Merseyrail Upgrades

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think we had a thread for this, but today the Wirral line is back running under the Mersey as far as James St for the next 3.5 months, after 6 weeks of being limited to Birkenhead Central/North with bus connections under the river.
This applies Mon-Fri, with trains cut back to Birkenhead again at weekends.

Things seemed reasonably punctual today, but they seem to be using just one platform to reverse at James St (the little used P2, with its night-club lighting!).
The timetable is still the reduced one of 15-minute services towards Chester and either New Brighton/West Kirby.
Chester trains were being stacked on the stock interchange line, while a New Brighton/West Kirby train arrived and reversed in P2, then took its turn in P2 back to Chester.
People unable to use the stairs from the platform to the lifts at James St were asked to alight at Hamilton Square to be assisted - by bus under the river maybe?

P1 has some large ventilation fans working away, presumably for the work going on on the loop line.
I didn't notice if there had been any renewals of track under the river (how would anyone know!?).

The inter-station bus arrangements at James St are now the 10A service bus to St Helens rather than dedicated RRBs.
Merseyrail staff were directing people to the bus stop, but the bus drivers seemed less than keen to accept rail tickets - but it was the first day.
They go past Lime St but the stops are well short/long of the station entrance.
Workable on a nice day, not so good in the wet.
There are definitely more folk travelling than during the Birkenhead cutbacks, but still not back to full whack, I would say.

 

[mcnw35282]

I remember network rail closing the loop line during the summers of 2007, 2009 and 2012 for track renewal work. I remember walking to James Street to catch the train to Chester. I found a temporary timetable online from 2009 where it clearly says slab track renewal works...yet these "in 1977, Star Wars was released" posters say the track is 40 years old? I tweeted merseyrail about it and they just fobbed me off.

 

[Camden]

I also recall this. And wasn't there some kind of issue afterwards where the train wheels were being flattened?

 

[mcnw35282]

I seem to remember the thing that kicked it all off was a train derailing on the approach to Liverpool Central Wirral Line platform. Network rail closed the loop over 3 summers to replace the track in sections (Central to Lime Street, Lime Street to Moorfields and Moorfields to James Street). I find it a bit odd that they're now saying the track is 40 years old?

 

[Ships]

I remember network rail closing the loop line during the summers of 2007, 2009 and 2012 for track renewal work. I remember walking to James Street to catch the train to Chester. I found a temporary timetable online from 2009 where it clearly says slab track renewal works...yet these "in 1977, Star Wars was released" posters say the track is 40 years old? I tweeted merseyrail about it and they just fobbed me off.

The slab is mostly 1977, some part have been renewed more recently, they don't renew it all a time once.

 

[daikilo]

The slab is mostly 1977, some part have been renewed more recently, they don't renew it all a time once.

I may be wrong, but I think this closure is to redo the slabs over most of/all the loop. I think on previous occasions they tried to adapt the track with little change to the slabs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I may be wrong, but I think this closure is to redo the slabs over most of/all the loop. I think on previous occasions they tried to adapt the track with little change to the slabs.

Yes, this is a much bigger job, supposedly it will be fit for another 40 years without attention.
They are also replacing the track under the river.

 

[Ships]

Yes, this is a much bigger job, supposedly it will be fit for another 40 years without attention.
They are also replacing the track under the river.

That was a rather rash promise :/

 

[QueensCurve]

Yes, this is a much bigger job, supposedly it will be fit for another 40 years without attention.
They are also replacing the track under the river.

I have a feeling I read somewhere that there is enhanced corrosion in the Loop due to a higher water table than when it was dug and the electrical effects of the third rail.

 

[Polarbear]

I have a feeling I read somewhere that there is enhanced corrosion in the Loop due to a higher water table than when it was dug and the electrical effects of the third rail.

That's correct. When the Loop Line was designed in the last 1960's/early 1970's, Liverpool had a lot more heavy industry than it does today. As the industry pulled out of the area, the water table rose and has proved to be a thorn in the side of both BR and it's successors ever since.

Some parts of the concrete trackbed in the loop have been replaced, I would guess those parts most affected by water ingress & erosion.

I presume that the current works will replace those bits of the loop line that have not already been rebuilt? Additionally, part of the works involve installing a concrete slab in the cross-river tunnel between Hamilton Square and James Street.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The job also involves pretty substantial drainage improvements. The slab will be more modern with all standard vibration/noise reduction techniques used.

 

[Statto]

I don't think we had a thread for this, but today the Wirral line is back running under the Mersey as far as James St for the next 3.5 months, after 6 weeks of being limited to Birkenhead Central/North with bus connections under the river.
This applies Mon-Fri, with trains cut back to Birkenhead again at weekends.

Things seemed reasonably punctual today, but they seem to be using just one platform to reverse at James St (the little used P2, with its night-club lighting!).
The timetable is still the reduced one of 15-minute services towards Chester and either New Brighton/West Kirby.
Chester trains were being stacked on the stock interchange line, while a New Brighton/West Kirby train arrived and reversed in P2, then took its turn in P2 back to Chester.
People unable to use the stairs from the platform to the lifts at James St were asked to alight at Hamilton Square to be assisted - by bus under the river maybe?

P1 has some large ventilation fans working away, presumably for the work going on on the loop line.
I didn't notice if there had been any renewals of track under the river (how would anyone know!?).

The inter-station bus arrangements at James St are now the 10A service bus to St Helens rather than dedicated RRBs.
Merseyrail staff were directing people to the bus stop, but the bus drivers seemed less than keen to accept rail tickets - but it was the first day.
They go past Lime St but the stops are well short/long of the station entrance.
Workable on a nice day, not so good in the wet.
There are definitely more folk travelling than during the Birkenhead cutbacks, but still not back to full whack, I would say.

I'm surprised that drivers on the 10A seem not that keen to accept rail tickets, as that's been advertised since last summer as the connection between James Street & Lime Street, i have a Merseytravel issued ENCTS pass, so i'll use the 14/14A instead for the connection, with that being more frequent & stops outside James Street rather than a bit up the hill.

Actually, when trains have been going to/from James Street due to works, there's always been a dedicated rail replacement every few minutes, rather than directing pax to use normal service buses, surprised the James Street-Lime Street link not been done this way now.

 

[QueensCurve]

The job also involves pretty substantial drainage improvements. The slab will be more modern with all standard vibration/noise reduction techniques used.

Reflecting the high water table problem.

Are new pumping stations required for this?

 

[Elecman]

No the existing pumps at Mann Island and Shore Road will cope admirably, there are also pumps at Liverpool Central

 

[D1009]

I'm surprised that drivers on the 10A seem not that keen to accept rail tickets, as that's been advertised since last summer as the connection between James Street & Lime Street, i have a Merseytravel issued ENCTS pass, so i'll use the 14/14A instead for the connection, with that being more frequent & stops outside James Street rather than a bit up the hill.

That's got me thinking. Is it reasonable to expect bus drivers when presented with a rail ticket, to know what is or isn't valid, or should they accept every rail ticket presented?

 

[lfc2014uk]

First time the closed was to replace track only. Problem was the guy in charge got metric and imperial mixed up causing the wheels to degrade so fast that 30% of fleet had to be withdrawn to change the wheels. 2009 sections of the loop where replaced with electrical and drainage. But it seems that at both these times the ancient slabs where never replaced until now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

First time the closed was to replace track only. Problem was the guy in charge got metric and imperial mixed up causing the wheels to degrade so fast that 30% of fleet had to be withdrawn to change the wheels. 2009 sections of the loop where replaced with electrical and drainage. But it seems that at both these times the ancient slabs where never replaced until now.

Before 2009 the loop tunnel was very wet and you could see/hear running water from the Lime St platform.
No doubt they had to fix the leaks before tackling the slab.

 

[joke2711]

Had the pleasure of using Merseyrail yesterday evening for a trip to Liverpool. Planned Journey was the 1636 from Manor Road to arrive James Street 1659 and then a brisk 10/15 minute walk to Lime Street for the 1723 to Newton-Le-Willows.

On arrival at Manor Road passengers were told that all trains were terminating at Hamilton Square. This is now going to happen on the West Kirby Services between 4pm and 6pm, so I guess it is to do with passenger flow at James Street. At Hamilton Square passengers were left on the Platform as the train made its way to James Street empty to run back to West Kirby. The next train was 10 minutes later from Chester so although a vain attempt of a mini-jog I missed my planned train at Lime Street.

I was pretty annoyed as this service schedule was planned and advertised for months but now West Kirby line users have to suffer further inconvenience (at certain times) on top of the reduced service.

Thinking about it, they should have just kept the bus operation running for 6 months. It worked perfectly well, didn't take that much longer and called at 2 stations in Liverpool not just the one.

Also, James Street was hardly problematic, easy to exit the station, well controlled, so is there any point?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I hadn't realised till this week that there is no crossover from the Liverpool-bound river tunnel into P1 at James St, and only P2/3 can be used to reverse trains.
P1/3 (loop) do not appear to be being used at the moment, so there's only the old unmodernised P2 left.
Nor can Liverpool-bound trains from West Kirby reach P2/3 at Hamilton Square for reversing.
It all reduces the flexibility of the system during disruption.

 

[507021]

Thinking about it, they should have just kept the bus operation running for 6 months. It worked perfectly well, didn't take that much longer and called at 2 stations in Liverpool not just the one.

It did work very well indeed, but the (very nice, in my view) Volvo double deckers which were used on the rail replacement services are needed in service at Arriva's Green Lane and Speke garages to enable the start of a fleet-wide cascade to replace vehicles in the North West and also Wales which are close to or already sixteen years old.

It'll be interesting to see what buses are used for Phase 3, though.

 

[jamesst]

I hadn't realised till this week that there is no crossover from the Liverpool-bound river tunnel into P1 at James St, and only P2/3 can be used to reverse trains.
P1/3 (loop) do not appear to be being used at the moment, so there's only the old unmodernised P2 left.
Nor can Liverpool-bound trains from West Kirby reach P2/3 at Hamilton Square for reversing.
It all reduces the flexibility of the system during disruption.

James Street platform 1 and 2 can both be accessed from the Wirral direction,platform 3 can't. Platform 1 is due to reopen next week meaning 2 platforms will be used to turn trains back which in turn should ease the current congestion involved with using just one.

Trains leaving Hamilton Square towards Liverpool (platform 1) can reverse back into Platforms 2& 3 at Hamilton Square by means of a crossover just beyond the station.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

James Street platform 1 and 2 can both be accessed from the Wirral direction,platform 3 can't. Platform 1 is due to reopen next week meaning 2 platforms will be used to turn trains back which in turn should ease the current congestion involved with using just one.
Trains leaving Hamilton Square towards Liverpool (platform 1) can reverse back into Platforms 2& 3 at Hamilton Square by means of a crossover just beyond the station.

Yes I got my James St platforms the wrong way round, it's P3 that can't be reached except by going round the loop.
P1 reopening will certainly help.

 

[Ianigsy]

That's correct. When the Loop Line was designed in the last 1960's/early 1970's, Liverpool had a lot more heavy industry than it does today. As the industry pulled out of the area, the water table rose and has proved to be a thorn in the side of both BR and it's successors ever since.

Some parts of the concrete trackbed in the loop have been replaced, I would guess those parts most affected by water ingress & erosion.

I think this reached a nadir in the mid-1990s with regular cancellations, short workings and turnbacks at James Street due to electrical problems in the Loop. It didn't help that this was also the time when a large chunk of the fleet was stored, so not uncommon for New Brighton and Ellesmere Port to be worked as shuttles from Birkenhead North and Hooton due to stock shortages as well.

Visiting family last week, I arrived in Liverpool on a Leeds-Liverpool advance and walked down to Sir Thomas Street for the 407 service bus rather than buy another ticket in the Merseyrail ticket office, find the 10A stop, go to James Street and then board a train. The cross-river buses seem to be taking a lot of the strain, which is perhaps understandable because of the amount of time you could potentially be waiting for connections.

On the Friday I took the train from Birkenhead North to James Street- it was almost like travelling 40-odd years ago, being held outside James Street waiting for the earlier train to clear the platform! Interesting to see a Chester train arrive, be cleared and then moved onto the transfer line for a New Brighton to arrive and depart- I suspect that time is being lost due to this manoeuvre which might account for the West Kirby trains being turned back short.

 

[joke2711]

A second platform is opening today at James Street so it will be interesting to see whether the same restriction applies.

I travelled again on Saturday and of course it was bus replacement from Birkenhead North. So much more convenient for Liverpool Lime Street, I really think they should look at doing something on weekdays.

Sadly though, the 1920 bus from St Georges Hall to Birkenhead North stank and I say this mildly. The smell was so strong that everyone downstairs were covering their faces and or holding their noses. Two Merseyrail employees were on the bus and they couldn't believe it. No idea what it was, there was nothing visible, but it was disgusting. Reported it to the driver who eventually radioed through that he may have a problem lol

 

[urbophile]

Sadly though, the 1920 bus from St Georges Hall to Birkenhead North stank

Only to be expected of a vehicle that old.

 

[lfc2014uk]

A second platform is opening today at James Street so it will be interesting to see whether the same restriction applies.

I travelled again on Saturday and of course it was bus replacement from Birkenhead North. So much more convenient for Liverpool Lime Street, I really think they should look at doing something on weekdays.

Sadly though, the 1920 bus from St Georges Hall to Birkenhead North stank and I say this mildly. The smell was so strong that everyone downstairs were covering their faces and or holding their noses. Two Merseyrail employees were on the bus and they couldn't believe it. No idea what it was, there was nothing visible, but it was disgusting. Reported it to the driver who eventually radioed through that he may have a problem lol

Same happened to my family but on airport bus 80A it stank of wee. I think it caused by chemicals in cleaning products they use at depots in Liverpool already complained to Arriva on twitter.

 

[Wavertreelad]

That's correct. When the Loop Line was designed in the last 1960's/early 1970's, Liverpool had a lot more heavy industry than it does today. As the industry pulled out of the area, the water table rose and has proved to be a thorn in the side of both BR and it's successors ever since.

.

I seem to remember reading that the Liverpool Echo building was heated by water from the water table.

 

[furnessvale]

I seem to remember reading that the Liverpool Echo building was heated by water from the water table.

The other way round. The cool water was used for air conditioning.

New pumps were fitted in the Pierhead pumping station and a pipeline laid to the Echo building. IIRC the pipe was stainless steel.

I was resident engineer on the pumphouse side of the job. Before we fitted the new access staircase, it was "interesting" being lowered down the 135ft access shaft in a bucket!

 

[joke2711]

Same happened to my family but on airport bus 80A it stank of wee. I think it caused by chemicals in cleaning products they use at depots in Liverpool already complained to Arriva on twitter.

No this definitely smelt as if there had been a body hidden under the seats since 1920 ... pungent and was making everyone feel ill. One of those smells that gets in your throat for ages after!

 

[trainophile]

Wirral line fully reopened today . I'm on my way to West Kirby, which is ideal for this weather. Even got a free cupcake at Central!

A huge Well Done for all the engineers who have worked tirelessly and brought the project in bang on time.

(Got a feeling there must be another thread about this but I can't find one - please merge or delete mine if so.)