Mid Cheshire line - a new station?

[northwichcat]

Why 4-track Northwich to Knutsford?

I agree there would be little advantage to doing that and it would require compulsory land order purchases to do. And why to Knutsford not to Altrincham?

Doubling up the single line sections would have a lot more advantage.
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Electrification of the three miles from Northwich to Hartford curve (near Weaverham and Acton Bridge). Together with reinstatement of the trailing crossover immediately North of Acton Bridge Station.

Small cost, huge new service opportunities. Not even on the radar.

Could gantries be put on the Leftwich viaduct without further work to the viaduct? I'd be doubtful of that.

Which platform would you use at Northwich for terminating services? At the moment the unused platform 3 would be the only suitable one without redoing the signalling. Then of you bring a new platform in to use it must meet the latest accessibility standards - currently it's too low down and doesn't have lift access to the footbridge and the footbridge isn't wide enough, so you'd finish up with requiring a new footbridge, as at Altrincham station. Now I think the lift access and new footbridge should be done but it would be a significant cost in itself.

I think your 'small cost, huge new service opportunities' would be seen by Network Rail as something like £30m of costs, only really benefiting one small town, do not take plans any further at this stage. Note Network Rail aren't currently supportive of a new station at Middlewich and a Crewe-Northwich shuttle which is supposed to have a benefit:cost ratio of 5:1.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree there would be little advantage to doing that and it would require compulsory land order purchases to do. And why to Knutsford not to Altrincham?

What would be the amount of property demolition and infrastructural works that would be required on the section from the Ashley Heath area where the line passes Bankhall Lane on the southern Hale border with Ashley Heath onwards into Hale and then from there to Altrincham on any proposed four-tracking on that line section. You are talking of some very high priced properties involved there and there most certainly would be some very strong opposition to this line widening with many named personages only too willing to put their name to such opposition and a number of highly-paid legal executives who live in the affected area would add their undoubted legal expertise to such a campaign.

Why is there felt to be such a need for a four track railway line from Knutsford through to Altrincham. Have you seen the existing part single/part double track layout that is in between Altrincham and Stockport that would take continuation of such rail traffic ? Surely the amount of freight traffic that uses the line section between Knutsford and Altrincham is not envisaged to increase in any great quantity in the foreseeable future where the extra lines may be needed ? Has the plans for any tram-train operation from Knutsford to Altrincham ever shown any four-tracking of the line section between these two settlements?

 

[Bill Stanier]

No need for any 4-tracking anywhere on the Mid Cheshire, even if an Airport northern link is built. Re-doubling the singled sections at the Stockport and Chester ends would be useful, though.

 

[apk55]

I could well see a usefull service being developed through Hartford if the Manchester Airport Western link is built. The service would run from Manchester Airport (actualy being an extension of an existing airport service) through Knutsford, Northwich, then the west coast line to Runcorn (where it would take the place of a local service) to Liverpool. As well as offering a Manchester Airport- Liverpool service this would also offer a faster service from Northwich etc to Manchester and also to the airport. (I could also see the main Manchester -Chester and North Wales service being diverted via the airport)

I do not know what the proposed route of Manchester airport Western link (anybody got any plans?) but at an educated guess shows it could run next to proposed HS2 route for most of way. The line from proposed airport link to Hartford junction is double track and would just need resignaling and posibly a couple of freight waiting loops to cope with this service

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I could well see a usefull service being developed through Hartford if the Manchester Airport Western link is built. The service would run from Manchester Airport (actualy being an extension of an existing airport service) through Knutsford, Northwich, then the west coast line to Runcorn (where it would take the place of a local service) to Liverpool.

How long a journey time do you envisage for this proposed service from Manchester Airport-Knutsford-Northwich-Runcorn-Liverpool, noting you state the Runcorn to Liverpool section would take the place of a local service ?

 

[northwichcat]

One problem with proposals is they have been looked at in isolation.

For instance, TfGM have looked at the option of AC overheads from Timperley to Knutsford and using only dual-voltage tram-trains on all services to Altrincham with 3 per hour continuing to Knutsford and 6 per hour continuing to Hale. This was seen to have a very poor business case, even though it would solve the Metrolink single track bottleneck and improve public transport links between Cheshire and Greater Manchester. However, if the Airport spur is extended to the Mid-Cheshire line then AC electrification of the line would have a much stronger business case, given a large number of services to/from the Airport will be electric by 2018.

 

[frodshamfella]

You have to add in nearby Weaverham, that brings the total up to 12,000.
A new station would be in walking distance of both Hartford and Weaverham, the existing one is not.
The benefits of an interchange with the mid-Cheshire line will create a little traffic; as we discussed a one mile walk is presently needed to interchange.
The space for expansion.
But mostly being on a four track section instead of two will create new paths on the WCML. Extra paths on the WCML must have some value.

Of course the few people in Acton Bridge who use Acton Bridge station won't like the fact that a new Hartford station would take away much of the little traffic they have left (mostly from Weaverham).

Perhaps bring back the pre-war dodger train. Warrington-Acton Bridge-Hartford-Greenbank-Northwich-Middlewich-Sandbach-Crewe. (The Dodger can't go to Wharton ever again, it doesn't exist anymore)

I use Acton Bridge, its my most local station, and if im going to Liverpool ( or Liverpool Airport) or southwards to Midlands, that's the station I use, its a rural station so not the most busy, but its is also severely handicapped as the car parking was reduced greatly a number of years ago. I have on occasion have had to struggle to park, and this would put some travellers off, thinking they may not get a space and miss their train. I have taken it up with London Midland and Network Rail, but got no where. There does by the way appear to be scope to extend car parking. I know Acton Bridge Parish Council have tried as well to get more parking restored.

 

[theshillito]

One problem with proposals is they have been looked at in isolation.

For instance, TfGM have looked at the option of AC overheads from Timperley to Knutsford and using only dual-voltage tram-trains on all services to Altrincham with 3 per hour continuing to Knutsford and 6 per hour continuing to Hale. This was seen to have a very poor business case, even though it would solve the Metrolink single track bottleneck and improve public transport links between Cheshire and Greater Manchester. However, if the Airport spur is extended to the Mid-Cheshire line then AC electrification of the line would have a much stronger business case, given a large number of services to/from the Airport will be electric by 2018.

If the tram-trains went ahead and continued to Knutsford, where would that leave Northern? Would they be running services on the same tracks as Metrolink, or would Knutsford become a terminus for a service from Chester? Then nothing would go to Stockport on that line and the Northern service would be isolated from the rest of their network (meaning the Chester to Knutsford line would probably have to become a branch line operated by Arriva Trains Wales from Chester). It's a very weird one that I think is more than just a bad business case. In my eyes, if they ever electrified any of the line, they'd have to do the whole thing through to Chester. Maybe they can extend the Merseyrail service to Altrincham from Chester?

If I'm missing something here that would make it feasible, let me know.

 

[6Gman]

It is unfortunate that the locations of Hartford, Acton Bridge and Greenbank statios mean that there is no meaningful interchange between the Crewe - Liverpool and Chester - Altrincham services.

Would there be demand for a dedicated bus link (where rail tickets are valid) between Hartford and Greenbank ?

No.

I fear the number of people travelling Crewe-Knutsford or Northwich-Runcorn or whatever are far too small to justify such work.

 

[northwichcat]

If the tram-trains went ahead and continued to Knutsford, where would that leave Northern? Would they be running services on the same tracks as Metrolink, or would Knutsford become a terminus for a service from Chester? Then nothing would go to Stockport on that line and the Northern service would be isolated from the rest of their network (meaning the Chester to Knutsford line would probably have to become a branch line operated by Arriva Trains Wales from Chester). It's a very weird one that I think is more than just a bad business case. In my eyes, if they ever electrified any of the line, they'd have to do the whole thing through to Chester. Maybe they can extend the Merseyrail service to Altrincham from Chester?

If I'm missing something here that would make it feasible, let me know.

The whole point of a tram-train is the line doesn't have to be converted from National Rail to light rail. A tram-train can run on exactly the same line as a Pacer, a Pendolino or a freight train, while a standard Metrolink or Supertram vehicle is not able to do so as it doesn't meet the National Rail crash standards.

One issue with the business case is apparently down to the power method used. There are multiple options:
1. Install AC overheads on National Rail and use dual voltage tram-trains.
2. Install DC overheads on National Rail.
3. Install DC third rail on National Rail and use tram-trains able to run on overheads or third rail.
4. Use tram-trains which can run on diesel and electric.
5. Use diesel only tram-trains.

TfGM have dismissed options 2, 4 and 5. Option 1 is the most expensive option and TfGM's preferred option, hence the very high costs proposed. Option 2 may only be a short-term solution if National Rail want to electrify the route at a later date with AC overheads. Option 3 would mean DC tram-trains and AC trains could run on the same line but Network Rail aren't keen on. It's not clear why TfGM have dismissed option 4 which is the second cheapest option, obviously with option 5 they'd have diesel tram-trains in the city centre which would be something they'd want to avoid.

TfGM have also done a slightly weird analysis of the business case.

Apparently an extension to Knutsford wouldn't benefit any Manchester businesses more than an extension to Hale, which is an unusual conclusion to make. They also wrongly imply there would are no deprived communities served by the line between Hale and Knutsford - what about Longridge which is an overflow Wythenshawe estate?
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No.

I fear the number of people travelling Crewe-Knutsford or Northwich-Runcorn or whatever are far too small to justify such work.

Well a lot of people go in to Knutsford ticket office and ask for a ticket to somewhere like London or Birmingham from Crewe/Wilmslow/Hartford. Although, as these people probably have cars changing from train to bus link to train would probably not entice them to start their journey at a Mid-Cheshire line station instead.

If you introduce a new link from Altrincham to Liverpool, I imagine it would take a while for passenger numbers to pick up. Anyone who commutes to Liverpool already has an alternative way of getting there while people who are looking for a new job wouldn't all get jobs in Liverpool or all get new jobs overnight.

 

[theshillito]

No.

I fear the number of people travelling Crewe-Knutsford or Northwich-Runcorn or whatever are far too small to justify such work.

Hello from someone who drives from Crewe to Knutsford every day for work and has friends in Middlewich and Northwich. We do exist!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hello from someone who drives from Crewe to Knutsford every day for work and has friends in Middlewich and Northwich. We do exist!

Unfortunately the railway station in Middlewich no longer does exist unfortunately....so that's one up to you.

Perhaps the Sandbach area rail supporters of long closed stations could campaign for the reopening of Cledford Bridge Halt on the Middlewich line and the ever longer closed stations at Wheelock, Hassall Green and Lawton on the old line that ran to Stoke-on-Trent.

 

[theshillito]

Unfortunately the railway station in Middlewich no longer does exist unfortunately....so that's one up to you.

I go to the meetings for re-opening Middlewich station, but just getting a regular service on the line would be fine for me.

 

[northwichcat]

but just getting a regular service on the line would be fine for me.

Indeed. An Altrincham-Northwich-Crewe service would be useful even without a new station at Middlewich but more stations strengthens the business case of providing a new service.

 

[ckhope]

In the mid 90's I was on a train home from Birmingham to Wigan and I stopped at a place I'd never heard of before called 'Hartford'; 25 minutes later I arrived in Wigan. Fast forward to 2007 I actually moved to Hartford! These days the journey time from Hartford to Wigan takes around 1.5 hours, despite the fact that fast trains shoot through Hartford to my destination. This is not progress.

This is my first post, hope I've kept with protocol.

 

[HowardGWR]

In the mid 90's I was on a train home from Birmingham to Wigan and I stopped at a place I'd never heard of before called 'Hartford'; 25 minutes later I arrived in Wigan. Fast forward to 2007 I actually moved to Hartford! These days the journey time from Hartford to Wigan takes around 1.5 hours, despite the fact that fast trains shoot through Hartford to my destination. This is not progress.

This is my first post, hope I've kept with protocol.

Welcome. I suspect that Hartford only having two lines through it is a problem when considering slow / semi-fast / express service mix.

I also expect a swift contrary riposte from our colleague @The Planner who thinks we can do it all .

 

[Hardcastle]

Firstly thanks for reacting this thread am sure towards the end of BR days there where a couple of trains a day from north of Warrington that stopped at Hartford can anyone confirm this !

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Welcome. I suspect that Hartford only having two lines through it is a problem when considering slow / semi-fast / express service mix.

I also expect a swift contrary riposte from our colleague @The Planner who thinks we can do it all .

I suspect m'learned friend Planner will say something like "You can have a Wigan - Hartford WCML service, provided you're OK with it running at 06:05 and 22:25 only, and not actually opening the doors".

The VHF timetable is a curse I tell you!

 

[6Gman]

I also have a (dim) recollection of some Hartford - Warrington links in BR days. Wouldn't the problem now be the mismatch between the rolling stock (Voyager pairs or Pendolinos) and the platform length?

We need an LM Birmingham - Preston perhaps?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I also have a (dim) recollection of some Hartford - Warrington links in BR days. Wouldn't the problem now be the mismatch between the rolling stock (Voyager pairs or Pendolinos) and the platform length?

We need an LM Birmingham - Preston perhaps?

Change some Northern services that go Preston-Manchester via Wigan NW to go to Crewe instead, which would solve this issue. However, yes, timetabling is an issue here.