Midland mainline

[The Planner]

What about the track improvements currently taking place, and the next step to increase linespeeds to 125 in places and ease out some of the sharper curves? Thats pretty significant even if it doesn't go far enough!

The curves and 125mph is still a way off. The only track improvements you've got are the 3rd track Harrowden to Kettering and some re-modelling of Trent and Toton as part of the re-signalling.

 

[Kneedown]

The curves and 125mph is still a way off. The only track improvements you've got are the 3rd track Harrowden to Kettering and some re-modelling of Trent and Toton as part of the re-signalling.

Like i said then, the next step, and well capable of having electrification integrated.

 

[coral reef]

Kneedown I don't think you are understanding me. I have at no point said I don't think the MML should be electrified, but thats the way you're painting it, unfairly I may add.

5 or 6 long distance diesel departures an hour is a pretty significant amount.

GWML = 10 per hour on the current timetable (4 of which long distance and another 2 HSTs to Oxford) will be electrified on the current plan. A further 4 per hour can be electrified eventually.

Its not an either/or situation. If the MML is to be electrified it will not depend on electrification schemes to Wales and the West Country. NR has proved to the Government that electrification pays for itself over a relatively short period compared to grand-projets such as HS2, and they just need approval to spend the capital, and confirmation from the Government that they aren't about to throw loads of money up the wall on new diesel trains.

The argument for electrification is so compelling that the MML will be electrified, I feel people are so used to it being put off by politicians that they won't believe it until they see it which is understandable, but thats not the way I see it. All I was trying to say is that I would have chosen to get stuck into the GWML first.

I would turn most of the GWML to electric IEPs, and get some Bi-modes for a few bits including the west country routes. XC only has a few to-be life-expired HSTs which aren't worth jumping on XC electrification for. So instead turn my attention to MML, electrify that, but get it done quite quickly after the GWML so that the 222s can be transferred to XC before the HSTs fall apart, as I don't see the point of purchasing millions of bi-modes, as a few will need to be purchased for the ECML anyway.

By this time I would have done trans-penine from Manchester to Leeds and York via Huddersfield. I would then extend the GWML electrification to the West Country, at least to Plymouth. Fill in the northern end of the MML, and then finish the XC between Bristol and Derby. Then get electric IEPs for XC, and then definitely transfer the by then surplus-to-requirements GWML bi-modes to XC for operations beyond Plymouth and north of the Scottish central belt. XC could then have a mostly electric fleet.

I actually think the MML should ultimately get Pendos released from the WCML by HS2, if they aren't expired themselves by then!

 

[Waverley125]

the politicians are doing their usual, trying to get as much political kudos for as little money. Personally i think we're severley underwired in this country, to a very damaging point, and that we have several thousand miles of wires that should be going up, eliminating DMUs on all intercity mainlines, but i doubt this will happen.

 

[The Planner]

I actually think the MML should ultimately get Pendos released from the WCML by HS2, if they aren't expired themselves by then!

Why would Pendos be released from the WCML ??? they would stay on there. I dont think they are set up for more than 140mph without some serious work on them anyway.

 

[37401]

I was only saying,now calm down :roll:

Anyway I heard that the MML might be electrified but,theres a slim chance of It.

I am calm I was just saying that my post was aimed at the OP not you

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I am calm I was just saying that my post was aimed at the OP not you

Sorry mate!
Regards

 

[Kneedown]

Kneedown I don't think you are understanding me. I have at no point said I don't think the MML should be electrified, but thats the way you're painting it, unfairly I may add.



GWML = 10 per hour on the current timetable (4 of which long distance and another 2 HSTs to Oxford) will be electrified on the current plan. A further 4 per hour can be electrified eventually.

Its not an either/or situation. If the MML is to be electrified it will not depend on electrification schemes to Wales and the West Country. NR has proved to the Government that electrification pays for itself over a relatively short period compared to grand-projets such as HS2, and they just need approval to spend the capital, and confirmation from the Government that they aren't about to throw loads of money up the wall on new diesel trains.

The argument for electrification is so compelling that the MML will be electrified, I feel people are so used to it being put off by politicians that they won't believe it until they see it which is understandable, but thats not the way I see it. All I was trying to say is that I would have chosen to get stuck into the GWML first.

I would turn most of the GWML to electric IEPs, and get some Bi-modes for a few bits including the west country routes. XC only has a few to-be life-expired HSTs which aren't worth jumping on XC electrification for. So instead turn my attention to MML, electrify that, but get it done quite quickly after the GWML so that the 222s can be transferred to XC before the HSTs fall apart, as I don't see the point of purchasing millions of bi-modes, as a few will need to be purchased for the ECML anyway.

By this time I would have done trans-penine from Manchester to Leeds and York via Huddersfield. I would then extend the GWML electrification to the West Country, at least to Plymouth. Fill in the northern end of the MML, and then finish the XC between Bristol and Derby. Then get electric IEPs for XC, and then definitely transfer the by then surplus-to-requirements GWML bi-modes to XC for operations beyond Plymouth and north of the Scottish central belt. XC could then have a mostly electric fleet.

I actually think the MML should ultimately get Pendos released from the WCML by HS2, if they aren't expired themselves by then!

I've not at any point implied that you're suggesting the MML shouldn't be wired. If thats the impression you got i apologise.
My point is, that the MML should have been first due to the fact that the nature of the route, in comparison to the nature of the GWML, will bring far greater benefits the reasons for which i've already outlined. Also the MML has never had any major investment, and it's high time it did.

I'm not suggesting that the GWML shouldnt be wired up either, i believe the entire network should be electrified in one form or another. But by announcing the electrification of the GW and Chat Moss, and not announcing the MML, i, and i'm sure many others here, think that we will once again be forgotten.
EMT comes in for a lot of stick, much of it entirely warranted, but much of it isn't when we've got crappy trains running on crappy infrastructure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would Pendos be released from the WCML ??? they would stay on there. I dont think they are set up for more than 140mph without some serious work on them anyway.

If, IF, the wires go up on the MML, prepare for 91's and Mk4's displaced by IEP.

 

[yorksrob]

Hmm, I'm reading a lot of comments about life expired HST's, but considering that most of them have new engines and interiors, and already have Mk 3 bodywork, I can think of other less sexy trains on the network that are more life expired and deserving of replacement. That said, with regard to electrification, I find it hard to believe that the Chatt Moss Manchester - Liverpool line is ahead of the trans pennine route through Warrington - although the bit through Newton le Willows appears to have been done already.

 

[tbtc]

with regard to electrification, I find it hard to believe that the Chatt Moss Manchester - Liverpool line is ahead of the trans pennine route through Warrington - although the bit through Newton le Willows appears to have been done already.

IMO it does make more sense to do the Chatt Moss line, as the scope for Manchester/ Liverpool - Birmingham/ London is a handy diversion to be electrified, plus electrifying the Warrington line wouldn't benefit the Liverpool - Manchester - Scarborough/ Norwich service (as they'd still need to be DMU run).

I'm not against doing the Warrington route too (it'd mean the half hourly "stoppers" could become longer EMUs, which may even give capacity to speed up the Nowich/ Scarborough serices by omitting stops like Widnes), but if you only do one then I think Chatt Moss is the better

 

[yorksrob]

Good point - I still think the Warrington line would would be the best bet as part of a trans-pennine electrification scheme, although diversionary routes to the WCML would be useful for Chat Moss. Perhaps they should electrify further East through Victoria?

 

[tbtc]

Good point - I still think the Warrington line would would be the best bet as part of a trans-pennine electrification scheme, although diversionary routes to the WCML would be useful for Chat Moss. Perhaps they should electrify further East through Victoria?

The trouble with Transpennine is the number of "branches" at the eastern end. The Newcastle line is wired up, but even if you wired the Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds - York stretch, you'd still need to do the lines to Hull/ Scarborough/ Middlesbrough (as well as southern transpennine).

Hopefully it'll become a virtuous circle, whereby doing the Leeds - Hull line means the Doncaster - Hull line has a good business case, doing the Thirsk - Middlesbrough line means the Darlington - Middlesbrough line has a better business case etc etc.

Sadly, it'll probably be decades until all of the "gaps" on the Liverpool - Norwich line are filled in - it may be one of the last DMU services in the country!

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely true, especially considering that the current debate seems to be around electrifying the loop to York with perhaps a branch to Selby for local trains. Yet from this base it's possible to envisage Selby to Hull and york to Scarborough - Apart from the Middlesborough branch thats most of the east trans-pennine already under wires.

 

[coral reef]

I've not at any point implied that you're suggesting the MML shouldn't be wired. If thats the impression you got i apologise.
My point is, that the MML should have been first due to the fact that the nature of the route, in comparison to the nature of the GWML, will bring far greater benefits the reasons for which i've already outlined. Also the MML has never had any major investment, and it's high time it did.

Thanks I understand. I agree with what you say, it seems to be a matter of judgement as to which route should go first, as they are both good candidates. I'll eat my hat though if electrification on the MML isn't announced by the end of the year

Why would Pendos be released from the WCML ??? they would stay on there. I dont think they are set up for more than 140mph without some serious work on them anyway.

I have thought about a long term strategy that could be used and this is part of it. The pendos wouldn't be used on HS2. Once HS2 is in place a lot of the long distance services will need new trains for higher speeds, making many pendos redundent - Some will still be needed on the WCML for shorter journeys not served by HS2. Perhaps one per hour to Manchester, 2 per hour to Birmingham, and a trent valley towns service, with all calling more at lesser stations like Watford. And a few more perhaps for Birmingham - Manchester / Liverpool. The gaps left by this cut in pendos is filled by higher speed services with new trains on HS2.

Basically I think only half the fleet will be needed once HS2 is in place, and that leaves a sizable fleet of about 15 pendos to use to turn MML to EPS. Again only for 'shorter' journeys, as my long term vision hopes HS2 will serve Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield as well.

 

[Kneedown]

Thanks I understand. I agree with what you say, it seems to be a matter of judgement as to which route should go first, as they are both good candidates. I'll eat my hat though if electrification on the MML isn't announced by the end of the year

Would you care for a little salt on that hat Sir?

 

[Waverley125]

IIRC with regard to the Transpennine mainline, wires will be extended to Hull & Middlesbrough. The existing Scarborough TPE services will terminate at York, and the York-Blackpool north Northern service will extend to Scarborough.

Personally I'd like to see the Warrington & Scarborough lines electrified, and a fast TPE Liverpool-Newcastle service commenced (Warrington Central, Oxford Road, Picadilly, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street)

 

[tbtc]

Personally I'd like to see the Warrington & Scarborough lines electrified, and a fast TPE Liverpool-Newcastle service commenced (Warrington Central, Oxford Road, Picadilly, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street)

Not stopping at Huddersfield, but stopping at Chester-le-Street sounds odd

 

[MCR247]

Probably becuase it dosent really get any other regular services like Huddersfield

 

[507 001]

I'm sorry but I'm all for the electrification of the Liverpool-Manchester because I live near to Huyton station and use it regularily and it is my opinion (and many other peoples) that our current DMU run service is completely inadequate. We have to put up with battered old 142's and 150's that chug along, most of the time packed to the rafters with people, often delayed and often unbearable temperatures.
Honestly everybody who complains about 22x's and the lates HST refurb needs to get a life and try travelling on some of northerns fleet on a long journey!

 

[MCR247]

Honestly everybody who complains about 22x's and the lates HST refurb needs to get a life and try travelling on some of northerns fleet on a long journey!

Well we have to put up with that for 5 hours on Liverpool - Norwich, although with 158s! So nevermind about us getting a life! :roll: By electrifying the MML could free up 222s for Liverpool to Norwich

 

[The Planner]

222s will run Liverpool Norwich even without wires, I'll put cash on that.

 

[WillPS]

222s will run Liverpool Norwich even without wires, I'll put cash on that.

Well they did... sort of a bit, once :P

I'd love to see them take over outright, but even with the new Pioneer arrivals, I think that it probably isn't quite possible.

I think the answer would be using Sprinters for Corby - Kettering shuttles, with a couple of trains in each direction direct to London. The current service is wayyy more than Corby needs right now.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sorry but I'm all for the electrification of the Liverpool-Manchester because I live near to Huyton station and use it regularily and it is my opinion (and many other peoples) that our current DMU run service is completely inadequate. We have to put up with battered old 142's and 150's that chug along, most of the time packed to the rafters with people, often delayed and often unbearable temperatures.
Honestly everybody who complains about 22x's and the lates HST refurb needs to get a life and try travelling on some of northerns fleet on a long journey!

Yeah, I can empathise with that.

 

[Kneedown]

Well we have to put up with that for 5 hours on Liverpool - Norwich, although with 158s!

Without any form of catering nowadays as well! A 5hr journey and you cant even get a cuppa!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd love to see them take over outright, but even with the new Pioneer arrivals, I think that it probably isn't quite possible.

I think the answer would be using Sprinters for Corby - Kettering shuttles, with a couple of trains in each direction direct to London. The current service is wayyy more than Corby needs right now.

A single 153 shuttling between Corby and Kettering would be more than adequate.
I have heard it mentioned that 158's are going on the Corby's due to the lack of patronage on the route, but as regards that, and the released 222's cascaded to the Liv-Nor's, well i'll believe it when i see it, or at least when i'm on a traction course!

 

[asylumxl]

I have heard it mentioned that 158's are going on the Corby's due to the lack of patronage on the route, but as regards that, and the released 222's cascaded to the Liv-Nor's, well i'll believe it when i see it, or at least when i'm on a traction course!

I believe this might actually happen. I've seen a few non passenger service 158s about the area.

 

[The Planner]

The 158s are on training runs for when EMT drivers go on strikes. Their driver managers sign 158s and the line to Bedford, so would be used as back up.

 

[asylumxl]

The 158s are on training runs for when EMT drivers go on strikes. Their driver managers sign 158s and the line to Bedford, so would be used as back up.

It still opens up the possibility of a shuttle, with drivers being signed to Bedford on 158s.

 

[A0]

Well they did... sort of a bit, once :P

I'd love to see them take over outright, but even with the new Pioneer arrivals, I think that it probably isn't quite possible.

I think the answer would be using Sprinters for Corby - Kettering shuttles, with a couple of trains in each direction direct to London. The current service is wayyy more than Corby needs right now.

But the Corby service replaced one of the northbound stoppers (to Sheffield IIRC) so there would probably be calls to reinstate that, which would tie up the rolling stock freed up from the Corby service.

I suspect the longer term plan is for the Corby services to run through to Leicester via Melton Mowbray, but the line would probably need some upgrading to improve journey times.

 

[Kneedown]

It still opens up the possibility of a shuttle, with drivers being signed to Bedford on 158s.

I dont think the Driver Managers would take too kindly to being dragged out of their cosy office every day to work a Corby shuttle, but having said that Derby Instructors sign 158's.
If it's going to happen long term it'll be a case of either Nott's drivers learning Manton - Corby, or Derby mainline Drivers learning 158's. Whichever works out cheaper.

 

[tbtc]

But the Corby service replaced one of the northbound stoppers (to Sheffield IIRC)

There used to be two an hour from Leicester into London. Then, under National Express, this was doubled to four an hour (two fast and two slow).

The Corby service was a fifth hourly train (albiet not running as far as Leicester), meaning the "slow" Nottingham service could be sped up a bit. If it was replaced by a Corby shuttle (a big "if") then you'd either need to slow a Nottingham service down to stop at those stations, or run an additional service from St Pancras in that path - which there's no stock to do currently.