MG11 from Southern

[ally30_1998]

Hello

I'm hoping that you might be able to clarify my situation, as Im fairly confused as to what happened recently. I list below:
Travelled from East Croydon intending to exit at Clapham Junction. I have an oyster pay as you go card. son has a freedom pass.
while on train i realised we would have to make a detour to epsom to collect forgotton items from my dad (we'd been there earlier and my sister had dropped us at east croydon on her way home).
luckily we were able to just cross platform at cj and get straight on a train to epsom.
i tried to pay our excess at epsom but was told that we had to pay a penalty fair. unfortunately i only had about six quid on me and said i would pay it by card over the phone.
i was very very stressed out by this at the time. my father had turned up at the station and offered to pay but i said no. my son also offered to pay but i said no. my dad is retired and my son gets DLA. i suppose pride came before common sense.
i have very patchy recall of exact events (my comms tend to disintigrate when i am under stress and i was trying not to cry as well- i dont cope with unexpected events very well much of the time).
anyway, suddenly the lady was reciting to me like they do on tv, i cant remember the exact wording but others have posted it here.
she didnt do anything about my son becuase he has a freedom pass.
she said i would be getting a letter.
it was only when i got home and spoke to my partner , rang southern cust servs and looked on this forum that i realised that this mg11 isnt penalty fair paperwork. i thought she was filling it out so i could pay later.
i have tried to pay it but i have had conflicting info from southern variously sayinv i have 28
days or saying i have to contact prosecutions.
on the whole they have been quite helpful but none of them seemed to be sure about what i should do next or what would happen.
it now seems this might go to court which im rather alarmed about as we wernt fare dodging. ive never done that.
my son is very upset about it (hes autistic so much analysis taking place). ill be honest and admit i am aspie although no medical diagnosis (only educational tests) so my reactions at the time of the even may have seemed a bit shouty. unfortunately when i fall apart thats how it comes across then i tend to cry (i did that when we got on the train back to
cj).
anyway. im really stressed about the whole 'wait and see' element. im in the middle of exams and thats all gone to pot. im not sleeping and just to add to the fun i put my back out on friday so am typing on a tiddly keyboard hence the lack of caps etc.
would be v greatful for any advice as to how i could proceed. i have an email addy for prosecutions but dont really know how to approach that.
thanks in advance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The other thing I am concerned about, is that apparently southern Cust Servs have a record of my initial phone call being a complaint about the lady at the barrier. my partner was told this when he spoke to them yesterday. ( I was struggling to juggle phone, pen and paper as flat on back at moment, so partner took over to take down an address).
It might be helpful if I clarify with more detail. When I initially rang southern customer services and after going in circles for an hour or so with various different numbers and bit of information I'd been give, I ended up (I think) back at their customer services dept (I should add that they were all as helpful as they could be but seemed to be hampered by a lack of training/information ).
The lady in the customer services department, having been given all the relevant details and unable to answer my question as to what would happen next, went to see advice from a collegue. She came back to tell me to wait for a letter and if I hadn't heard in 10 days, to call them again and they could chase it up.
Yesterday was day 10, and nothing received as yet, so I rang them again.
The chap I spoke to was very helpful but also advised that the previous information given was incorrect.
When my partner was taking down an address (it's for prosecutions dept I think), he asked the chap if it was possible to lodge a complaint about all the wrong information given to me by southern in how to to deal with this. This Is when he was advised that it already was a complaint.
I'm a bit concerned as I'm not sure what the complaint is!
All I really want to do is pay the penalty fair that I didn't have enough pay at the time, but it seems to have expanded out of all proportion and I'm not entirely sure why.
I am not the best verbal communicator on the planet when I'm frightened and stressed out and my mouth does tend to run on somewhat. My son tells me I didn't get shouty but that I was very verbal.
Do any of you think this could be why she didn't allow me to pay the excess or part of the penalty fair with the money I did have, and went through this caution thing?
I'm wondering if I need to see a solicitor now, because, from reading this and other forums, it seems I could end up with a criminal record simply because the post is very unreliable where I am.
It worries me that a combination of my lack of appropriate verbal skills and general communication issues could screw up my late attempt to establish enough of a career where I am self supporting again for the first time in 20 years.
Greatful if you managed to read this far and appreciate any input anyone's got.

 

[455driver]

First off I am no way an expert on tickets (miles off in fact) but there are a few things that are not clear.
I would write down everything you can remember about the encounter as a bit of a memory jogger for the future.

Travelled from East Croydon intending to exit at Clapham Junction. I have an oyster pay as you go card. son has a freedom pass.

while on train i realised we would have to make a detour to epsom to collect forgotton items from my dad (we'd been there earlier and my sister had dropped us at east croydon on her way home).
luckily we were able to just cross platform at cj and get straight on a train to epsom.

So you have an Oyster pay as you go and travelled from East Croydon to Clapham jn (didnt touch out and back in) and then travelled to Epsom where you met the RPI, is that correct.

my father had turned up at the station and offered to pay but i said no. my son also offered to pay but i said no. my dad is retired and my son gets DLA. i suppose pride came before common sense.

All I really want to do is pay the penalty fair that I didn't have enough pay at the time, but it seems to have expanded out of all proportion and I'm not entirely sure why.

Were you asked to pay a penalty fare at the time and although you state you couldnt afford but have stated that both your dad and Son offered to pay it so the penalty fare (if that is what was asked for) could have been paid there and then, the fact you refused to allow them to pay does make it look like you refused to pay.

Have Southern sent you a letter stating their next course of action they wish to take, if not I would just hold tight until such time as the letter arrives and then the experts will be able to deal with that rather than the thread be pulled here there and everywhere by the "well this might happen or that might happen brigade" which wont help you at all.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I live in Epsom, I can say for certain that Oyster is not valid at Epsom; zone 6 ends at Ewell West and Ewell East.

 

[ally30_1998]

455driver, Thank you for replying :

"I would write down everything you can remember about the encounter as a bit of a memory jogger for the future."

Yes, I did that on the evening it happened. I've since re- read it numerous times and am unable to fill in the gaps so i was probably auto pilot. I would assume they would have it all on CCTV though. I'm pretty sure I didn't do or say anything extraordinary. My son seems to think I was ok (although you could argue that's a case of the blind leading the blind..)

"Quote:
So you have an Oyster pay as you go and travelled from East Croydon to Clapham jn (didnt touch out and back in) and then travelled to Epsom where you met the RPI, is that correct."

Yes that is right. I don't think there is anywhere to touch on the platform at cj. I'm not sure as I've never had to do that there, only when I've gone through Wimbledon coming off the tram.

"Quote:
Were you asked to pay a penalty fare at the time and although you state you couldnt afford but have stated that both your dad and Son offered to pay it so the penalty fare (if that is what was asked for) could have been paid there and then, the fact you refused to allow them to pay does make it look like you refused to pay."

Yes she did want me to pay a penalty fair. I was very surprised I couldn't pay an excess as I've done that in the past there. The irony is I was really pleasantly surprised when I came down the stairs at how smart it looks there now, as the last time I went through Epsom it was all chipboard tunnels and I had to get an excess ticket in a little booth out on the pavement.
I like trains and stations.... I think that's maybe why I got so upset and was trying not to cry. It sounds daft but there you go.
I just couldn't understand why I was being penalised for an error and taking money from others like that is a huge issue for me as I spent many years parenting my son on benefits, which is enough of a pride basher in itself frankly. I just wouldn't take money from anyone in that situation.
So I clearly did the wrong thing then and that's why she proceeded that way. Blimey..what has happened to our rail system? ( that said I can understand they need to get fare dodgers and deliberate fare evasion is not on at all..I'm just puzzled as to why they lump everyone in the same boat and don't accept excess fares...why have an excess fare window then? They've only just finished doing it all up so it's not as if its a redundant bit of architecture..)

"Have Southern sent you a letter stating their next course of action they wish to take, if not I would just hold tight until such time as the letter arrives and then the experts will be able to deal with that rather than the thread be pulled here there and everywhere by the "well this might happen or that might happen brigade" which wont help you at all."

No they haven't yet. This is why I rang up yesterday. The thing that worries me is that there's a very good chance the letter may get misposted. We miss loads of post here. I get post for all sorts of people which I always either post through their door or back in to the box with a note on the front, depending on whether its a walkable distance or not. But I think quite a lot of people here don't do that anymore.

How long do you think I should wait for a letter ? Unfortunately I am not good at dealing with this kind of uncertainty and its playing havoc with my already fairly rubbish concentration skills, so studying is all over the place right now, plus I'm just not sleeping. I've been up since Friday now. (Well..I've been awake..I wish I could get up!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Reply to P Muggeridge.

I think I recall (but I'm not 100% sure) the lady saying something along the lines of while I might have paid an excess fair in the past, she and her colleague were there today so i would have to pay a penalty fare instead.

So would she have been employed by southern or someone from outside?

When I looked up the site for the number to contact it gave the impression it was a private company that acts for different train companies, not just southern. But she looked like a southern person, green uniform etc... This is very confusing.

 

[DelayRepay]

Please try to calm down. Personally I wouldn't keep calling Southern as there is every chance you will say something that incriminates yourself further (for example, "I have done this before", "it isin't usually a problem").

They will probably send you a letter asking for your version of events. When they do, I would strongly recommend you writing out your reply on a blank sheet of paper and making sure you're happy with it before you fill in the form. Ask someone to proof read it too. You need to be honest and truthful but your reply needs to be clear and stick to facts. Someone here may be kind enough to proof read your reply, if you post back to let us know when you receive the letter.

The reality is that you were travelling without a valid ticket. You thought, for whatever reason, that you could purchase the ticket at Epsom. This is incorrect because you must purchase your ticket before you board the train. The only expection to this is if there is neither an open ticket office or working ticket machine at the start of your journey.

In the circumstances, a penelty fare was the correct course of action, as this is a fare charged when someone makes an honest mistake but does not intend to defraud the railway. You said you only had £6 on you - would this have covered the tickets you needed to buy? And were you given the opportunity to pay the £6 towards the PF with the balance being settled later?

 

[island]

As you chose not to pay the Penalty Fare or the single fare for the journey just made, the company has cause to suspect you of attempting to evade the fare due for your journey. It is likely you will be able to get out of this mess, but it is also likely it will cost you a multiple of the £20 you could have settled things for.

 

[ally30_1998]

To delayrepay., thank you for replying.

OK, so don't call southern. (even if nothing arrives after a month?)

Im always honest. Often to my detriment it seems. I will Definately post back here for some input if I get a letter. I feel better knowing there is someone who seems to have some idea of what to expect.

Yes I had enough money to cover the excess return fare ( after the lady finished she sent me through the barrier to buy a ticket to come back through and it was 2.60, 2.90 for a return.)

I definately wasn't offered a chance to make part payment. Are they supposed to offer you that then? I'm fairly gutted now as I could have done that and then there wouldn't be all this uncertainty.
While I've taken on board that i have to buy the excess fair before i travel, i can't be sure I would even remember that if that situation arose again where I just crossed the platform on to another train.

I intend to use buses where I can now as there seems to be less risk of being unwittingly criminalised ( as in you get in and speak to the driver, or tap an Oyster card and its just flat rate every where in London)

I wonder what people with learning difficulties or reading problems do about travelling on the train. It must be nigh on impossible to work out what all the different rules a for the different companies. I don't understand why they don't just all follow one system and stick to it. I think the corporate model of privatisation is a bad thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As you chose not to pay the Penalty Fare or the single fare for the journey just made, the company has cause to suspect you of attempting to evade the fare due for your journey. It is likely you will be able to get out of this mess, but it is also likely it will cost you a multiple of the £20 you could have settled things for.

I did try to pay the single fare. She wouldn't let me.

 

[Wath Yard]

I did try to pay the single fare. She wouldn't let me.

She was intending to issue you with a Penalty Fare. If you get caught without a ticket then the option isn't yours. The TOC decides the appropriate course of action to take, and by the fact you refused to borrow money from your son and dad, and you state you got 'verbal', that could be taken as a refusal to pay the PF.

 

[ally30_1998]

She was intending to issue you with a Penalty Fare. If you get caught without a ticket then the option isn't yours. The TOC decides the appropriate course of action to take, and by the fact you refused to borrow money from your son and dad, and you state you got 'verbal', that could be taken as a refusal to pay the PF.

Oh ok. I think I understand what you are saying. Maybe I am getting lost in semantics.
Yes it sounds like she reacted to me reacting illogically.
I have to try and not let this consume everything ask have exams to deal with, but it's difficult. If they prosecute then I won't be accepted as a member of the professional body I am studying to join. But then I suppose one could argue that if I can't cope with a live situation like that then I shouldn't attempt to gain a professional qualification.

 

[455driver]

There is a very long way to go before anything like that MIGHT happen, it is normal (although not always the case) that once Southern have got your version of events they will offer another form of penalty fare (oops I mean admin charge) and that will be that or they decide to drop the case.

Nothing will happen until you receive the letter and then Southern receive the reply, so try to remain calm because (as stated above) there is a very longt way to go yet.

 

[island]

She was intending to issue you with a Penalty Fare. If you get caught without a ticket then the option isn't yours. The TOC decides the appropriate course of action to take, and by the fact you refused to borrow money from your son and dad, and you state you got 'verbal', that could be taken as a refusal to pay the PF.

A passenger being issued a Penalty Fare does have the option to pay the single fare due at the time and then the balance within 21 days.

 

[Wath Yard]

Yes, but she said she offered to pay the single fare and that option wasn't being offered. If people caught without tickets could just pay the cheapest fare then there wouldn't be much incentive for anybody to purchase one. It isn't clear what was said, and from reading the description, it doesn't appear the OP recalls much of the conversation either, but getting 'verbal' probably didn't help (assuming verbal means mouthy).

 

[DelayRepay]

It must be nigh on impossible to work out what all the different rules a for the different companies. I don't understand why they don't just all follow one system and stick to it. I think the corporate model of privatisation is a bad thing.

I have to take issue with this. All TOCs in the South East enforce the "buy a ticket before you travel" rule. There are notices at stations and on trains informing you of the requirement. This is nothing to do with privatisation. The only time you can buy a ticket at your destination is if you couldn't buy one at the starting station due to the lack of an open ticket office/working machine.

I'm just puzzled as to why they lump everyone in the same boat and don't accept excess fares...why have an excess fare window then? They've only just finished doing it all up so it's not as if its a redundant bit of architecture..)

The excess fares window is for those passengers who joined the train at an unstaffed station and haven't had an opportunity to buy a ticket earlier in their journey.

 

[ally30_1998]

I have to take issue with this. All TOCs in the South East enforce the "buy a ticket before you travel" rule. There are notices at stations and on trains informing you of the requirement. This is nothing to do with privatisation. The only time you can buy a ticket at your destination is if you couldn't buy one at the starting station due to the lack of an open ticket office/working machine.

Fair comment, although I was really thinking of travel within England and Wales.
So what happened in the days of British Rail? I am old enough to remember travelling by train when it was BR but I wasn't aware of things like that at that age.


The excess fares window is for those passengers who joined the train at an unstaffed station and haven't had an opportunity to buy a ticket earlier in their journey.

Ah yes, makes sense. Fair enough.

 

[RPI]

British Rail actually invented Penalty Fares! Was the RPI only allowing you a Penalty Fare if you paid on the spot? If so that is a little naughty.

 

[ally30_1998]

British Rail actually invented Penalty Fares! Was the RPI only allowing you a Penalty Fare if you paid on the spot? If so that is a little naughty.

Yes, that's right, and this was before my dad had turned up. I only found out afterwards that I could have apparently paid my £6 to her and paid the rest later.
(And in that case, I would have gone to my dads house after, as she made me go through the barrier after).

 

[Airlink]

My advice for anyone being issued a penalty fare is..

pay the fare that is owed, this should be deducted from the penalty fare amount (£20 or greater). TOC's will not prosecute any P/F's in this instance as the fare has not been avoided.

I am an RPI, I tell passengers they can pay all, none or some of the p/f or they've got 21 days to pay or appeal.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Nobody seems to have mentioned that the Freedom pass is NOT valid to/from Epsom! Although it is not relevant to the OP's MG11 situation, surely an eagle eyed RPI would have spotted this and either sold an extension BZ6 ticket or a penalty fare if warranted?!

I do have sympathy for the OP as she probably wasn't aware that Oyster is not valid to Epsom, so she may have travelled there intending to touch out! Although ignorance is not a defence in terms of validity.
I echo Airlink's post about recommending payment of the fare at least when a Penalty Fare is issued.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

It is quite awkward when London Buses run there and one can use ones oyster there on the bus I believe

 

[causton]

It is quite awkward when London Buses run there and one can use ones oyster there on the bus I believe

The same happens in a lot of places - unfortunately London Buses are prepared to pay for people to travel outside with TfL tickets but the TOCs are not!

 

[island]

I am an RPI, I tell passengers they can pay all, none or some of the p/f or they've got 21 days to pay or appeal.

Can you clarify this please? My understanding is that a passenger liable to a penalty fare must pay the single fare on the spot unless the RPI uses discretion to accept a lower/nil payment e.g. from vulnerable passengers.

 

[cuccir]

But then I suppose one could argue that if I can't cope with a live situation like that then I shouldn't attempt to gain a professional qualification.

Don't worry about this. I know plenty of people who suffer with anxiety, dyspraxia and other conditions who have high level qualifications in professional industries. It's not a barrier. However, if you can get your Asperger's diagnosed formally then you should try to!

I also just want to emphasise that DelayRepay's response covers the best advice that you can take at the moment - wait and try to put it to the back of your mind: it can take a while for the letter to be sent through to you. When you get the letter, feel free to come back here for further advice.

 

[radamfi]

What happens if the letter gets lost in the post? Surely it would be prudent to make enquiries to check if a letter was sent?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually, what kind of post is used to send these letters? Surely anything worse than Special Delivery is unacceptable? Does the addressee get punished if the letter is lost or delayed in the post?

 

[michael769]

Surely anything worse than Special Delivery is unacceptable?

Why? The legal position is that a letter sent though normal mail is delivered in the normal course of things unless the addressee can prove otherwise. All that is required is a free proof of posting.

Does the addressee get punished if the letter is lost or delayed in the post?

Not if they can prove that it was not delivered within the requisite timescale. But the onus is on the recipient to prove this.

Simple reality is that virtually all mail is delivered on time or at worst 2-3 days late (and 2-3 days rarely matters). In practice where a letter is critical it is normal practice to send a reminder just in case, the chances of both going missing are pretty much nil, unless there is a serious problem with mail in the area in which case evidence will be available in the form of complaints logged by the Royal Mail.

 

[radamfi]

There could also be administrative errors in the office preventing or delaying the letter being sent out, or the item simply being lost in the office building, which is more likely than problems in the actual posting system. Certainly there have been a number of times when I have had to phone up a bank asking if they had sent out a bank card or PIN, or a form, and they have had to send it out again.

 

[michael769]

There could also be administrative errors in the office preventing or delaying the letter being sent out, or the item simply being lost in the office building, which is more likely than problems in the actual posting system.

Indeed in my very long experience a failure to send out letters is by far the most common reason for non-arrival. In the majority of cases where a letter has genuinely failed to arrive, it usually emerges either that the sender is unable to the find the proof of postage that they initially claim to have, or that the missing letter is found in the premises.

Most organisations that send important mail recognize that this happens and will normally send out a reminder copy.

 

[ally30_1998]

Nobody seems to have mentioned that the Freedom pass is NOT valid to/from Epsom! Although it is not relevant to the OP's MG11 situation, surely an eagle eyed RPI would have spotted this and either sold an extension BZ6 ticket or a penalty fare if warranted?!

I do have sympathy for the OP as she probably wasn't aware that Oyster is not valid to Epsom, so she may have travelled there intending to touch out! Although ignorance is not a defence in terms of validity.
I echo Airlink's post about recommending payment of the fare at least when a Penalty Fare is issued.

The RPI lady was aware but said she wouldn't issue him with one, only me.
With regard touching out- I knew my Oyster wouldn't work at Epsom, but in the recent past I have been able to pay an excess fare at the window, and as I ended up at Epsom because of a diversion I assumed they would let us pay the excess fare. So I tried to pay an excess and then didn't have enough to pay the penalty there and then.
It seems apparent from what has been said here, that the RPI might have let me pay part of the penalty and pay the rest later, rather than issuing an MG11.

It does occur to me, reading these forums, that the TOC's stand to make quite a bit of money out of people who get lost, make mistakes and so on. This is the part that seems unfair from my point of view. I'm trying to think of any other public or private body that has this type of penalty but I can't think of any at the moment.
Also, as a point of possible debate, is the railway considered to be a public utility or public service anymore, or was it ever? I'm pretty sure it forms part of the infrastructure thing doesn't it?
I find myself wondering what would happen if they starting charging to use roads in the same way that they charge for railways at the moment (eg with diff TOC's having diff terms and conditions of travel yet overlapping in many places).
It's not very user friendly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

<Snipped>Simple reality is that virtually all mail is delivered on time or at worst 2-3 days late (and 2-3 days rarely matters). In practice where a letter is critical it is normal practice to send a reminder just in case, the chances of both going missing are pretty much nil, unless there is a serious problem with mail in the area in which case evidence will be available in the form of complaints logged by the Royal Mail.

I agree that post is usually on time. However, the biggest problem with post in recent years is that it too often fails to arrive at all. This seems to be for various reasons and much is to do with the regular postman or woman taking holiday and a less conscientious person covering.

I don't know about the rest of the country but its a big problem in London with domestic post. As for level of complaints indicating the size of the problem, I would have to disagree with you there, as most people are too busy to complain repeatedly. The unreliability of the postal services is a large reason why private mailing companies are doing so well and why the average person who is posting anything important has to send it registered post.

I blame privatisation m'self. I'm not a complete red, but I do think the public utilities and services should be run as such and not for profit. I wouldn't object to private ownership so much if they had to operate as co-ops or mutuals. It's the corporate shareholder model that seems such a bad fit.

Rant over!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with cuccir and DelayRepay.

the TOC's stand to make quite a bit of money out of people who get lost, make mistakes and so on. This is the part that seems unfair from my point of view. I'm trying to think of any other public or private body that has this type of penalty but I can't think of any at the moment.
Also, as a point of possible debate, is the railway considered to be a public utility or public service anymore, or was it ever? I'm pretty sure it forms part of the infrastructure thing doesn't it?
I find myself wondering what would happen if they starting charging to use roads in the same way
. . . .
I blame privatisation m'self. I'm not a complete red, but I do think the public utilities and services should be run as such and not for profit. I wouldn't object to private ownership so much if they had to operate as co-ops or mutuals. It's the corporate shareholder model that seems such a bad fit.

Rant over!

It's tough when unexpected incidents force us to review, and usually confirm, our socio-political thoughts on the state of the world, country, business, or rail travel. (and I'm no strager to those debates! or Rants!).
But in the position you are in, I cannot over-emphasise the pragmatic advice of a simple and compromised settlement.
Please, for your own sake, keep it simple, and only address the fare due for the journey made (however it is is described).

Our bigger visions for big reforms tend to be achieved elsewhere. When looking for social, political, economic reform , history illustrates some remarkable transformations and radical developments promoted by the railways. But none from ticketing disputes.

 

[snail]

I blame privatisation m'self. I'm not a complete red, but I do think the public utilities and services should be run as such and not for profit.

The penalty fare scheme was introduced by British Rail! There is nothing to say you would have been treated any differently under a publicly-owned railway.

Privatisation has many flaws but this isn't one of them.

 

[Airlink]

Can you clarify this please? My understanding is that a passenger liable to a penalty fare must pay the single fare on the spot unless the RPI uses discretion to accept a lower/nil payment e.g. from vulnerable passengers.

You can request that they pay the fare owed, however you cannot force them to.

For example, someone travels Mortlake to Richmond (SDS £2.50) without a ticket.

The penalty fare is £20.00, however they maybe requetsed to pay the £2.50, which could be deducted from the p/f, leaving a balance of £17.50 to be paid or appealed against.

However a lot of staff don't offer this, as they prefer to go down the road of all or nothing. Also if it's nil paid the TOC can go for prosecution if the p/f is not paid, but can't if the minimum fare has been paid, because the fare has not been avoided. In that case it just gets passed to debt collectors.

P/F states they have 21 days to pay or appeal, so they don't have to pay anything there and then, however if they've no means of payment on them then you're probably looking at a case of fare evasion.