Merseyrail Penalty Fares

[Polarbear]

I've sent an e-mail to Merseyrail today to ask about the permit to travel facilitiy.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have studied all of the publicity Merseyrail have placed in the public domain & unless I'm missing something, there is nothing to tell customers about the permit to travel (PTT) facility.

The last ticket machine that was installed at Bache was often vandalised & frequently did not work. Whllst I expect the new machine to be somewhat more robust, the trail of empty cans of strong alcohol that litter Bache station some mornings suggest that it's still a hangout for those that may have other ideas about ticket machines other than the buying of tickets!

The posters tell customers to buy a ticket before they travel & are clear about the possibility of a £20 penalty fare. Not one of the posters makes reference to the permit to travel facility, nor do they tell customers what to do if the ticket machine is not working. Indeed, there is not even a mention of the PTT facility on the posters. To me, this would put potential customers off using the railway as if for whatever reason they cannot purchase a ticket, they wouldn't want to run the risk of a PF.

Added to this, I can't see that the PTT machine, (or the info screen below it) has been brough into use as yet.

Legally, I would imagine that Merseyrail would have a hard time of it if someone was PF'd due to the unavailability of the ticket machine & not having a PTT, based on the lack of clear instruction.

 

[First class]

The PTT machines will be removed shortly.

This is due to a hardware/software conflict.

 

[nedchester]

The PTT machines will be removed shortly.

This is due to a hardware/software conflict.

Ooops!! That was a waste of money!

 

[Addy]

Hello, just a quick question.

Is it possible to purchase a ticket using 50% cash and paying the rest on my card? Bit skint before payday and this would be the only method I can use to get to work!

Many thanks,
Adam.

 

[First class]

Hello, just a quick question.

Is it possible to purchase a ticket using 50% cash and paying the rest on my card? Bit skint before payday and this would be the only method I can use to get to work!

Many thanks,
Adam.

Nope... certainly not at a machine.

I'm not even sure you can do this at a Merseyrail full ticket office or with any other TOC.

Unfourtunately, you're going to have a long walk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just a little trivia with these machines, Select Bootle Stations from any TVM at a staffed station on the Merseyrail network and you can only select an Anytime Single- priced at a very competitive amount -

SDS - ANYTIME DAY S RMS
00000 - ANY PERMITTED

1 Adult @£ 9999.00 = £ 9999.00
__________
£ 9999.00

Standard Class Single

 

[scrapy]

Hello, just a quick question.

Is it possible to purchase a ticket using 50% cash and paying the rest on my card? Bit skint before payday and this would be the only method I can use to get to work!

Many thanks,
Adam.

can certainally be done on the advantix machine. The card payment should be taken first (and the payment amount needs to be manually changed), the balance will can then be paid cash.

ATOC guidelines state that all TOCs must accept cheques, with bankers cards as a form of payment and copper (up to 20p). Do the machines accept copper? How do passengers wanting to pay by cheque get on with Penalty Fares if the permit to travel machines are removed? surely a fare dodger could just carry their cheque book everyday, saying they intend to pay by cheque if gripped.

 

[First class]

can certainally be done on the advantix machine. The card payment should be taken first (and the payment amount needs to be manually changed), the balance will can then be paid cash.

ATOC guidelines state that all TOCs must accept cheques, with bankers cards as a form of payment and copper (up to 20p). Do the machines accept copper? How do passengers wanting to pay by cheque get on with Penalty Fares if the permit to travel machines are removed? surely a fare dodger could just carry their cheque book everyday, saying they intend to pay by cheque if gripped.

As Merseyrail said in their email response (above) passengers wanting to pay by certain methods/obtain certain tickets need to do so in advance at a staffed station. Anybody boarding a train without a ticket regardless of reason will be PFd. Whether that is a correct and legal response is questionable.

The machines also do not take copper. It would be unreasonable to expect to pay by cheque as a Guarantee Card would need to be presented.

 

[nedchester]

As Merseyrail said in their email response (above) passengers wanting to pay by certain methods/obtain certain tickets need to do so in advance at a staffed station. Anybody boarding a train without a ticket regardless of reason will be PFd. Whether that is a correct and legal response is questionable.

The machines also do not take copper. It would be unreasonable to expect to pay by cheque as a Guarantee Card would need to be presented.

That may be true but I suspect if someone appealed against the penalty fare because they couldn't obtain the correct ticket for the reasons given then I suspect they would win that appeal??

It does appear to me that the PF scheme hasn't been thought through properly?

 

[First class]

correct - appeal would be won.

reasoning:

(7 Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be charged)
3. An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare under rule 6.2 if any of the following circumstances applied at the station where the person joined the relevant train.
a. There were no facilities available to issue the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey which that person wanted to make.

7. Except when he or she is applying rule 6.7, an authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare if this would conflict with the 'rights given to the person by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage specify:


3. Where the full range of tickets is not available

If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because

the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start

your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel

that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is

reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these

circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had

bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will

be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

Therefore if Merseyrail charged a Penalty Fare who wanted ticket types that were unavailable then Merseyrail would be in breach of two governing policies and the passenger who receives a Penalty Fare would win at appeal.

 

[krus_aragon]

With regards to '3. Where the full range of tickets is not available', it talks of the range of tickets available, but not the range of payment options. In my neck of the woods (no PF) the guards take a dim view of youngsters boarding at unstaffed stations with only a Solo card which they (may) know isn't accepted by their ticket machine, and then proceed to take names and addresses, etc. Does this give any useful parallels?

 

[Tom C]

As Merseyrail said in their email response (above) passengers wanting to pay by certain methods/obtain certain tickets need to do so in advance at a staffed station. Anybody boarding a train without a ticket regardless of reason will be PFd. Whether that is a correct and legal response is questionable.

I will go one further than questionable.........its nonsense!

If a railway station hasn't got the full facilities to purchase the FULL range of tickets using any means accepted i.e cheques then the passenger has the right to purchase their tickets either on the train or at the end of their journey. Also if the equipment is faulty then you cannot expect people to walk to the next station simply because Merseyrail want to do a PF scheme on the cheap.

Are you saying that if someone going from Bache or Capenhurst with a PRIV or who wants to pay by cheque would STILL get PF'd AND Merseyrail would sight a reason like "you should have walked to the next stop"?

Question for all the ticket lovers here, surely the PERTIS issued from this bizarre machine carry the same weight as a traditional PERTIS i.e that it must be honoured and exchanged providing its done at the 1st opportunity, within 2 hours etc etc

With regards to '3. Where the full range of tickets is not available', it talks of the range of tickets available, but not the range of payment options. In my neck of the woods (no PF) the guards take a dim view of youngsters boarding at unstaffed stations with only a Solo card which they (may) know isn't accepted by their ticket machine, and then proceed to take names and addresses, etc. Does this give any useful parallels?

I can only speak for down here but travelling with a Electron or Solo card and having no other means to pay would be treated as no ticket, no means which is a MG11.

 

[First class]

I think everybody agrees that Merseyrail Customer Services has provided an appalling and unenforceable response.

Those with Electron/Solo cards will be Penalty Fared if they have enough physical money to buy a single to the next stop with. If they have no money then they would be PACEd.

I'm not sure there are actually National guidelines concerning methods of payment, even from ATOC. I think it is up to each TOC to produce their own cash regulations. The point, I suppose, is that you couldn't go into your average corner shop with a credit card expecting to buy a mars bar and a packet of crisps, as the method of payment is not accepted, you can't have the items, you certainly couldn't say I'll pay when you get credit card facilities.

I don't think they're doing it on the cheap- Merseyrail just don't have the right experience of such schemes. Revenue Protection Officers aren't even aware the Routing Guide exists, seriously, ask any of them. I've seen staff accept long-distance tickets that aren't valid because of a time restriction and I've pulled them on it, and their response was that the restriction (CG) doesn't apply on Merseyrail???! Another one said a Kirkby-Rainford Weekly season was valid via Liverpool because it said 'Any Permitted Route'!!!

All aspects of the business seem to focus on being 'independent' operator not a TOC. They seem to have this idea of being a 'metro' which it's not. That is causing it to stop focusing on the outside network. They got rid of the dispatchers, stopped guards doing tickets, RPIs still using 4407s instead of Avantix....

 

[tony_mac]

I'm not sure there are actually National guidelines concerning methods of payment, even from ATOC.

There may be stuff in the 'policy' documents
e.g. from
http://www.atoc.org/policy/Section%205%20Part%201.pdf

In addition to sterling cheques and cash, vouchers, national transport tokens and permits to travel must also be accepted as payment for certain rail products.

 

[glynn80]

I'm not sure there are actually National guidelines concerning methods of payment, even from ATOC. I think it is up to each TOC to produce their own cash regulations.

There are national guidelines, these are entrenched within the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement that all TOCs are signatories of. Any changes the TOCs wish to make to the approved methods of payment within the TSA, must be authorised by the DfT in the same way changes to the NRCoC would be. The last such change was the removal of American Express as a compulsory accepted method of payment.

The TSA lists these methods of payments in Chapter 7:

7-1 REQUIREMENT TO ACCEPT CERTAIN METHODS OF PAYMENT

(1) Generally applicable methods of payment

Each Operator must accept the following methods of payment for Rail Products:-

(a) cash denominated in pounds sterling;

(b) cheques denominated in pounds sterling which are drawn on a UK financial institution and supported by a cheque guarantee card for the amount payable;

(c) Warrants (in the circumstances set out in Clause 7-21 below);

(d) Vouchers (in the circumstances set out in Clause 7-35 below);

(e) Permits to Travel (in the circumstances set out in Clause 7-39 below); and

(f) National Transport Tokens (in the circumstances set out in Clause 7-41
below).


(2) Credit Cards

(a) In addition to the methods of payment referred to in sub-Clause (1) above, each Operator must accept as a method of payment for any Rail Product that is Sold at the Regulated Stations listed in Schedule 17, Credit Cards of the type indicated in that Schedule against the name of the relevant Station.

(b) Where, in respect of a Regulated Station, more than one Credit Card
Company issues Credit Cards of the type specified in Schedule 17 against the name of that Station, the particular Credit Cards of that type which are accepted at that Station are at the discretion of each Operator which Sells Rail Products there.


7-2 ABILITY TO ACCEPT OTHER METHODS OF PAYMENT

Subject to any other agreement that is binding on it, an Operator may (in addition to the methods of payment referred to in Clause 7-1 above) accept any other method of payment for Rail Products.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Two years ago, I travelled on a child ticket (valid, as I was 15) and I got PF'd (but won the appeal after photocopying my birth certificate)

The other week, my ticket showed yesterdays date, but was accepted! (I actually had it stamped for travel the next day on the back, but the RPI hadn't seen that

Having travelled on Merseyrail for a number of years, I've now opted to use Northern, LM and EMT instead, wherever possible, as I just don't agree with most of their new schemes (banning people from the network, using headcams and prosecuting people with feet on seats)

 

[First class]

it does state, however, that the need to accept all methods of payment only applies to staffed stations. (page 189). It makes no mention of TVMs at unstaffed stations.

This seems to be a very grey area. Do TOCs have the right to PF/Prosecute you for boarding at an unstaffed station where you do not have a method of payment the TVM can accept, but all staffed stations can?

 

[glynn80]

it does state, however, that the need to accept all methods of payment only applies to staffed stations. (page 189). It makes no mention of TVMs at unstaffed stations. This seems to be a very grey area. Do TOCs have the right to PF/Prosecute you for boarding at an unstaffed station where you do not have a method of payment the TVM can accept, but all staffed stations can?

I quoted directly from the TSA and nowhere within Chapter 7 does it state that the accepted methods of payment only applied to staffed stations. It states "Each Operator must accept the following methods of payment for Rail Products".

This is confirmed within the "Payment" tab within the FRPP, which lists all the acceptable methods of payment and the various conditions attached with using said method of payment.

N.B. Page 189 in the TSA edition I cited (the most up to date copy), does not relate to anything we have been discussing here, perhaps you can quote from the edition you have been reviewing?

 

[tony_mac]

I think that he's referring to the atoc policy document that I linked to.
I know that it says that its for staffed stations - I was just giving an example that some agreements obviously do exist - but your much more comperehensive reply made mine a bit pointless!

 

[glynn80]

I think that he's referring to the atoc policy document that I linked to.
I know that it says that its for staffed stations - I was just giving an example that some agreements obviously do exist - but your much more comperehensive reply made mine a bit pointless!

Oh I didn't actually see your reply, it was posted at the 21:56, exactly the same time my post was submitted.

The TSA is the legal document that all the TOCs are signatories of. It is well over 1000 pages long and yes is very comprehensive. Recent moves to review the document have hit serious hurdles according to a contact at the DfT and will most likely remain in its current form for the foreseeable future.

 

[RMTGuard]

I think if anyone has any problems with the new buy before you ride policy then you should contact merseyrail customer services and let them know.

 

[dixi]

]Whilst traveling from little sutton to ellesmere port the other day, the machine would not take my tatty £5 note . after reading on the machine that if i was unable to purchase a ticket from the automated ticket vender i should purchase one on the train or at the destination station.... Whilst on the journey i was asked for my ticket from a insepctor, to which i replied the machine would not take my note, the insepctor then made a phone check to see if the machine was showing any faults, and came back as there was no faults showing. This has happened to my self when the machines were about 6 weeks in service and the inspector allowed me to purchase a ticket on the train. The ticket cost £1.70 and I have no problem in paying this ammount as i had the money in my hand and offered to pay there and then. But no. I wAS GIVEN A PENALTY FARE. This is my first Penalty fare ever in the 15 years of using the train service nearly every day. I was told too appeal against this penalty and it should be overturned.. I do hope the aurthroities see reason with my appeal ..

 

[ChrisTheRef]

This has happened to me too.

Begs the question, if it was going to be overturned, why were you issued it in the first place?

 

[First class]

]Whilst traveling from little sutton to ellesmere port the other day, the machine would not take my tatty £5 note . after reading on the machine that if i was unable to purchase a ticket from the automated ticket vender i should purchase one on the train or at the destination station.... Whilst on the journey i was asked for my ticket from a insepctor, to which i replied the machine would not take my note, the insepctor then made a phone check to see if the machine was showing any faults, and came back as there was no faults showing. This has happened to my self when the machines were about 6 weeks in service and the inspector allowed me to purchase a ticket on the train. The ticket cost £1.70 and I have no problem in paying this ammount as i had the money in my hand and offered to pay there and then. But no. I wAS GIVEN A PENALTY FARE. This is my first Penalty fare ever in the 15 years of using the train service nearly every day. I was told too appeal against this penalty and it should be overturned.. I do hope the aurthroities see reason with my appeal ..

Not that I disbelieve you, (maybe you misread?) but afaik Merseyrail TVMs do NOT say:

after reading on the machine that if i was unable to purchase a ticket from the automated ticket vender i should purchase one on the train or at the destination station

The RPI has checked with the control room who have the following:
1) Live CCTV of the machine, with the ability to check you tried to use it.
2) A control panel showing the status of every TVM.

I can only assume that the control room has relayed information to the RPI that does not back up your claims. However, as the RPI has told you, you are welcome to appeal it, and if you have acted honestly, then no problem, no money owed.

If you showed the RPI the note, and it was in poor condition then they would have taken sympathy with you. To me, as rail staff, i'd rather stick to my instinct that it's more likely an attempt to avoid the fare has taken place. It's about discretion, and the RPI did not feel it was required in this instance. It strikes me as odd though that you had no other money/cards available other than this one tatty note. What did you use to pay for the minimum penalty fare payment?

Little Sutton/Overpool - Ellesmere Port has the worst reputation for fare evasion on the entire network. That's not to say you've anything to do with that.

 

[nedchester]

Interestingly about two weeks ago at Capenhurst I went to buy my usual ticket using a card. Machine took over a minute to read the card and in the end I cancelled it. Tried again same thing happened. Tried a third time but the machine was in 'hang' mode (?!!) Eventually the machine started working again and I found some cash for the journey. Meanwhile the sizeable queue that had build up behind me didn't have time to get the ticket and boarded without paying.

So:

1. Would Merseyrail have accepted my excuse that I couldn't use the card?
2. What would have happened if the happless passengers behind me had been 'gripped' when they got to Liverpool when it appeared the TVM wasn't working (if only for a little time??)?

 

[jon0844]

I'd have made sure I held on to the tatty note (and not spent it anywhere else, given that it was meant for the train fare) but I am not sure that anyone would have gone back and reviewed CCTV footage for such an incident. Even if you could accurately say what time it was that you were there, the CCTV operator now has to get a detailed description of @dixi - and then relay back info to the RPI for confirmation.

 

[First class]

I'd have made sure I held on to the tatty note (and not spent it anywhere else, given that it was meant for the train fare) but I am not sure that anyone would have gone back and reviewed CCTV footage for such an incident. Even if you could accurately say what time it was that you were there, the CCTV operator now has to get a detailed description of @dixi - and then relay back info to the RPI for confirmation.

Believe it or not, but there is a security contractor paid to sit and remotely watch the TVMs 24/7! That person is the point of contact for the RPIs for any queries about the machines, their status etc...

The software allegedly lets you pull video pretty much straight away.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interestingly about two weeks ago at Capenhurst I went to buy my usual ticket using a card. Machine took over a minute to read the card and in the end I cancelled it. Tried again same thing happened. Tried a third time but the machine was in 'hang' mode (?!!) Eventually the machine started working again and I found some cash for the journey. Meanwhile the sizeable queue that had build up behind me didn't have time to get the ticket and boarded without paying.

So:

1. Would Merseyrail have accepted my excuse that I couldn't use the card?
2. What would have happened if the happless passengers behind me had been 'gripped' when they got to Liverpool when it appeared the TVM wasn't working (if only for a little time??)?

1. Merseyrail would have rang the TVM remote operator to find out if there is a problem with the machine. If it comes back as all clear, and nothing has been detected in the fault logs, then Merseyrail has proved that they provided the means to pay. It may well be the card was defective or user error, in which case you are liable for a Penalty Fare as you did not have valid means to purchase a ticket- in fact that could even lead to prosecution if it was proved that you knew your card wouldn't work and you travelled, but anyway that's an aside. As far as Merseyrail is concerned, you're in the wrong because their systems and the log history shows no problems. It's hard for an RPI to accept your version of events if someone else says there are no problems, or other people managed to use their card. Although the machine may be faulty, it's really hard for an RPI to accept your version of events. With all Penalty Fares discretion is allowed, but does NOT have to be exercised. It is very circumstantial.

2. It is the responsibility of the passenger to allow sufficient time to arrive at the station to purchase a ticket. There is no official guidelines on waiting times, although the customer charter is usually a good benchmark time. In this case, 10minutes in the peak, 5 off peak. It would be for the inspector to use discretion to decide whether people arrived with enough time to buy a ticket and board a train. Again, this could be checked with CCTV. Someone who joins the queue with 2mins before the train is likely to be penalty fared, someone who has arrived 10mins beforehand (and attempted to buy a ticket) probably wouldn't be.

 

[jon0844]

If you can show a note that would not be accepted by a note validator, I am sure that's a valid reason NOT to get a PF.

If you're going to replace people who can verify legal tender with a machine that cannot, I would NOT accept the PF and suggest referring it to court. A judge or magistrate would use common sense, while the appeal could fail (and it would be hard to then send in the £5 in question as evidence).

Discretion is an interesting thing. Only this morning a little old lady was sold a ticket as she'd not had time to get a ticket from New Southgate, despite it being a requirement to have a valid ticket. I guess the RPI felt sorry for her.

Then on my train, two RPIs got on and worked the first class compartment. They did two people with PFs. One moved out of the compartment, the other stayed (so after paying, they must have allowed him to stay) but then one RPI left to carry on doing standard class, while the other opted to give two girls in their 20s the option to pay the difference between standard and first! What the hell? If I was the guy who got the PF, I'd have made a real fuss.

(And yes, I was being very nosy - I was standing in the vestibule looking in at everything that was happening!).

 

[tony_mac]

If you can show a note that would not be accepted by a note validator, I am sure that's a valid reason NOT to get a PF.

It does create a situation where some people will not bother buying a ticket and just carry a tatty note instead.

I think it's a major problem if you have penalty fares from unstaffed stations, there is no easy way to deal with it reasonably.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, it might. I guess if you kept hold of that tatty note it would only get tattier!

Of course, when you are given the chance to buy a ticket - the RPI should take that note. I doubt someone will continue to mess up fivers.

If they do, it only goes to prove that you should have manned ticket offices. Then it's nice and simple; you should have queued up and got the ticket from someone who could accept the note.

Now, what if the RPI is allowed to take details so they can keep a note of how many times any one person is using the same excuse?

And what if the credit card reader isn't working? If you could prove your account had sufficient funds, I would not accept a PF because it rejected my card. The rejection could be down to a lost connection to the bank, or an issue with the bank (remember when all debit cards for a bank stopped working for a whole day?).

Such circumstances might be rare, but they need to be dealt with professionally. I am not going to carry my debit card, a card from another bank, notes and coins (and maybe some rail vouchers) to cover all bases. There has to be some discretion, as there clearly seems to be if you're old or good looking. That's me out on both counts!

 

[CarterUSM]

Ha ha, most amusing. Unlucky mate! What people want to see is consistency, and unfortunately this is an unlikely aim, given some staffs various dispositions towards their commercial duties. The situation you describe though john is patently favouritism, and if I had been one of the penalty fared individuals, I would have been pretty miffed at this.