Merseyrail: Should the Ormskirk-Hunts X pairing become permanent?

[TheSel]

As a user of the least busy station on the Hunts Cross section (Cressington) I agree it doesn't really warrant more than 4tph. But the forthcoming Baltic station really needs more than that to justify its existence as an inner-city metro station (other stations a similar distance from Central on the present system get more). Arguably Brunswick should too. St Michaels has a densely populated catchment area with a high proportion of young non-car-owning professionals. If it were possible to turn trains at St Michaels that would help a great deal both to satisfy and stimulate demand. If it's operationally more convenient, and there are enough units available, they could be turned at South Parkway if not Hunts Cross.

If the alternative to waiting fifteen minutes for a fifteen or twenty minute journey is to wait nearly as long for a 45 minute bus ride, most people would probably still wait for the train. If you were waiting at, say, Baltic, fifteen minutes for a two minute journey when you could hop on a bus, or even walk, to your destination before the next train arrived, you'd probably not bother with the station. Yes I know that some people travelling from Baltic will be making a longer journey, but I bet most won't be.

The shorter the journey, the more frequent the service needs to be.

I agree with the vast majority of this, but with reference to Liverpool Baltic station, it needs to be noted that Section 4.3 of the 'Liverpool Baltic Highways and Public Realm Transport Assessment October 2024' document (too big to attach, but can be downloaded here) states:


4.3 Service Operation

The new station will be located between Liverpool Central (to the north) and Brunswick (to the south) on the Merseyrail Northern Line.

Service frequency at the station will be the same as existing on the Northern Line. In summary this consists of (start and end times taken from existing Brunswick Station):

● Weekdays and Saturdays: One train every 15 minutes in each direction through the day and evening between 06:14 and 23:48.

● On Sundays: One train every 30 minutes between 08:17 and 23:47

Accordingly, it is likely that the station will open to the public approximately 06:00 – 00:00.


It seems likely the business case for the station is based on this provision, so I doubt you'll see any enhancement in service provision in the short or mid term.

 

[urbophile]

I agree with the vast majority of this, but with reference to Liverpool Baltic station, it needs to be noted that Section 4.3 of the 'Liverpool Baltic Highways and Public Realm Transport Assessment October 2024' document (too big to attach, but can be downloaded here) states:


4.3 Service Operation

The new station will be located between Liverpool Central (to the north) and Brunswick (to the south) on the Merseyrail Northern Line.

Service frequency at the station will be the same as existing on the Northern Line. In summary this consists of (start and end times taken from existing Brunswick Station):

● Weekdays and Saturdays: One train every 15 minutes in each direction through the day and evening between 06:14 and 23:48.

● On Sundays: One train every 30 minutes between 08:17 and 23:47

Accordingly, it is likely that the station will open to the public approximately 06:00 – 00:00.


It seems likely the business case for the station is based on this provision, so I doubt you'll see any enhancement in service provision in the short or mid term.

I don't understand economics but if they can base a good business case on that frequency, it would surely be an even better deal with twice or more the number of trains.

 

[Djgr]

I don't understand economics but if they can base a good business case on that frequency, it would surely be an even better deal with twice or more the number of trains.

I think that there does come a point of diminishing returns.

However, undoubtedly South Liverpool, particularly in the context of Baltic Triangle development, needs a much better than half hourly evening service.

What are the practical options for trains turning back at Liverpool Baltic, Brunswick or St. Michael's?

As an aside for our Southern friends, did you know that Brunswick yields about as many passenger journeys as, for example, Bletchley?

 

[jamesst]

I think that there does come a point of diminishing returns.

However, undoubtedly South Liverpool, particularly in the context of Baltic Triangle development, needs a much better than half hourly evening service.

What are the practical options for trains turning back at Liverpool Baltic, Brunswick or St. Michael's?

As an aside for our Southern friends, did you know that Brunswick yields about as many passenger journeys as, for example, Bletchley?

The only place for turning trains south of Liverpool aside from Hunts Cross is Liverpool South Parkway, theres no plans to install any more turnback points anywhere else.

The through Southport to Hunts Cross service will be back, a lack of cover to release drivers to do training and unit shortages being the main issues so far.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside for our Southern friends, did you know that Brunswick yields about as many passenger journeys as, for example, Bletchley?

Bletchley, which has, umm, 4tph, and 2 at very quiet times? Admittedly also a couple of peak extras but that's because of the depot meaning they are just ECSs running in service.

There is this tendency in people who aren't from the South East in thinking that it's a land of milk, honey and a train every 2 minutes. It's not, that's just London Underground, and not even all of it. 2tph suburban services are very typical.

 

[Djgr]

I think that there does come a point of diminishing returns.

However, undoubtedly South Liverpool, particularly in the context of Baltic Triangle development, needs a much better than half hourly evening service.

What are the practical options for trains turning back at Liverpool Baltic, Brunswick or St. Michael's?

As an aside for our Southern friends, did you know that Brunswick yields about as many passenger journeys as, for example, Bletchley?

The point I was making is that the Forum tends to vastly downplay the importance of rail in the Liverpool City region (e.g. never ending arguments about why Liverpool doesn't "deserve" a through train service to basically anywhere).

Who knew, for example, that Moorfields has way more passengers than, say, West Croydon?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The point I was making is that the Forum tends to vastly downplay the importance of rail in the Liverpool City region (e.g. never ending arguments about why Liverpool doesn't "deserve" a through train service to basically anywhere).

Who knew, for example, that Moorfields has way more passengers than, say, West Croydon?

Rail within the LCR is very important (and Merseyrail, like Metrolink, is successful enough that plenty of posh people who would be totally car-bound in many places won't think of driving into Liverpool). However the reason it doesn't deserve as strong a long distance service is its location on a pair of peninsulas - that limits the catchment for long distance rail to basically the Merseyrail map (and not even all of it, as people towards its east will tend to Preston, Wigan and Warrington for London services), unlike say Manchester which is a useful connectional hub from a massive area including much of the North West (including Merseyside), Yorkshire and Cheshire.

The arguments about Brunswick/Baltic and Lime St long distance services are thus VERY different from one another.

(I'll admit I'm surprised Brunswick is that popular, though - what does it serve that brings in that level of traffic? It's basically on the edge of Toxteth, which is a run-down primarily residential area, no?)

As for West Croydon, though, it's a fairly minor suburban station. East Croydon is your big hub there.

 

[urbophile]

(I'll admit I'm surprised Brunswick is that popular, though - what does it serve that brings in that level of traffic? It's basically on the edge of Toxteth, which is a run-down primarily residential area, no?)

Business park employing lots of young carless people, generating more inward traffic than most suburban stations. Increasing numbers of (so-called luxury) apartment blocks, and slowly but steadily gentrifying residential streets. Poor bus service until you get further up the hill nearer to Park Road. Also there is a small car park which encourages some passengers to drive from further out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Business park employing lots of young carless people, generating more inward traffic than most suburban stations. Increasing numbers of (so-called luxury) apartment blocks, and slowly but steadily gentrifying residential streets. Poor bus service until you get further up the hill nearer to Park Road. Also there is a small car park which encourages some passengers to drive from further out.

Interesting, so a successful regeneration catalyst for that bit of Toxteth then I guess?

 

[TheSel]

Business park employing lots of young carless people, generating more inward traffic than most suburban stations. Increasing numbers of (so-called luxury) apartment blocks, and slowly but steadily gentrifying residential streets. Poor bus service until you get further up the hill nearer to Park Road. Also there is a small car park which encourages some passengers to drive from further out.

... and increasingly folks from the Northern end of the Merseyrail Northern line are getting to realise that Brunswick is the easiest place to change from the train to the 500 express bus service to/from the airport.

Image from Google Maps, showing the bus stop(s) directly outside the station entrance.

 

[Mr. SW]

If you wanted to install a turnback siding somewhere south of Brunswick or St Michael's, I think there may be space just north of Aigburth Station on the western side of the line. This area was once occupied by a couple of tracks that were used to hold goods trains before they went through the bottleneck of Dingle Tunnel (Arrowed below). The plot of land is over 500 metres long, but you probably only need a small section for a single track of about 170 metres or so. Also, the cutting widens just south of Cressington for about 300m so you might be able to get a siding there, if you really wanted to do that. It's a little too far south in my opinion.

I grabbed this off NLS Maps...

It once served a small dock, hence the curved earthworks. Otterspool Station (disused) is top left, Aigburth Station is bottom right. As far as I can tell the land has not been developed.

 

[Djgr]

Interesting, so a successful regeneration catalyst for that bit of Toxteth then I guess

A good example of integrated redevelopment, with new and revitalised housing, new businesses and new public transport.

And that's why Liverpool Baltic station is so important, which I believe will be like Brunswick on steroids.