Most of them are still and Doncaster.
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Ministers mull re-opening Great Central
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Most of them are still and Doncaster.
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Hmn yes, but then we could say the same thing about HSL 1 heading through Kent and into East London. Oh I know what the area is like, my sister lives about 2 or 3 miles from there.
Meld
Member
No, it's just you!
Billions are being spent on the railways across the country, and don't forget Thameslink and Crossrail, so this 'anti railway' government has actually agreed to build new railways...
Yes but Crossrail is only now possible because London is getting the 2012 Olympics and it now fits in with Red Kens transport strategy for London
No, it's just you!
Billions are being spent on the railways across the country, and don't forget Thameslink and Crossrail, so this 'anti railway' government has actually agreed to build new railways...
Unfortunately government spending on railways infrastructure assumes that in the south west the railway ends at Exeter,not surprisingly traditional longer distance rail use here is now in decline as vastly improved road and air links inceasingly take up the slack left by a backsliding railway in much of Devon/Cornwall.For instance since Crosscountry stopped running direct From the south west to the North west I have been told by a train manager they are not carrying half the passengers they did.FGW is also struggling big time from Plymouth in particular,the infrastructure and not the trains being the problem here.Plymouth to Exeter 52 rail miles with line speeds of 55/60mph between Newton Abbott and Plymouth now compares very unfavourably with the road equivelent the A38 Devon Expressway,ie 45 miles at 70/80 mph.
But even in other parts of the country, when comparing road to rail, depending on where you want to go it can be quicker to drive - it's not just Cornwall. I started driving from Bristol to Birmingham when there were engineering works in October and actually discovered it was quicker, even with a bit of Motorway congestion, than the normal train journey.
One big flaw with Intercity rail in the UK seems to me that it goes mostly from City Centre to City Centre, which isn't suitable for everyone. I'm lucky where I live, in that all IC trains call at Bristol Parkway, which is about a 10 min drive from my house, but for most CrossCountry services in Birmingham there isn't really an equivalent, bar Birmingham Intl, which is quite a bit south, in Solihull and not really that convenient, and is only served by 1tph on the Oxford line anyway.
My train journey is extended by about half having to get a bus from New St, or travel back on a train line you've just gone along non-stop.
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In response to Woody's point, although it's probably too soon to say, there are a lot of analysts who have said that there has been a growth in domestic air travel since the TT was recast, although it's also worth noting that the average XC journey is less than 80 miles.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3090583.ece
One big flaw with Intercity rail in the UK seems to me that it goes mostly from City Centre to City Centre, which isn't suitable for everyone. I'm lucky where I live, in that all IC trains call at Bristol Parkway, which is about a 10 min drive from my house, but for most CrossCountry services in Birmingham there isn't really an equivalent, bar Birmingham Intl, which is quite a bit south, in Solihull and not really that convenient, and is only served by 1tph on the Oxford line anyway.
My train journey is extended by about half having to get a bus from New St, or travel back on a train line you've just gone along non-stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In response to Woody's point, although it's probably too soon to say, there are a lot of analysts who have said that there has been a growth in domestic air travel since the TT was recast, although it's also worth noting that the average XC journey is less than 80 miles.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3090583.ece
Yes, most journeys are around 80 miles, and most people are travelling to city centres. To be frank that's just another biased article from the Times, and Ben Webster should know better. It's not supported in the figures. Domestic flights are even falling from London-Glasgow recently.
'Improvements to long distance rail travel combined with delays at airports have dramatically slowed the growth in air passenger numbers, the Civil Aviation Authority has disclosed.
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) report found that while budget airlines such as Ryanair and easyJet continued to attract new customers at the rate of 10 per cent a year, the number of people taking charter flights was now falling.
Worst hit was domestic air travel, which slipped by 1.4 per cent in the past 12 months while international holiday flights, accounting for a third of all journeys by air, are growing at just 0.2 per cent.
This has helped slash the long-term trend of air passenger growth since the mid-1970s from 6 per cent to just 2 per cent since 2005, the CAA said.
The report's authors say the economy and the ease of rail travel was driving the downturn rather than people giving up air travel to help the environment.'
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article3331280.ece
also more on the original article
http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=4650
'Improvements to long distance rail travel combined with delays at airports have dramatically slowed the growth in air passenger numbers, the Civil Aviation Authority has disclosed.
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) report found that while budget airlines such as Ryanair and easyJet continued to attract new customers at the rate of 10 per cent a year, the number of people taking charter flights was now falling.
Worst hit was domestic air travel, which slipped by 1.4 per cent in the past 12 months while international holiday flights, accounting for a third of all journeys by air, are growing at just 0.2 per cent.
This has helped slash the long-term trend of air passenger growth since the mid-1970s from 6 per cent to just 2 per cent since 2005, the CAA said.
The report's authors say the economy and the ease of rail travel was driving the downturn rather than people giving up air travel to help the environment.'
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article3331280.ece
also more on the original article
http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=4650
16CSVT2700
Established Member
They should never have closed the GCR in the first place.
Continental loading guage, a more centrally sited Nottingham Victoria with 12 platforms opposed to Midlands 6/7..
Hell I don't know.. Certainly would be a good thing if it were!
Continental loading guage, a more centrally sited Nottingham Victoria with 12 platforms opposed to Midlands 6/7..
Hell I don't know.. Certainly would be a good thing if it were!
Please no !!!! At the moment places like Wellingborough and Kettering get a half-decent quick service to London c/o EMT. Electrify northwards and we'll end up with a stop-everywhere EMU
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Back on topic......
The trackbed from Calvert to Rugby is largely available, in the most part it's either abandoned or farmland. The one challenge would be Brackley because the viaduct was removed in the mid-70s by BR trying to avoid the maintenance costs. Also now is the A43 Towcester - Oxford road crossing roughly where the line was.
If you go through some of the villages in the Warks / Northants borders e.g. Woodford Halse you can still clearly see where the railway was.
Please no !!!! At the moment places like Wellingborough and Kettering get a half-decent quick service to London c/o EMT. Electrify northwards and we'll end up with a stop-everywhere EMU
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Aren't the services that stop at Wellingborough and Kettering an all shacks EMT service anyway
Not 350 but 377. But what I mean by "All Shack" is that the EMT services running to those two stations, stop everywhere anyway.
Ermm, since when have any EMT services stopped there?
Lewisham2221
Established Member
I think that was the point...
16CSVT2700
Established Member
Owned would be the expression!
I think he means All-shacks expresses meaning all shacks north of Bedford, i.e Wellingborough/Kettering/Market Harborough/Leicester/Loughborough/randomplace 1/randomplace 2 etc..
Lewisham2221
Established Member
Indeed, but the point still stands that it is a 'fast' service from Wellingborough/Kettering to London.
As we are talking about EMT services, I would of thought that it might of been clear I meant the EMT stopping pattern.
But to clear it up, Wellingborough and Kettering mostly get all Shack services anyway. For example. They get the services as Jamie stated that stop at Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leciester, Loughborough then onto Beeston and Nottingham.
So moaning that you don't want the MML to be electrified because Wellingborough and Kettering will get stopper services is void. But still, just because it gets electrified doesn't mean the FCC units will stop everywhere.
Wellingborough -> Bedford -> Luton Airport Parkway/Luton -> St Albans -> St Pancras International (Low level) -> Onto Brighton.
ah-media
Member
In answer to the question about the track at Rugby: South of the WCML it is a nature trail. There is a good 3 or 4 miles (down to Onley) that is just ripe for relaying track. The old platforms under Hillmorton Road are still there but not sure of their condition now.
There used to be a bridge going over the WCML some 300 yards east of Rugby Station called the Girder Bridge. Sadley it was removed earler this year. The bridge used to carry the GC over the WCML.
The other side is a much different story. There are industrial estates and housing estates right in the line where the track used to go.
Of course, you could link into Rugby station very easily from the GC, especially with the new platforms. You can go over the road at South Street and curve round before you get to the ASC.
A.
There used to be a bridge going over the WCML some 300 yards east of Rugby Station called the Girder Bridge. Sadley it was removed earler this year. The bridge used to carry the GC over the WCML.
The other side is a much different story. There are industrial estates and housing estates right in the line where the track used to go.
Of course, you could link into Rugby station very easily from the GC, especially with the new platforms. You can go over the road at South Street and curve round before you get to the ASC.
A.
That's my home village! Wow, I didn't know anybody outside of it had heard of it! There was talk a few years back of reopening the railway through there, but there was so much oposition that they didn't. I'm glad, because it would have been about 50 yards from my family's house!
Most of the trackbed through the village is owned by somebody called Fountain I think.
I'd suggest looking at how the services at Huntingdon on the ECML changed post electrification as that's a similar size to Wellingborough / Kettering.
Pre electrification there was the DMU service to Hitchin augmented by HST / Semi fast loco hauled services which ran fast to London (possibly stopping at Stevenage). Nowdays virtually everything stops all stations to Stevenage then FP / KX.
I reckon what would be more likely if the MML was electrified to either Kettering, Corby or Leicester is the services to Wellingborough / Kettering would be all stations to Luton / Luton Airport then fast into London, which would be a degradation from what is provided today, particularly as it would either be Cl 319, 350 or 377s compared to currently Meridians and HSTs
That's what, three extra stops which may add about 10mins or so if that. Also, I'd say all EMU's have quicker acceleration than any DMU (maybe not the 185). The max Line speed is about 100/110 between Leicester and Luton so wouldn't loose that much speed either. But you would still have your EMT services going north of these electrified places.
So you would keep your Leicester -> London semi fast/fast services, and loose 10mins or so if you went from Kettering/Wellingborough via FCC which of course if those 10mins are too time costing, you can get the EMT services.
Except it's highly unlikely that EMT would keep their stopping pattern unchanged, with Wellingborough and Kettering losing out. It would depend where the electrification went to - if only Kettering then Wellingborough would definately lose it's EMT services and be lumbered with FCC. If the wires went to Leicester then I reckon Market Harborough and Kettering would also lose their EMT services.
There's no way that EMT would continue a 2tph service if FCC were also providing. Instead they'd probably seek to speed up Leicester - London services.
Look at Luton, Luton Airport Parkway and Bedford. Though mainly served by FCC, EMT also serve regular trains. Though I do agree EMT would probably run less trains to intermediate stations between London and Leicester, I think EMT would still run to the stations. Simply for competition.
Its difficult for me to see where these vastly improved road and air links are!
i started regularly travelling from the South Coast to Plymouth in the early 1990s. Since that time there has been no improvement that I can think of at all between London and Plymouth on the M4/M5/A38 route-I think the last improvement was the completion of the A38 expressway in the mid 1980s! On the A30/A 303 route I think about 12 miles of dual carriageway has opened since 1990.
Improved airlinks? I think Plymouth has 3 planes a day to Gatwick wheras in 1990 it served Heathrow using Dash propellor aircraft. Plymouth is such an important market for SWair that some planes actually only call there on the way back from Newquay! I reckon all the passengers departing Plymouth Airport in a day could comfortably fit on one of the nearly empty HSTs that FGW send from Plymouth every hour.
Given the demand that exists I reckon Plymouth is probably over provided with trains and they would be better off re-allocating them to London-Exeter services with a DMU connection to Plymouth.
Kneedown
Established Member
I believe you are worrying about nothing there. Services north of Bedford are not within FCC's remit. They are within the remit of EMT and no-one else. A more likely scenario would be the shortened formations of the ICE programme.
The electrification of the entire MML is long, LONG overdue!
But when/If FCC ever get north of Bedford, it will be both.
Kneedown
Established Member
More a case of "If", rather than "when" methinks. They can't just suddenly decide to run where they like as it's not in their franchise. EMT can't suddenly turn round and decide to run through trains to Brighton even if they had the units and they wanted to, as it's not part of the franchise.
Electrification through to Corby was on the plans for many years but flounded during the recession in the 90's. Once Thameslink 2011 is complete theres no reason why it couldnt be back on the agenda. To me a 377 in 2+2 seating like the 377/1s and /3s used on the Brighton Express would be far superior to a Meridian especially on a line with a line speed of 100-110 mph like the MML.
Kneedown
Established Member
And an ICE in short formation would in all probability be far superior to a 377!
If Meridians were suddenly converted to electric, as opposed to diesel, removing all the noise and vibration, what would you think then?
On the subject of electrification
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/RSSB_Electrification2007.pdf
The Department for Transport (DfT) and the railway industry wish to develop a long-term
traction energy strategy for the British rail network, consistent with overall government
strategy for sustainability. This study for the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) aims
to inform that strategy by assessing the long term economic case for further electrification of the mainline 25 kV ac rail network. The study has taken into account current best
information on whole life costs, long term fuel cost and availability and of EU and UK
sustainability policy. The outputs of the study will advise the Government and industry of the
material issues that will affect strategic investment decisions on the costs and impacts of
further electrification and hence will inform the procurement of long term assets (rolling stock
and infrastructure). Currently, 39% of the UK main line network is electrified. The majority (63%) of this electrified network is on the 25 kV ac overhead system, with the bulk of the remainder on the 750 V dc third rail system. This study considers only the 25 kV ac overhead system, both in terms of extension of electrification and in terms of the possible removal of existing overhead line equipment. The study was not required to consider the third rail system or the replacement of current diesel traction with alternative portable traction energy sources.
Anyway, they looked at the MML: Case for OHL
GWML: Case for OHL
De-wiring northern ECML: No case
Chiltern: No case at present
Cross country: No case at present
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/RSSB_Electrification2007.pdf
The Department for Transport (DfT) and the railway industry wish to develop a long-term
traction energy strategy for the British rail network, consistent with overall government
strategy for sustainability. This study for the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) aims
to inform that strategy by assessing the long term economic case for further electrification of the mainline 25 kV ac rail network. The study has taken into account current best
information on whole life costs, long term fuel cost and availability and of EU and UK
sustainability policy. The outputs of the study will advise the Government and industry of the
material issues that will affect strategic investment decisions on the costs and impacts of
further electrification and hence will inform the procurement of long term assets (rolling stock
and infrastructure). Currently, 39% of the UK main line network is electrified. The majority (63%) of this electrified network is on the 25 kV ac overhead system, with the bulk of the remainder on the 750 V dc third rail system. This study considers only the 25 kV ac overhead system, both in terms of extension of electrification and in terms of the possible removal of existing overhead line equipment. The study was not required to consider the third rail system or the replacement of current diesel traction with alternative portable traction energy sources.
Anyway, they looked at the MML: Case for OHL
GWML: Case for OHL
De-wiring northern ECML: No case
Chiltern: No case at present
Cross country: No case at present
Shouldnt it be: Re-wiring the ECML, seen as it seems like the weakest as i hear of the lines blowing down more than any other, and upgrading the power on the Skipton line.
They should also think about double tracking the GEML in some places and the West Anglia too.
Dumb question, is converting a DMU/DEMU to EMU or a hybrid possible?
They should also think about double tracking the GEML in some places and the West Anglia too.
Dumb question, is converting a DMU/DEMU to EMU or a hybrid possible?
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