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Migrants simply walking into Britain

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Xenophon PCDGS

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And what is an atheist army, anyway?

I think that the Korean People's Army under its "Beloved Leader" supreme commander might well fit the answer that you seek.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
However, this isn't a theological or ecclesiastical forum....

That may well be the case, but there are quite a number of forum members who can argue matters on such topics in threads that can impinge upon those named areas, having a very deep knowledge of those two subjects.
 
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anme

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http://news.sky.com/story/1565191/immigrants-held-after-walking-to-folkestone



This is completely unacceptable, I cannot believe that Eurotunnel is so utterly hopeless and has allowed this to happen.
If you can't make something as enclosed as a tunnel secure then you're simply incompetent, there is no excuse whatsoever.

These 3 could have quite easily planted a bomb, unleashed chemicals, anything at all is possible.

This tunnel should surely be ranked alongside nuclear and military establishments and have 24 hr armed guards because when it is blown up it will be too late.

I don't want to scare you, but you should be aware that most cars are not searched before they enter the tunnel. Or go on a ferry. Or park underneath tall buildings.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't want to scare you, but you should be aware that most cars are not searched before they enter the tunnel. Or go on a ferry. Or park underneath tall buildings.

And despite this, the Tunnel, ferries and tall buildings do not go "bang" very often at all.

Are we worrying about basically nothing?
 

Haydn1971

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I don't understand this. Is anyone arguing that France is not a safe country? I think not. So these people are already in a place of safety. Why do they have any further claim for asylum on us if they try to invade through the tunnel? Why should they not be sent straight back -- or tried and convicted of being illegally on Eurotunnel property and sent back with a criminal record?


I'm at odds with this - where is the place that these people should be sent back to ?

- Where they came from ? Syria, under ISIS, State, Rebel, Kurd or whoever else made them want to leave
- Turkey / Greece, where they first enter a civilised "western" nation, of that could be Ukraine, Finland or even Spain
- To the point where they enter Schengen Zone
- To the point where they enter the EU economic giants, the German Border, outside the Channel Tunnel fence ????

It's not about France, Italy, Greece or even Turkey being safe, it's about being accepted - Germany currently has a publicly high need for migrant workers, I'd argue that the UK has too to back fill all the professional roles we are crying out for skills in (medicine, science, teaching & engineering) plus the countless carer and manual jobs where we have a underclass of scum that won't work, so why not give the jobs to someone who's had the tenacity to travel around the globe to work here.

The developed world has a duty of care to look after these refugees and not just dismiss them as economic migrants - Europe, USA, Russia, China and all the usual other arms suppliers need to face up to the chaos they have created through the arms and oil trade and the political manipulation that goes with it.
 

AM9

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And despite this, the Tunnel, ferries and tall buildings do not go "bang" very often at all.

Are we worrying about basically nothing?

It's strange that many constantly agonise over the possibility of death/injury through a high profile terrorist incident where the actual risk to a normal citizen is minimal, yet willingly undertake activities daily where the risk is much higher.
I don't know what the total K/SI figures for the last 10 years (or more) are from terrorist activities compared with accidents in the home (mostly avoidable) or road accidents, but I'm sure that it is much much lower.
If the potential for being killed by other than natural causes worries anybody, they should check the facts (preferably not by reading sensational reports in the press) and plan their activities accordingly. Life is full of real risks that you have no control over, - get over it.
 

Haydn1971

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I don't know what the total K/SI figures for the last 10 years (or more) are from terrorist activities compared with accidents in the home (mostly avoidable) or road accidents, but I'm sure that it is much much lower.


According to RoSPA, there's 14,000 deaths a year in the UK due to accidents and off the top of my head about 1700 of theses are road deaths IIRC. UK deaths by terrorism in the last 10 years ? 58 including 56 in the single event that was the London Bombings - an average of 5 a year.

Globally the death toll from terrorism has averaged about 18,000 a year, although 2014 saw a peak of nearly 33,000. Globally, 1.24 million killed in road collisions in 2010.
 

bramling

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It's strange that many constantly agonise over the possibility of death/injury through a high profile terrorist incident where the actual risk to a normal citizen is minimal, yet willingly undertake activities daily where the risk is much higher.
I don't know what the total K/SI figures for the last 10 years (or more) are from terrorist activities compared with accidents in the home (mostly avoidable) or road accidents, but I'm sure that it is much much lower.
If the potential for being killed by other than natural causes worries anybody, they should check the facts (preferably not by reading sensational reports in the press) and plan their activities accordingly. Life is full of real risks that you have no control over, - get over it.

I agree that the risk from terrorism is probably fairly low, however this doesn't make it acceptable for people to be able to freely access the tunnel. At the least it introduces the potential for delays and disruption if someone gets hit by a train, or if a train needs to be cautioned (which presumably happens if someone is seen in the tunnel?).

I can understand the terminal might be hard to fully secure due to its sheer size, however it should not be difficult to secure three tunnel portals.

Since this forum seems to have adopted a relaxed attitude towards track access (see the Bristol thread), I fancy a walk through the tunnel to get some unusual photos. Wonder how that would be received?
 

AM9

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I agree that the risk from terrorism is probably fairly low, however this doesn't make it acceptable for people to be able to freely access the tunnel. At the least it introduces the potential for delays and disruption if someone gets hit by a train, or if a train needs to be cautioned (which presumably happens if someone is seen in the tunnel?).

I can understand the terminal might be hard to fully secure due to its sheer size, however it should not be difficult to secure three tunnel portals.

Since this forum seems to have adopted a relaxed attitude towards track access (see the Bristol thread), I fancy a walk through the tunnel to get some unusual photos. Wonder how that would be received?

OK, so as a convenience factor we don't want people wandering onto tracks in tunnels or elsewhere, but the comments that I was responding to relate to the bodily risk to passengers et al because of explosions etc., (which have largely been discounted as a generally impractical proposition) caused by terrorist action. I suspect that those comments were conflating migrants and terrorist actions to capitalise on the fear factor.
 

Philip Phlopp

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I don't want to scare you, but you should be aware that most cars are not searched before they enter the tunnel. Or go on a ferry. Or park underneath tall buildings.

As several of us have said, it's bloody difficult to demolish something just by using an improvised explosive device.

If you look at the sheer quantity of explosives the IRA needed to cause the damage they did in Manchester - 1,500kg. That is more than many explosive demolition contractors will use in a year, and whilst not all explosives are equal, demolishing Didcot power station's cooling towers needed just 140kg of high explosive to do the job.
 

Geezertronic

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Unsurprising if that's the figures getting to the UK, it's expensive and dangerous to get to europe illegally, so a family will send the person who has a chance to earn money to bring the rest over.

I still can't believe that a man would intentionally leave his family in a potential danger zone where, apparently, all sorts of atrocities have driven them to seek refuge. Surely the sensible and common sense thing to do is to take the family and seek refuge in the nearest safe country. In my opinion, this wouldn't apply to any of the men traveling alone in Calais.

It also begs the question that if this was true and men travelling alone intend to bring their family over, it skews the immigrant/refugee figures so 20,000 (for example) could infact be a lot more.
 

Antman

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Waiting for the Daily Mail headline: "Syrian refugees cause most severe winter since records began" :lol:

Regards

Well I wouldn't hold your breath:roll:

I really do despair at the way perfectly reasonable topics for discussion are undermined with this sort of nonsense:roll:
 

Tetchytyke

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I still can't believe that a man would intentionally leave his family in a potential danger zone where, apparently, all sorts of atrocities have driven them to seek refuge. Surely the sensible and common sense thing to do is to take the family and seek refuge in the nearest safe country.

You're assuming that they haven't. One of the biggest refugee camps from Syria, in Jordan, has nearly 100,000 people living in it; at one point, before a second camp opened, it had 160,000 people in it, making it the 4th largest city in the country.

It's the same situation with people from South Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia, many of whom are the ones rocking up at Calais.

Also bear in mind, of course, that with many atrocities it is the able-bodied adult men who are the ones who are most at risk of death. Look at the Srebrenica massacre as an example; although the women undoubtedly suffered and were tortured and sexually abused, it was the men and teenage boys who were taken out into the fields, blindfolded and gunned down. Able-bodied adult men are usually the first ones to be killed in a genocide; getting them out first often makes the most sense. In Eritrea, a country with one of the worst human rights records in the world, it is the men who are the ones who are forced into the military through their policy of unlimited conscription. Of course it'll be the men who flee first.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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I still can't believe that a man would intentionally leave his family in a potential danger zone where, apparently, all sorts of atrocities have driven them to seek refuge. Surely the sensible and common sense thing to do is to take the family and seek refuge in the nearest safe country. In my opinion, this wouldn't apply to any of the men traveling alone in Calais.

The rest of the family may not be in direct danger. They may have escaped as far as a refugee camp for example. I imagine there are also places where adult males are in greater danger than the rest of the family (for example, from conscription). So I would think it is very plausible that some of the men arriving in Europe will have come to agreements with their families based on a belief that having the men go forward alone is the most likely way to bring eventual safety and a reasonable life to the entire family.

I think we should also remember that migrants are not always going to be well informed. It may be obvious to us that France is a perfectly safe country and refugees should therefore claim asylum there upon arrival, but are people from outside Europe who have spent the last year either escaping bombs or living in refugee camps with little contact with legitimate authorities necessarily going to know that? Maybe not.

It also begs the question that if this was true and men travelling alone intend to bring their family over, it skews the immigrant/refugee figures so 20,000 (for example) could infact be a lot more.

That is very true, and not only for refugees, but for almost anyone applying for a visa. I don't think that should impact the judgement of whether someone is a genuine refugee though (although it could impact calculations of how many refugees it's reasonable for any one particular country to take in).
 

miami

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I still can't believe that a man would intentionally leave his family in a potential danger zone where, apparently, all sorts of atrocities have driven them to seek refuge. Surely the sensible and common sense thing to do is to take the family and seek refuge in the nearest safe country. In my opinion, this wouldn't apply to any of the men traveling alone in Calais.

It also begs the question that if this was true and men travelling alone intend to bring their family over, it skews the immigrant/refugee figures so 20,000 (for example) could infact be a lot more.

Could well be. Expect more of this over the next 50 years as the world continues to degenerate.

A refugee camp is not Butlins. It might be a great place to avoid being shot for a few days, but so are most (non-US) prisions. Doesn't mean you want to bring up your family there.

http://theweek.com/captured/449648/behind-scenes-ms-senior-arizona-pageant
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/20/amnesty-report-desperate-plight-syrian-refugees-turkey

These people are paying €4000 to get from Athens to France in a lorry, which might be their life savings. They aren't going to be able to spend €16000 to bring the wife and kids with them.

Where do you think the 4 million people in refugee camps are going to go? Just stay there for 50 years? That's what happened with the Palestinians, and if you've been to Gaza city, let alone the refugee camps, you'll see why that's not a good thing. They want a better life, and the only way they can see of doing that is by going to Europe and working menial jobs for £2 an hour with cash under the table. As most of the money will be going off to their families back in Turkey they aren't contributing to the UK economy. As they don't care they're living 3 to a bed in a cupboard in London (it's better than sleeping on the street) even more money can go back to the family. Maybe one day, if they're lucky, they'll see their children again.

The fundamental problem is global inequality - people will move to where there's more opportunity.

What's the solution? More dogs? Please don't make me laugh. The plight of the poor, homeless, effectively stateless in the middle east and elsewhere is a global tragedy with no easy answer.
 

Temple Meads

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Well I wouldn't hold your breath:roll:

I really do despair at the way perfectly reasonable topics for discussion are undermined with this sort of nonsense:roll:

You're 'Daily Mail Reporter' and I claim my £5 ;)

Sorry to add to the 'nonsense'.
 

thenorthern

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With the terminal at Calais its important to remember that France has signed up the all the EU and Council of Europe conventions, agreements and charters that the United Kingdom has as well as a few more so the police and security officials are limited in what they can do.

Some of the things most people would suggest doing are Police pointing their pistols at intruders like in the US is banned. Using tasers would annoy a lot of people claiming its inhuman. Firing warning shots is banned. There was talk of an electric fence which was described as inhuman and thus probably won't happen. Water Cannons would drive people away but they could affect electric equipment and the Home Secretary has said no to them. You could arrest them all however it would do little to deter would be intruders as French Prisons are much nicer than war torn Syria. We can't deport irregular migrants back to France as they aren't French and they don't have a legal right to be there.

If the Channel Tunnel Terminal was anywhere else though I think security would be much tighter than it is now. If the West Coast Mainline fencing was being breached this many times I doubt we would be just debating how to improve security without affecting human right.

I think some people are misguided about the whole crisis such as a friend of mine who is an organiser at London Pride said we should take more in and said I didn't want to sound offensive but was he aware of what most Syrians thought of his sexuality and I got labeled a large number of things because he saw Syrians at London Pride and I thought I wonder why not Pride Damascus.
 

Tetchytyke

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I thought I wonder why not Pride Damascus.

Because it's a warzone?

*bashes head against desk repeatedly*

I'm also not quite sure what your point is. 144 MPs voted against gay marriage. The UK isn't quite the beacon of tolerance it likes to pretend it is.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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I think some people are misguided about the whole crisis such as a friend of mine who is an organiser at London Pride said we should take more in and said I didn't want to sound offensive but was he aware of what most Syrians thought of his sexuality and I got labeled a large number of things because he saw Syrians at London Pride and I thought I wonder why not Pride Damascus.

Doubtless many people from Syria do hold views about homosexuality that most of us would regard as intolerant. But in my books a refugee is a refugee - our willingness to provide humanitarian assistance to someone who needs it shouldn't be dependant on their holding particular political opinions that we happen to like.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Would sort of damage could a mine do? If the train runs over it and the mine is activated by use of a contact wire, would that cause a great amount of damage to rolling stock and tunnel?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Would sort of damage could a mine do? If the train runs over it and the mine is activated by use of a contact wire, would that cause a great amount of damage to rolling stock and tunnel?

Of course, that would put an end to the aspirations of those who choose to enter Britain by walking through the tunnel for quite a period of time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
what is your point?

Not such as long a distance as getting to the British mainland.
 

Dent

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I think some people are misguided about the whole crisis such as a friend of mine who is an organiser at London Pride said we should take more in and said I didn't want to sound offensive but was he aware of what most Syrians thought of his sexuality and I got labeled a large number of things because he saw Syrians at London Pride and I thought I wonder why not Pride Damascus.

What you were doing by indiscriminately labeling everyone from Syria as homophobic is inciting racial hatred against a group of vulnerable refugees.

I think it's a bit rich to call anyone else "misguided" when you were the one engaging in such scaremongering against vulnerable people.
 

meridian2

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The issue here isn't as profound as laying it on the doorstep of ';free migration'. The issue is one of lax security and the bods at Calais need to up their game to prevent these people breaking the law.
 

MarkyT

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It's worth remembering this summer's Calais crisis really only got going during the ferry blockades by sacked French seamen. They set up blazing road barricades and actually cut the compound fences on a number of occasions, encouraging the incursions. They saw themselves acting directly against the interests of their former employers, Eurotunnel, who were forced to sell their My Ferry Link operations to DFDS by the UK Competition and Markets Authority who objected to Eurotunnel's total market share. DFDS then put a number of the seamen out of work. The seamen, previously of Sea France, were the last vestige of the former SNCF owned part of Sealink who had been operating the vessels on behalf of Eurotunnel as a cooperative.

One of the big problems with a compound of such a vast size (as big as a town) is that once inside it is fairly easy to disappear and hide. Thus, a breach in the fence can be discovered and fixed fairly quickly, but by the time a response gets to the site, if the party entering is small they may have disappeared without a trace. They only reappear later to make a run for the trains or the tunnels. Larger incursions get a bigger and faster response, but whilst the majority might be rounded up and removed there's no guarantee some haven't managed to slip away and hide.

The problem with Calais is not the tunnel or the EU, it is geography. Whether we remain a member or not, a very large proportion of our trade and land travel will always remain concentrated on this one short crossing route by ferry or by the tunnel. There are no other places in Europe where so much legitimate cross-border movement is concentrated into such a narrow corridor, operating 24 hours a day. Most migrants already in Europe wanting specifically to get into the UK have no real option but to congregate around Calais, unlike in Europe where unfenced land borders often stretch for hundreds of km and there is no effective border control between states anyway so there's rarely any kind of build up at any particular site. If someone landing in Italy wants to get to Paris specifically they'll just go there by whatever means and apply for asylum or whatever when they get there. Clearly it's impossible to do that in UK unless at first they get through the security at the ferry ports or tunnel entrance and then risk their life trying to clamber aboard lorries or trains or as in this case actually walking through the tunnel.

According to the infographic animation in the Sky news report an alarm was raised early somewhere around the French crossover cavern (about a third of the way in), but the man was only picked up much later near the UK end. Eurostar traffic performance, as shown by RTT on the day shows no significant delays so presumably only limited cautions or closures were applied, or none at all. Perhaps a widespread search would have required a more disruptive closure when they knew he was bound eventually to pop out at the UK end.
 
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miami

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Would sort of damage could a mine do? If the train runs over it and the mine is activated by use of a contact wire, would that cause a great amount of damage to rolling stock and tunnel?

If you're talking anti-tank mines, would probably cause a partial derailment. It would cause more damage if you were to set a lorry on fire.

I suppose a mine to stop the train, then some molotov cocktails into the carrages could cause something worse than the 2008, perhaps even as bad as the 1996 one.

You'd cause far more disruption shooting travellers queueing for security theatre at Brussels Midi. If you're lucky you might get a few MEPs too, so you'd have a sympathetic jury ;)

Remember the chunnel is far larger than a picadilly line tunnel (so far less damage), and a bomb going off there closed it for 4 weeks.
 

thenorthern

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Doubtless many people from Syria do hold views about homosexuality that most of us would regard as intolerant. But in my books a refugee is a refugee - our willingness to provide humanitarian assistance to someone who needs it shouldn't be dependant on their holding particular political opinions that we happen to like.

What you were doing by indiscriminately labeling everyone from Syria as homophobic is inciting racial hatred against a group of vulnerable refugees.

I think it's a bit rich to call anyone else "misguided" when you were the one engaging in such scaremongering against vulnerable people.

I should have said he wanted to take in several refugees to stay at his house. I am aware that not all Syrian's are homophobic and I apoligise for any offence caused for generalising.

Anyway we are going off topic back to Calais someone asked asked if there is a border in the tunnel as far as I know yes there is a yellow marker line within the tunnel that corresponds with the maritime boundary.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think some people are misguided about the whole crisis such as a friend of mine who is an organiser at London Pride said we should take more in and said I didn't want to sound offensive but was he aware of what most Syrians thought of his sexuality and I got labeled a large number of things because he saw Syrians at London Pride and I thought I wonder why not Pride Damascus.

I think it best not to view that matter from an actual Syrian point of view view but rather that of a belief of those from that area who hold to a strict interpretation of Islamic faith.
 
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