparent they were only a short-term measure and were likely to move to Merseyside. This in mind, it may have been a last minute decision to number them 508.

 

[southern442]

The 91s were heavily modified internally; there's a lot of equipment differences between them now compared to pre-overhaul.

The 455/7s are exactly that... a separate sub class because they have the former 508 trailers in them. They never ran either as 3 cars or formed with 4 class 455 vehicles either.

But for the 91's, why do they have to move the whole fleet up to the /1 class rather then class it as a 'refit'?

 

[Eagle]

So you could tell the refitted ones from the non-refitted ones while the updates were going on.

 

[starrymarkb]

465/466 were logical, but 471 was going to be long distance Networker (not 461)

I wonder if the plan was for IGBT traction which would explain an Electrical class jump?

 

[delt1c]

But for the 91's, why do they have to move the whole fleet up to the /1 class rather then class it as a 'refit'?

The refurbishment of the 91 fleet was done overa period of time with refurbished and non refurbished operating side by side. Adding 1xx to refurbished machines helped identify the refurbished machines. Then when the full class was done they were left as 91/1.
Same thing went for the 317/6 when they were refurbished

 

[ert47]

And even more confusing to me; why the Southern 375s were reclassified as 377/3 when their Tightlock couplers were replaced with the Dellner type. But Southeastern's 375s were not reclassified after the same work.

Could have something to do with software/usage by two different operators/or 377 units having external CCTV whereas 375s do not.

 

[table38]

Another anomaly is that all of the Class 185s are numbered as 185/1

 

[D365]

Another anomaly is that all of the Class 185s are numbered as 185/1

Not an anomaly at all, happens all the time.

Merseyrail, when they took on the 508 fleet (after temporary use in the south with the trailer cars being reused in the 455/7 build - explained earlier), renumbered the lot into the /1 series to avoid confusion with the existing 507 fleet. Later, when several units were 'pinched' for SE and Watford DC (most of which are breaking up at Eastleigh), these were renumbered into the /2 and /3 series.

All 317s were initially numbered consecutively in the 3173xx series despite being otherwise designated as /1 and /2. Refurbished and renumbered units sport the 'correct' subclass, which helped to distinguish units which had been refurbished.

Class 350 starts at 350101 - seems like a half-baked attempt to avoid the 450 range? Many other classes started in the /1 (or greater) range from new.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could have something to do with software/usage by two different operators/or 377 units having external CCTV whereas 375s do not.

I think that's it, slight differences...

 

[table38]

Not an anomaly at all, happens all the time.

Anomaly = "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule." I didn't say "unique"

 

[D365]

Anomaly = "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule." I didn't say "unique"

Fair enough, but there isn't a rule that says that when a new class is assigned numbers must begin at xxx001.

 

[g4mby]

Fair enough, but there isn't a rule that says that when a new class is assigned numbers must begin at xxx001.

Isn't that done to make it easy for operators to be able to use just the last three digits of a unit number? It works for the 14x and 15x DMUs and I suspect that when the 16x, 17x and 18x classes were introduced there wasn't any duplication of three last three digits of a unit number that a TOC operated.

142 0xx
150 1xx
150 2xx
153 3xx
156 4xx
156 5xx
143 6xx
158 7xx
158 8xx
158 9xx

With the 15x units obviously there was an attempt to match the last three digits of a coach number to a unit number as well.

 

[Eagle]

Anomaly = "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule." I didn't say "unique"

Except there isn't a "normal or common order, form, or rule." Of the MU classes in use today:

Numbered starting with xxx001: 139, 142, 144, 150, 165, 168, 172, 175, 220, 222, 313, 319, 332, 333, 334, 357, 376, 379, 380, 390, 395, 444, 450, 458, 465, 466, 507 (total 27)

Numbered starting with something else: 143, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 166, 170, 171, 180, 185, 221, 314, 315, 317, 318, 320, 321, 322, 323, 350, 360, 365, 375, 377, 378, 442, 455, 508 (total 29)

So that's slightly over half of the classes which do not start at xxx001. There's no way you can call that an anomaly.

 

[starrymarkb]

159s start at 001 for the original batch

 

[ert47]

I thought the 378s were introduced as 3 car 378/0, but then when they had the 4th car added, they were renumbered 378/2.

 

[Class377/5]

And now we have the class 700/0 & 700/1 to add in. Which will be as new as the class 345!

Does IEP have a classification yet?

I thought the 378s were introduced as 3 car 378/0, but then when they had the 4th car added, they were renumbered 378/2.

They were. It did make sense as

378/0 - three car DV units
378/1 - four car DC units
378/2 - four car DV units

As they were introduced in that order it makes sense.

 

[table38]

There's no way you can call that an anomaly.

I still think that for the 185s it is.

I could understand if they had been numbered in the 185/1 range to avoid a conflict with the outgoing 158s, or the 170/3s, or maybe at a pinch even the 350/4s if they were really thinking that far ahead!

I could also understand it if they had been planning a massive roll-out of 185s with different specs, maybe to be used by multiple franchises, although even the 172s have a 172/0 subclass.

Maybe it's like Star Trek Movies, where the even number movies are judged to be inferior to the odds

Although thanks to Eagle, I have learnt the rule is "there is no rule"

---- edit ----

I just thought, was there always a plan to cascade the 185s elsewhere when they were built? Maybe that would explain it

 

[Oswyntail]

IIRC, this stemmed from the way some areas, particularly SR, referred to the units by the final 3 or four digits, rather than with the whole class number. Hence, if you had a mixture of classes, if they all started at 001 there might be confusion. The SR were particularly recalcitrant about class numbers anyway, insisting that eg the 411s would only have the 1nnn numbers actually applied, hence requiring odd out of place numbering (All perfectly logical, before I get flamed)
In some types, such as the 170s, of course the unit number started with the sub-class number

 

[12CSVT]

Except there isn't a "normal or common order, form, or rule." Of the MU classes in use today:

Numbered starting with xxx001: 139, 142, 144, 150, 165, 168, 172, 175, 220, 222, 313, 319, 332, 333, 334, 357, 376, 379, 380, 390, 395, 444, 450, 458, 465, 466, 507 (total 27)

Numbered starting with something else: 143, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 166, 170, 171, 180, 185, 221, 314, 315, 317, 318, 320, 321, 322, 323, 350, 360, 365, 375, 377, 378, 442, 455, 508 (total 29)

So that's slightly over half of the classes which do not start at xxx001. There's no way you can call that an anomaly.

One possible anomaly is with the 357s. We have 357/0 and 357/2 but not 357/1.

 

[harry42]

On the pacer classes... There is/was 140, 141, 142 and 144. Was there ever a 139 or 145?

 

[g4mby]

Was there ever a 139 or 145?

For Class 139 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139.

I'm not sure I would call it a "Pacer" though.

 

[Eagle]

On the pacer classes... There is/was 140, 141, 142 and 144. Was there ever a 139 or 145?

You forgot 143.

Pacers started at 140 to jump forward from the last first-gen DMU, which was 131. Similarly Sprinters jumped forward again to 150. Since then new designs of DMU have gone forward in multiples of five or ten, with revisions of the designs going up one by one.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The SR were particularly recalcitrant about class numbers anyway, insisting that eg the 411s would only have the 1nnn numbers actually applied.

The first refurbished ones did carry their full six digit 411 5xx and 411 6xx numbers before the SR's top brass ordered only the last four digits.

Now it's only the SWT 455s ( and, until they get converted, 458s ) which carry only the last four digits. For a while, though, some 455/8s in what is now the SWT fleet did carry full six digit numbers for a few months on plates affixed about the cab windows.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surprised no-one has mentioned the sequential and semi-sequential numbering of the 317 and 319 fleets (as built)

317/1 = 317301-348
317/2 = 317349-372

319/0 = 319001-060
319/1 = 319161-186

I still think that for the 185s it is.

I could understand if they had been numbered in the 185/1 range to avoid a conflict with the outgoing 158s, or the 170/3s, or maybe at a pinch even the 350/4s if they were really thinking that far ahead!....

They match the vehicle numbers.

54101 + 53101 + 51101 = 185101
54102 + 53102 + 51102 = 185102
Etc....

Maybe it's like Star Trek Movies, where the even number movies are judged to be inferior to the odds ....

Except that the evens are universally recognised as superior to the odds, with II (Wrath of Khan) and VI (The Undiscovered Country) being the best of the lot (although IV (The Voyage Home) does come awfully close to ruining that theory).