Merseyrail: Should the Ormskirk-Hunts X pairing become permanent?

[Bletchleyite]

So Liverpool Central to Hunts Cross does not need 8 cars.
In which case the Southport's should be to Liverpool Central to concentrate the extra units on the sections that are actually overcrowded at 4 cars

The halved frequency on Sundays while the Ormskirks run to Hunts Cross is probably more of an issue. Otherwise if Ormskirk-Hunts X is a better pairing capacity wise why not make it permanent? There never appears to be much traffic across Liverpool, it's just done for operational convenience.

 

[Kite159]

Agreed there.

Off course the solution for the Sunday frequency is Merseyrail running a 4tph on all lines (bar Ellesmere Port) on Sundays, but that will probably cost a bit more money

 

[M28361M]

The halved frequency on Sundays while the Ormskirks run to Hunts Cross is probably more of an issue.

Hunts Cross was always half hourly on Sundays. Even in the summer when Southport is boosted to 4tph on Sundays, every other service terminates at Liverpool Central and doesn't run to Hunts Cross.

It's the 15 minute evening frequency on Mon-Sat evenings that has been lost. This was introduced not long after Liverpool South Parkway opened, to give an improved frequency to what supposedly a "flagship" station. It was fairly straightforward to introduce as Southport already had a 15 minute evening frequency and extending the Liverpool terminators to Hunts Cross only needed one extra unit and crew, I believe.

Merseyrail could address the loss of evening services by extending the evening Headbolt Lane services to also continue to Hunts Cross, although I'm not sure if there are sufficient 777/1s to allow for this.

Otherwise if Ormskirk-Hunts X is a better pairing capacity wise why not make it permanent? There never appears to be much traffic across Liverpool, it's just done for operational convenience.

When the line to Garston reopened in 1978 it was Kirkby services that ran through. It was a few years later that the service was adjusted to run to/from Southport, and that pattern has remained ever since, except for a few months during COVID when a Ormskirk-Hunts Cross service ran similar to that which runs at the moment.

I live on the Hunts Cross line and did make use of the cross-Liverpool link to travel up towards Southport. The current Sunday timetable has unsatisfactory waits of up to 20 minutes in Liverpool for connections. The reduction in evening frequency has also been annoying. So for purely selfish reasons I would like to see it revert to Southport. On the other hand, the instances of "semi-fast" services where a late running service runs non-stop from Central to Hunts Cross have been greatly reduced, although that may be thanks to the 777s (when they work) being able to make up time as the services are still timed for 507s.

As an aside, Realtime Trains shows that during the Grand National meeting the temporary service temporarily reverts to Hunts Cross-Southport presumably to allow 8 cars on Ormskirk/Aintree services.

Agreed there.

Off course the solution for the Sunday frequency is Merseyrail running a 4tph on all lines (bar Ellesmere Port) on Sundays, but that will probably cost a bit more money

I think the demand is there for 4tph on Sundays, at least in the "shopping hours" approx 10am-5pm. But that's probably a separate thread.

 

[Northsky]

The halved frequency on Sundays while the Ormskirks run to Hunts Cross is probably more of an issue. Otherwise if Ormskirk-Hunts X is a better pairing capacity wise why not make it permanent? There never appears to be much traffic across Liverpool, it's just done for operational convenience.

There definately is cross Liverpool traffic.

Using publicly available ticket data shows that journeys originating at Liverpool South Parkway for stations served exclusively on the southport line are more than the Ormskirk and Kirkby branches combined. (S: 15%, O: 7%, K: 3%). I would presume data for all other Hunts Cross line stations are not wildly different.

This is before connections are taken into account. Liverpool South Parkway is an important interchange for those accessing national rail services from Northern areas of LCR. Through running from Southport to Hunts Cross needs restoring as soon as practically possible.

 

[frodshamfella]

I have friends in Ainsdale who travel to Liverpool Airport frequently, I'm pretty sure they would like to see the service revert back to Southport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have friends in Ainsdale who travel to Liverpool Airport frequently, I'm pretty sure they would like to see the service revert back to Southport.

I bet those who live on the Ormskirk line will, by contrast, like it. Horses for courses.

 

[frodshamfella]

I bet those who live on the Ormskirk line will, by contrast, like it. Horses for courses.

Well im sure there are , Liverpool Airport is getting ever popular.

 

[Ribbleman]

There definately is cross Liverpool traffic.

Using publicly available ticket data shows that journeys originating at Liverpool South Parkway for stations served exclusively on the southport line are more than the Ormskirk and Kirkby branches combined. (S: 15%, O: 7%, K: 3%). I would presume data for all other Hunts Cross line stations are not wildly different.

This is before connections are taken into account. Liverpool South Parkway is an important interchange for those accessing national rail services from Northern areas of LCR. Through running from Southport to Hunts Cross needs restoring as soon as practically possible.

It is still the plan to restore Southport-Hunts Cross through running once the SDO is implemented. Testing continues with the original date of April now being put back to May.

 

[amahy]

I have friends in Ainsdale who travel to Liverpool Airport frequently, I'm pretty sure they would like to see the service revert back to Southport.

I don’t think a 5 minute change on the same platform at Liverpool Central should be a big deal.

 

[frodshamfella]

I don’t think a 5 minute change on the same platform at Liverpool Central should be a big deal.

Not for me, but some never like to change trains

 

[jamesst]

Not for me, but some never like to change trains

Likely to continue for a while yet I'm afraid

 

[TheSel]

Branch Line News from The Branch Line Society has a link to

https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/may2025/

which suggests Southport - Hunts Cross running restarts 18 May 2025. TT attached.

 

[MR-507508]

Branch Line News from The Branch Line Society has a link to

https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/may2025/

which suggests Southport - Hunts Cross running restarts 18 May 2025. TT attached.

Noticed the WTT has been updated on RTT showing the current Ormskirk to Hunts Cross timetable to be in place until at least the start August.

8 cars have ran in passenger service on the Hunts Cross to Liverpool Central stretch of the line during the Aintree races, skipping Cressington Station. It appears more are planned to run on the Sunday of the May Bank Holiday.

 

[modernrail]

I was completely thrown by this when changing at Liverpool South Parkway just now.

As somebody who changes at LSP to Southport but infrequently, it is at least a novelty to have to change at Central as well.

 

[nr758123]

Southport should have through trains to wherever it want through trains to.

 

[urbophile]

Evening services, as well as Sundays, reduced to every 30 minutes is not ideal.

Although the Hunts Cross section is not as heavily used as Central to Southport, it would benefit by a better frequency at least from St Michaels northwards. Most other sections of Merseyrail within that distance of the city centre share services and so provide at least 8tph. It will be hard to justify the new Baltic station if the frequency is not improved to metro standards. The answer seems obvious: keep Ormskirk - Hunts Cross and restore the Southport service too; perhaps terminating one of them at South Parkway if that is operationally easier.

 

[jamesst]

Southports will be going back through to Hunts Cross with Ormskirks reverting to Liverpool Central, yet to hear a finalised date though.

 

[The exile]

There definately is cross Liverpool traffic.

Using publicly available ticket data shows that journeys originating at Liverpool South Parkway for stations served exclusively on the southport line are more than the Ormskirk and Kirkby branches combined. (S: 15%, O: 7%, K: 3%). I would presume data for all other Hunts Cross line stations are not wildly different.

How much cause and effect is in there, though? I'd expect, however, more traffic towards Southport, though, if for no other reason that the line is longer. However, it also has more "destinations" that the other two lines (OK - the Ormskirk line will trump it on at least one weekend every year...)

 

[Djgr]

Evening services, as well as Sundays, reduced to every 30 minutes is not ideal.

Although the Hunts Cross section is not as heavily used as Central to Southport, it would benefit by a better frequency at least from St Michaels northwards. Most other sections of Merseyrail within that distance of the city centre share services and so provide at least 8tph. It will be hard to justify the new Baltic station if the frequency is not improved to metro standards. The answer seems obvious: keep Ormskirk - Hunts Cross and restore the Southport service too; perhaps terminating one of them at South Parkway if that is operationally easier.

Although I don't think that there is a correct answer for Southport versus Ormskirk, the point is well made for enhanced frequency to Hunts Cross, particularly with Liverpool Baltic coming on stream.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although I don't think that there is a correct answer for Southport versus Ormskirk, the point is well made for enhanced frequency to Hunts Cross, particularly with Liverpool Baltic coming on stream.

Will there be scope to turn trains at Baltic? There's surely enough time in the Ormskirk circuit to do that, indeed it should be possible to speed it up as a result (it's very sluggish at present, seemingly deliberately to avoid two trains attempting to be at Ormskirk at once).

 

[Djgr]

Will there be scope to turn trains at Baltic? There's surely enough time in the Ormskirk circuit to do that, indeed it should be possible to speed it up as a result (it's very sluggish at present, seemingly deliberately to avoid two trains attempting to be at Ormskirk at once).

Well in theory there could be! Perhaps Brunswick might be better?


It is certainly not the case that Merseyrail trains have always gone all the way "to the end of the line" e.g. Birkenhead Central.

Was Hall Road used as a turnaround in the past?

 

[TheSel]

Well in theory there could be! Perhaps Brunswick might be better?


It is certainly not the case that Merseyrail trains have always gone all the way "to the end of the line" e.g. Birkenhead Central.

Was Hall Road used as a turnaround in the past?

Yes - very much so, which is why there used to be a central siding - i.e. between the up and down lines, to facilitate such moves.

... and it is only this week that a plaque was unveiled at Hall Road, commemorating 120 years since 'The Hall Road Disaster' - link here to BBC's article headlined: "The 'terrible accident' that killed 21 people".

Quote from said article:

On 27 July 1905, a Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway express train from Liverpool to Southport was approaching Hall Road station, Blundellsands, when it struck an empty stationary train.

 

[MR-507508]

There is still no sign of the Hunts Cross to Southport route returning, with RTT now showing the current setup of Hunts Cross to Ormskirk and Liverpool Central to Southport until at least the December timetable change.
It is 1 year to the day since the current 'temporary' timetable became implemented.

 

[TheSel]

There is still no sign of the Hunts Cross to Southport route returning, with RTT now showing the current setup of Hunts Cross to Ormskirk and Liverpool Central to Southport until at least the December timetable change.
It is 1 year to the day since the current 'temporary' timetable became implemented.

An article in the Liverpool echo a few days ago on this very subject. Link here.

A handful of relevant quotes:

"Transport bosses could not give us a time-frame for when the ongoing testing will be completed and the timetable will revert back - but suggested the changes will only continue in the "short-term"."

"A spokesperson for the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority, said: “A revised timetable has been running on parts of the Northern Line due to the ongoing roll-out of the new train fleet and to facilitate testing of our new eight-car trains and associated systems."

“This work is still to be fully concluded and as a result these timetable arrangements will remain in place.

"We can confirm these changes are on a short-term basis and we will provide a full update once all work has been completed."

 

[BerkshireRails]

Why don't you do both and have 4tph to Southport and 4tph to Ormskirk from Hunts Cross? I get you would need more trains.

 

[TheSel]

Why don't you do both and have 4tph to Southport and 4tph to Ormskirk from Hunts Cross? I get you would need more trains.

Hunts Cross to Liverpool does not warrant 8 tph - on top of which, the [effectively] single line infrastructure from Liverpool South Parkway to Hunts Cross could not support such a frequency.

The biggest issue with the current 'temporary' arrangement is the dropping to half-hourly of the evening frequency between Hunts Cross and Liverpool Central [LVC]. (The vocal Southport lobby might argue that's not their biggest issue, but let's ignore that for now ...)

That, I suppose, COULD be resolved with an evening service comprising 2 x Hunts Cross - Ormskirk (as now) plus two of the present four Southport - LVC being extended to Hunts Cross, but this does the square root of b*gger all to resolve the other outstanding issue of the apparent inability to run 8 car formations between LVC and Hunts Cross calling all stations.

As well as a loss of clock face frequency, complex reworking of diagrams would be required, not only to ensure the correct workings on SOP-LVC-HNX were 4, rather than 8 cars, but also you'd have issues with the interaction with the Liverpool - Warrington (and beyond) services at Hunts Cross West Junction.

Essentially, it's not impossible, just simply not worthwhile if the present arrangement really is "temporary".

 

[urbophile]

As a user of the least busy station on the Hunts Cross section (Cressington) I agree it doesn't really warrant more than 4tph. But the forthcoming Baltic station really needs more than that to justify its existence as an inner-city metro station (other stations a similar distance from Central on the present system get more). Arguably Brunswick should too. St Michaels has a densely populated catchment area with a high proportion of young non-car-owning professionals. If it were possible to turn trains at St Michaels that would help a great deal both to satisfy and stimulate demand. If it's operationally more convenient, and there are enough units available, they could be turned at South Parkway if not Hunts Cross.

If the alternative to waiting fifteen minutes for a fifteen or twenty minute journey is to wait nearly as long for a 45 minute bus ride, most people would probably still wait for the train. If you were waiting at, say, Baltic, fifteen minutes for a two minute journey when you could hop on a bus, or even walk, to your destination before the next train arrived, you'd probably not bother with the station. Yes I know that some people travelling from Baltic will be making a longer journey, but I bet most won't be.

The shorter the journey, the more frequent the service needs to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I've also suggested using it for Burscough in another thread, there is a lot of slack in Ormskirk-Liverpool at present, with 35 minute running times rather than the 25 minutes it was in the 1980s. I'd be pretty confident that this is artificially slowed down, and so by using the full capabilities of the 777s it should be possible to free up enough time in an Ormskirk run to extend all such services to terminate at Baltic or Brunswick instead of Liverpool Central. Do either of these have reversing sidings or could they be installed there?

There's absolutely slack in the Headbolt service to do that - you have two units there for a fair bit of the time which means very long layovers on what is a very short service, so those could be extended as well or instead.

 

[BerkshireRails]

While I've also suggested using it for Burscough in another thread, there is a lot of slack in Ormskirk-Liverpool at present, with 35 minute running times rather than the 25 minutes it was in the 1980s. I'd be pretty confident that this is artificially slowed down, and so by using the full capabilities of the 777s it should be possible to free up enough time in an Ormskirk run to extend all such services to terminate at Baltic or Brunswick instead of Liverpool Central. Do either of these have reversing sidings or could they be installed there?

There isn't one now and most of it is in a tunnel. Brunswick maybe be possible to add a third platform or turnback siding in.

If you can one stop more St Michaels would be somewhat easier to build the turnback siding as you could use retaining walls to widen the cutting to enable a third track.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From a look at an aerial view of Brunswick it appears you'd have to rejig the footbridge (maybe switching from ramped to lifts) but it certainly appears there would easily be room for a full length bay platform on the other side of the present southbound platform.