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The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway built the North Mersey Branch Line that connected Seaforth and Litherland to the Aintree area, wth two stations built at Ford and at Linacre Road. After passenger services were withdrawn it served freight services. What is the current condition of the trackbed there and could it be used as a useful part of any Merseyrail expansion?
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Next Friday will be the third death anniversary of my wife, who was always keen on visiting the Lady Lever Gallery at Port Sunlight. Quite a number of visits were made to it by us in my post-retirement period by taking the train from our local area to Liverpool Lime Street railway station, then making our way to the low-level part of that station on a train to Port Sunlight railway station, which is well placed for the visits to that area. Do those journeys count as being on Merseyrail?
Very sorry to read of your loss and of the poignancy it will add to your journeys.
The remains of the N Mersey branch were mentioned (for freight) by me in post 87 in the Drax discussion;
"I think that it "exists" between Bootle New Strand and Aintree stations (Budleia notwithstanding) with most track bed intact to the Kirkby line except for housing estate gardens where the route crosses the Ormskirk line obliquely.
West of the Southport line, the important part connecting to the Seaforth dock is really lost under a housing estate, thoughtfully planned with the houses over the trackbed, rather than the gardens. It might be simpler to extend the reversing siding at Sandhills to allow dock freight to change traction but Sandhills is now two roads not four and has to pass 24 Merseyrail trains per hour before any shunting movements. The sharp Kirkdale curve is well below the Northern line with buildings and Stanley Road above the tunnel. The trackbed through the Kirkdale tunnels to Walton Jn is quadruple, however."
Has there been any word on the proposed Vauxhall station? Extending to far-off places like Wrexham is a good long-term goal but Merseyrail is of little use for most of inner city Liverpool. Baltic station is addressing this but has taken far too long to become a serious proposal.
Lots of potential for infill stations wherever there is a long gap between stations. But it opens the whole can of worms about what Merseyrail is, a commuter rail system for the suburbs or an urban 'metro'.
It seems to have gone very quiet over the proposed Vauxhall Station. But there is a lot of development proposed for the Pumpfields / Love Lane / Pall Mall area. Maybe a subtle name change to "Liverpool Waters"/"Pall Mall"/"Chadwick Street"/"Great Howard Street"/"Whatever" may pull in some more interest from developers.
It should be pointed out that the new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore is likely to cause all sorts of havoc transport-wise, so maybe giving the locals an escape route would be a good thing. It's opening August next year.
I'd ask my nephew for more details but he's a Reds supporter....
Has there been any word on the proposed Vauxhall station? Extending to far-off places like Wrexham is a good long-term goal but Merseyrail is of little use for most of inner city Liverpool. Baltic station is addressing this but has taken far too long to become a serious proposal.
Lots of potential for infill stations wherever there is a long gap between stations. But it opens the whole can of worms about what Merseyrail is, a commuter rail system for the suburbs or an urban 'metro'.
The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway built the North Mersey Branch Line that connected Seaforth and Litherland to the Aintree area, wth two stations built at Ford and at Linacre Road. After passenger services were withdrawn it served freight services. What is the current condition of the trackbed there and could it be used as a useful part of any Merseyrail expansion?
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The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway built the North Mersey Branch Line that connected Seaforth and Litherland to the Aintree area, wth two stations built at Ford and at Linacre Road. After passenger services were withdrawn it served freight services. What is the current condition of the trackbed there and could it be used as a useful part of any Merseyrail expansion?
What is the line condition like from the Rainford area on the former St Helens and Runcorn Gap Railway and would it be worthwhile opening the closed railway stations by Merseyrail as far as St Helens?
What is the line condition like from the Rainford area on the former St Helens and Runcorn Gap Railway and would it be worthwhile opening the closed railway stations by Merseyrail as far as St Helens?
At least through Rainford itself the trackbed is now a well-used linear park. I can't see how that would be compatible with even a single track railway. Anyway Rainford is only a small place, though expanding: most of this development should be around 'the Junction' which would encourage a better rail service.
At least through Rainford itself the trackbed is now a well-used linear park. I can't see how that would be compatible with even a single track railway. Anyway Rainford is only a small place, though expanding: most of this development should be around 'the Junction' which would encourage a better rail service.
I think an Ormskirk sized development around the Junction as an eco-town would make sense alongside a Merseyrail extension. That would give you an overall town roughly the size and shape of Aughton and Ormskirk, and would make residents of Rainford "proper" more likely to use the railway by giving them more populated walking and cycling routes to it. (There is presently the path along the old railway, but with this being dark and isolated at night many people wouldn't consider it as an option).
(The Junction, by the way, isn't some sort of rural idyll like around Cheddington - it's a 1970s Barratt estate, and thus I suspect objections to this would be much lower in number and vociferousness than if it was!)
I know the Canada Dock Branch is an important freight route, all I said is I would like to see it and the North Mersey Branch re-opened to passengers. The prospects of one or both happening are miniscule to zero, but that doesn't change my opinion that they'd both be sensible and useful extensions to the Merseyrail network in the right circumstances.
I appreciate the above posting was made nearly a year ago if the Canada Dock Branch is the LNWR one that branched off in the Edge Hill area, with its first passenger station at Edge Lane, it was a railway line that served an intermediate area between areas with rail connections. Would any of these intermediate areas, such as Tuebrook, benefit from a passenger train service?
What's this supposed to mean? I've probably walked it more times than you and I've seen the double-tunnels and double-bridges. Do you not believe me or do you just not like the idea?
You would be saying the same about the Southport line if it were being suggested, yet loads of people still use it. Don't be silly.
Also, in what way is central Warrington not an "area of significant population"?? Never mind the connections that Bank Quay provides.
It makes a lot of sense, but it does require some more significant rebuilding, so I'd put it down as priority no. 5 on the top ten list of Merseyrail extensions.
What rebuilding? The stations? If so, then fair enough, but it's better than starting from scratch with no tracks, platforms or electrification. This option seems like the best value for money (not cheapest, but best results per money spent)
Rebuild both the northern and southern Burscough Curves for this plan - the southern curve is for Merseyrail and ends in the new bay provided on the south side of the station. The northern curve will enable direct Preston to Southport service operated by Northern, stopping at Burscough Bridge as an interchange for Ormskirk and Liverpool, but also restoring the well-used direct link between Preston and Southport on the railway (currently only catered for by the 2/X2 bus service, which is usually very busy, but susceptible to the heavy traffic on the A59/A565).
I agree. I would also say to re-open Midge Hall station (with two platforms to allow waiting for the northwards single line to clear). It would easily serve more people than Croston station!
I've always figured that turning it into a heritage line with infrastructure under ownership of Merseyrail seems wise. Its use for diesel services for the raceday to Aintree is obvious, but in the rest of the year it could be used for B-EMU driver training between Aintree and Bootle Oriel Road (or beyond, onto the Bootle branch line?) and the rest of the time track access being given to a (potentially independent) heritage association with an engine shed - cum - museum on the site of the old Aintree sidings. It solves the nationwide problem of not having enough space for heritage locos, it creates a potentially revenue-generating service via heritage services and museum donations, and it allows additional access to the racedays like the good old days! Who really loses out here? To add to all of that, it prevents the track falling to the rarely-survivable stage of track lifting, or even housing being introduced...!
What rebuilding? The stations? If so, then fair enough, but it's better than starting from scratch with no tracks, platforms or electrification. This option seems like the best value for money (not cheapest, but best results per money spent)
It depends - Wrexham has the best chance of bringing a lot of fare revenue in (just because of the distance and the viability of a Liverpool/Wirral commute for hundreds of thousands of people), and relieving a lot of deprivation.
The East Liverpool extension would bring in a decent amount of revenue and definitely should be built for connectivity reasons, but it doesn't penetrate closely enough into areas like Netherley/Stockbridge Village/Croxteth to target the most deprived areas that side of Liverpool and you'll need 10 miles of new track and stations to complete it. That's why I had it as priority 5 on the list.
I agree. I would also say to re-open Midge Hall station (with two platforms to allow waiting for the northwards single line to clear). It would easily serve more people than Croston station!
If the large housing development next door is built soon, then certainly. Journey times on the 111 bus into Preston are lengthly, and the roads in the area (particularly the A582 Penwortham Way, which has recently had a long-planned improvement cancelled and will likely form part of a Preston ring road in future) suffer badly from congestion. However the existing residential area of Moss Side is a little far from the old station to deliver reasonable passenger numbers, so we'll have to wait for the new development.
What is the line condition like from the Rainford area on the former St Helens and Runcorn Gap Railway and would it be worthwhile opening the closed railway stations by Merseyrail as far as St Helens?
A road exists on the former trackbed between close to Gerards Bridge and Moss Bank. Thence to the edge of Rainford has mostly reverted to farmland.
Of the former station sites, only Rainford Village, and possibly Rookery are really close to populated areas. Moss Bank site is not too far from populated areas, but slightly less convenient than the proposed site for a Carr Mill station on the St. Helens / Wigan line.
A road exists on the former trackbed between close to Gerards Bridge and Moss Bank. Thence to the edge of Rainford has mostly reverted to farmland.
Of the former station sites, only Rainford Village, and possibly Rookery are really close to populated areas. Moss Bank site is not too far from populated areas, but slightly less convenient than the proposed site for a Carr Mill station on the St. Helens / Wigan line.
And there isn't much travel in general from St. Helens to Skem that can be converted to railway. Skem looks mostly to Liverpool, St. Helens mostly looks towards Liverpool and Wigan. So the existing railway users that want to head from St Helens into Skem (or further up the A570, Southport) will head via Wigan if taking the train, and the small volumes that would be open to travelling by train towards Skem/Ormskirk/Southport as new passengers would probably just about justify an improved bus service (hard to justify as it is, as the existing bus service is already subsidised by the relevant local authorities).
The East Liverpool extension would bring in a decent amount of revenue and definitely should be built for connectivity reasons, but it doesn't penetrate closely enough into areas like Netherley/Stockbridge Village/Croxteth to target the most deprived areas that side of Liverpool and you'll need 10 miles of new track and stations to complete it. That's why I had it as priority 5 on the list.
I agree about the east being deprived, which is why I figured the Wavertree, Sefton Park and Speke re-opening would help that somewhat. Using the extension line to form a loop line between Hunts Cross and Rice Lane would serve the "inner" suburbs of the east very well, too!
To get as far out as Stockbridge, the only thing I can see working without destroying lots of homes is to run parallel with / replace the M57 in an "outer ring" configuration, and considering the power that billionaire car lobbies have in our society, I don't see competing with or destroying motorways happening any time soon, unfortunately... (meanwhile how many railways were torn up to enforce car ownership?)
I'm open for any ideas on how to serve the "far" east of Liverpool that are any better, because I'm not hugely convinced by "tram/train/etc paralleling motorways" projects.
The East Liverpool extension would bring in a decent amount of revenue and definitely should be built for connectivity reasons, but it doesn't penetrate closely enough into areas like Netherley/Stockbridge Village/Croxteth to target the most deprived areas that side of Liverpool and you'll need 10 miles of new track and stations to complete it. That's why I had it as priority 5 on the list.
For the Fiddler's Ferry line? Where? All of the track is intact and in use!
The only track I would add / rebuild is 100 ish metres near the Bank Quay end of the line (for straight platforms, accessibility n stuff) and an approx 4km (optional?) single-track just south of the line (to make it 5 lines wide) between Halewood and Garston Docks sidings to facilitate freight movements along that corridor.
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If the large housing development next door is built soon, then certainly. Journey times on the 111 bus into Preston are lengthly, and the roads in the area (particularly the A582 Penwortham Way, which has recently had a long-planned improvement cancelled and will likely form part of a Preston ring road in future) suffer badly from congestion. However the existing residential area of Moss Side is a little far from the old station to deliver reasonable passenger numbers, so we'll have to wait for the new development.
Doesn't the service(s) along that line have to stop there to exchange tokens anyway? What's the real difference in putting platforms there to exchange passengers at the same time? Frankly, the gap in service there is astonishing, and there should be a service there or at Cocker Bar to serve the housing and industry nearby. Worst case scenario, there's a shuttle / circular bus. There have been stations further from towns but tried to serve them anyway, so this is hardly pushing beyond reason.
To get as far out as Stockbridge, the only thing I can see working without destroying lots of homes is to run parallel with / replace the M57 in an "outer ring" configuration.
Has there ever been any official council views made that have cited the manner of the M57 motorway in terms of its strategic road transportation for the HGV movements that take advantage of it, freeing them from using the normal road systems?
I agree about the east being deprived, which is why I figured the Wavertree, Sefton Park and Speke re-opening would help that somewhat. Using the extension line to form a loop line between Hunts Cross and Rice Lane would serve the "inner" suburbs of the east very well, too!
To get as far out as Stockbridge, the only thing I can see working without destroying lots of homes is to run parallel with / replace the M57 in an "outer ring" configuration, and considering the power that billionaire car lobbies have in our society, I don't see competing with or destroying motorways happening any time soon, unfortunately... (meanwhile how many railways were torn up to enforce car ownership?)
I'm open for any ideas on how to serve the "far" east of Liverpool that are any better, because I'm not hugely convinced by "tram/train/etc paralleling motorways" projects.
Doesn't the service(s) along that line have to stop there to exchange tokens anyway? What's the real difference in putting platforms there to exchange passengers at the same time? Frankly, the gap in service there is astonishing, and there should be a service there or at Cocker Bar to serve the housing and industry nearby. Worst case scenario, there's a shuttle / circular bus. There have been stations further from towns but tried to serve them anyway, so this is hardly pushing beyond reason.
Maybe Lancs will choose to fund it in the new unitarisation/City Deal process, but unfortunately, with current service levels and poor connectivity on the Ormskirk branch, I can't see it being a funding priority otherwise.
Liverpool City Council has proposed transforming the area north of the city with a huge new development.
www.bbc.co.uk
An entirely new town-sized settlement could be created north of Liverpool with 10,000 new homes under council plans.
Liverpool City Council has proposed the idea to the government to transform brownfield sites north of the city towards Bootle, on the fringes of the city into Sefton.
The new development would be known as Liverpool North and would span three miles (5km) across Everton, Anfield and Kirkdale and into Bootle.
The proposal would encompass key locations along the route including Everton's new £500m stadium at Bramley Moore Dock and the £20m Bootle New Strand development project.
Well, if this new housing helps the business case for the rebuilding of Liverpool Central, than that is a huge benefit. It could also support an infill station between Sandhills and Moorfields.
Can anyone find a map of exactly where this new town is? All the google results I get are just versions of what I assume was a press release, but despite it allegedly being an official application for new town status I can't see anything official.
Can anyone find a map of exactly where this new town is? All the google results I get are just versions of what I assume was a press release, but despite it allegedly being an official application for new town status I can't see anything official.
It does seem to me that this 'new town' plan may well be repackaging Liverpool and Sefton's regeneration projects in north Liverpool/south Sefton in a way that matches central government's current funding offer. So there may not be much new to see.
But I agree that five minutes poking around cabinet agendas for Sefton doesn't bring up a report of what's planned. Maybe that's because it's not there: or maybe it's because I am looking in the wrong place.
'New town' seems a strange way to describe repopulating an existing urban area. It usually means a completely new settlement on a green field site. It's what should have happened years ago of course, instead of dispersing the population out to Kirkby, Skem etc.
The piece isn't very clear where exactly this would be located, but it seems it would be well catered for by the existing Northern line. A new lease of life for Bank Hall station perhaps, as well as maybe some new ones. There is plenty of scope to expand the line's capacity and increase frequency.
'New town' seems a strange way to describe repopulating an existing urban area. It usually means a completely new settlement on a green field site. It's what should have happened years ago of course, instead of dispersing the population out to Kirkby, Skem etc.
Takes me back to my folk singing days in the 1960s/1970s. Here's a one-verse sample with a remembrance from those long-gone days.... "A feller from the Corpy, just out of planning school,
Has told us that we've got to move right out of Liverpool,
They're moving us to Kirkby, to Skelmersdale and Speke
But we want to stay where we used to play in Back Buchanan Street."
Chorus
"Don't want to go to Kirkby, don't want to go to Speke,
Don't want to go from all I know in Back Buchanan Street"
There are two more following verses. but they will take too much space. I remember the prefabs near Ford Cemetery and a family who moved to Hatton Hill Road, in Litherland. A Mancunian I might be but our family had a lot of relatives in Liverpool and I made a lot of visits there before I was a teenager. Always went to see the Spinners when they appeared at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester.
I remember a mate's arl fella introducing me to that, I think!
It's a shame we don't have folk music nowadays, or much folk culture left to speak of...
Takes me back to my folk singing days in the 1960s/1970s. Here's a one-verse sample with a remembrance from those long-gone days.... "A feller from the Corpy, just out of planning school,
Has told us that we've got to move right out of Liverpool,
They're moving us to Kirkby, to Skelmersdale and Speke
But we want to stay where we used to play in Back Buchanan Street."
Chorus
"Don't want to go to Kirkby, don't want to go to Speke,
Don't want to go from all I know in Back Buchanan Street"
There are two more following verses. but they will take too much space. I remember the prefabs near Ford Cemetery and a family who moved to Hatton Hill Road, in Litherland. A Mancunian I might be but our family had a lot of relatives in Liverpool and I made a lot of visits there before I was a teenager. Always went to see the Spinners when they appeared at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester.
Did The Spinners put spin on things? Speke New Town, New Skem New Town, New New Brighton New Town, ... Those were the days, my friend ... grieving the leaving of Liverpool?
This was posted on the 777 thread by my near-namesake Urban recently. Rather than provoke a long, off-topic debate I thought I'd better comment here.
<<The Hunts Cross line unfortunately isn't well placed for the majority of South Liverpool. Unless you live right by the river. a bus is nearly always more convenient.>>
It's pretty well used, nevertheless. But I agree. Running parallel, and slightly to the north, is of course the main line from Crewe (and points south) to Lime Street. From South Parkway to just short of Edge Hill it is four-tracked, and I don't believe the slow lines are heavily used. How feasible would it b be for Merseyrail to take over the service and run at least 4tph? Ideally, with money and time available, it should be diverted via the Wapping tunnel and join up with the rest of the network.
Meanwhile it could continue to Lime Street as hitherto. Would there be the platform capacity to cope with such a service? Are there enough approach tracks through the tunnels/cuttings from Edge Hill?
If it could be done, it would transform public transport along the whole of that well-populated (and fairly affluent) part of the city. A station at Smithdown Road would be a very valuable addition, and the other stations would see a considerable increase in patronage.
(I know the Edge Hill/ Wapping tunnel idea has been discussed on here a great deal. But I'm not sure if any consideration has been given to this compromise suggestion.)
Because of the lay of the land, the WCML slows would be the easiest way to get trains to the airport. So 4tph all stations to the airport via an additional station at Speke joined to the Ormskirks (using OHLE equipped 777s) would be a powerful proposition.
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