Merseyrail Expansion

[Djgr]

Can I remind people that this speculative extension is neither in Liverpool City Region nor Greater Manchester. I am surprised that this discussion does not mention Lancashire much, because if they don't push for this there is no chance of this getting to the top of the to do list for LCR or Manchester.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Can I remind people that this speculative extension is neither in Liverpool City Region nor Greater Manchester. I am surprised that this discussion does not mention Lancashire much, because if they don't push for this there is no chance of this getting to the top of the to do list for LCR or Manchester.

While West Lancs have pushed for this heavily (the station of Upholland is the only current Kirkby Line station in Lancs CC/West Lancs CC at all), and the stations of Rainford (Metropolitan Borough of St Helens), Orrell, Pemberton & Wigan Wallgate (Metropolitan Borough of Wigan) are all in either GM or the LCR.

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Platform 3 is no shorter, an area previously of grass and plants has been removed, the only thing lost is potential expansion.

I could imagine that a train could use the existing platform towards Southport to arrive and turn around in, especially in the gap between xx:12 and xx:40 (although the freight trains may not help with that), you could definitely fit an 8 car 777 in there

And the initial service will probably be with a single 4 car 777 initially.

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Given the nature of Skelmersdale (and the cleaner 4tph service that would result rather than a split 2 and 2) I think my inclination is that the "Skelmersdale Parkway" option is preferable, i.e. expanding Upholland on a site on the Pimbo side coupled with improved local bus services. The Glenburn site offers few benefits over doing that and has downsides such as cost. It isn't central enough to really be a central station, so most people would reach it by car/taxi. Coupled with that should be ecotown style housing development around Rainford (roughly double it in size) and Upholland (to the south centred on the station).

The only sizeable benefit of a branch to a station in the middle of Skelmersdale would be the possibility of extension towards Ormskirk in future and a loop Liverpool - Ormskirk - Skem - Kirkby - Liverpool, but that would require some significant tunneling out of Skelmersdale and isn't even a serious proposal yet.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I remind people that this speculative extension is neither in Liverpool City Region nor Greater Manchester. I am surprised that this discussion does not mention Lancashire much, because if they don't push for this there is no chance of this getting to the top of the to do list for LCR or Manchester.

Can I remind anyone that the original posting on this thread gave no less the nine possible options, not the single one referred to above.

 

[frodshamfella]

@Xenophon PCDGS is quite right to highlight that the putative Merseyrail extension to Wigan Wallgate would largely be running within Greater Manchester, so the attitude/views of the Greater Manchester mayor (currently Andy Burnham) and TfGM would be crucial in agreeing whether or not it could be implemented. Given their approach to cross-boundary bus services, I suspect that they would not be comfortable with a local rail service into Greater Manchester being under the control of another major metropolitan area. Their approach has already led to a severing of the direct bus service (currently numbered X5) run by Warrington Transport at Lymm when tranche 3 of the TfGM bus franchising scheme goes live in January 2025.

This to me seems a really ridiculous attitude to have, almost like this is my castle and I'm pulling up the drawbridge, how does that help anyone. We are talking about 2 stations after Wigan I think, that's all.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This to me seems a really ridiculous attitude to have, almost like this is my castle and I'm pulling up the drawbridge, how does that help anyone. We are talking about 2 stations after Wigan I think, that's all.

In the council tax payable applicable to the Wigan parts of Greater Manchester, covering the areas of Pemberton and Orrell, is there an inclusion for anything to do with public transport?

To use a Biblical situation where Jesus was spoken to by the rabbinical members of the synagogue who were asking to whom the tax monies should be paid, Jesus answered "Whose head is shown on the coinage?". Therefore my response in this situation would be "Render unto Merseyrail the things that are Merseyrail's, render unto Greater Manchester the things that are Greater Manchester's".

As has been said a number of times, this thread is specific to speculative ideas, but that should cover all differing views, not just those of a Scouse choir all singing from the same proverbial Merseyrail hymn sheet.

I act in the capacity of " Devil's Advocate" to this thread.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think a three platform station (2 through, one bay) is going to be able to cope perfectly well with 6tphpd, there are plenty such stations that have more than that such as Sandhills which has 12tphpd at two platforms.

Sandhills doesn't have any terminating services reversing in normal operations though. This proposed service pattern at Wallgate is far more complicated.

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This to me seems a really ridiculous attitude to have, almost like this is my castle and I'm pulling up the drawbridge, how does that help anyone. We are talking about 2 stations after Wigan I think, that's all.

There was a post on another thread recently suggesting we should return to the old situation of the 1980s and 1990s, when the PTEs (as they were then) had far more sway over operations of local services... and which led to absurdities such as trains turning back at places like Marsden.

 

[Djgr]

Sandhills doesn't have any terminating services reversing in normal operations though. This proposed service pattern at Wallgate is far more complicated.

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There was a post on another thread recently suggesting we should return to the old situation of the 1980s and 1990s, when the PTEs (as they were then) had far more sway over operations of local services... and which led to absurdities such as trains turning back at places like Marsden.

and Garswood!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There was a post on another thread recently suggesting we should return to the old situation of the 1980s and 1990s, when the PTEs (as they were then) had far more sway over operations of local services... and which led to absurdities such as trains turning back at places like Marsden.

In Greater Manchester, Mayor Andy Burnham wants to regain local authority control over certain rail services as part of his bus/tram/train "Bee Network" and give those particular services the master Yellow livery.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In Greater Manchester, Mayor Andy Burnham wants to regain local authority control over certain rail services as part of his bus/tram/train "Bee Network" and give those particular services the master Yellow livery.

Which in my opinion is utter madness and gives no consideration to the bigger picture, it's essentially an undemocratic power-grab. Makes me very glad I no longer have to rely solely on public transport. It'll all end in tears, I tell thee!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which in my opinion is utter madness and gives no consideration to the bigger picture, it's essentially an undemocratic power-grab. Makes me very glad I no longer have to rely solely on public transport. It'll all end in tears, I tell thee!

It does seem odd that he's applying stricter rules to cross-border service permits than London does. I suspect out of pragmatism that will slack off over time, particularly if Bee Network loses interest in some of the longer cross border services like the Wigan-Southport.

I don't however think that would be applied to heavy rail because that by its nature crosses boundaries. The thing he'd be more interested in in terms of Wigan is probably Metrolink on the Atherton line, and not having to bother about Kirkby-Wigan would help, not hinder, him in achieving that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It does seem odd that he's applying stricter rules to cross-border service permits than London does. I suspect out of pragmatism that will slack off over time, particularly if Bee Network loses interest in some of the longer cross border services like the Wigan-Southport.

I don't however think that would be applied to heavy rail because that by its nature crosses boundaries. The thing he'd be more interested in in terms of Wigan is probably Metrolink on the Atherton line, and not having to bother about Kirkby-Wigan would help, not hinder, him in achieving that.

We can but hope... but there are examples in the past of artificial railway boundaries being imposed by parochial funding arrangements: see my aforementioned example of Marsden turnbacks, or the old Manchester Oxford Road to Irlam services.

 

[frodshamfella]

Yes, it comes under St Helens (and thus Liverpool City Region).

Housing looks to be a mix of traditional terraces/cottages, 1930s/40s semis and detached, 1970s Barratt type housing (almost certainly all owned) and 1960s type housing that looks like at one point it was Council housing though I doubt most of it remains as such. A very similar mix of housing to much of Bletchley!

Rainford is certainly an area that would benefit greatly to receive a usable rail service.

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I agree with that statement as GMPTE have not as such been in existence for a considerable period of time.....

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Who was it who officially put the nail into that particular Skelmersdale coffin? What did Merseyrail do in the run up to that decision being taken?

The government I believe.

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Sandhills doesn't have any terminating services reversing in normal operations though. This proposed service pattern at Wallgate is far more complicated.

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There was a post on another thread recently suggesting we should return to the old situation of the 1980s and 1990s, when the PTEs (as they were then) had far more sway over operations of local services... and which led to absurdities such as trains turning back at places like Marsden.

Yes quite, it's ridiculous, people don't want to have to change at daft stations just because it's an administrative border, that politics and not how people live their lives. We don't kick people.off buses when they cross a border do we , such a dated and procural idea some are advocating.

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Well Merseyrail has always been Yellow, so that should blend in very easily.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Which in my opinion is utter madness and gives no consideration to the bigger picture, it's essentially an undemocratic power-grab. Makes me very glad I no longer have to rely solely on public transport. It'll all end in tears, I tell thee!

I would suggest that you take time to look at the Skyscraper City Manchester website and look at the various threads in the Transport section. On that website section, Mayor Andy Burnham is viewed akin to the Man of the Second Coming on there and his plans are treated as sacrosanct. He was elected as Mayor of Greater Manchester with an overwhelming majority, so I don't think the term undemocratic can be applied to him. He seems to have a good working relationship with Liverpool's Metro Mayor, so I imagine that his views on public transport are well known in the Liverpool political arena. It was he who instigated the bus franching system in Greater Manchester of which the third and final tranche will come into effect in 2025. I understand that Liverpool have such bus franchising as a matter of future policy.

 

[frodshamfella]

From what I've there are a lot of discussions and plans for the Merseyrail network to be expanded, indeed this was the reason for the class 777s an operation by battery. Continuing from.Headbold Lane east, plus other expansions, seems the best solution to give a decent service for those who have for.many years had a very.poor one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From what I've there are a lot of discussions and plans for the Merseyrail network to be expanded, indeed this was the reason for the class 777s an operation by battery. Continuing from.Headbold Lane east, plus other expansions, seems the best solution to give a decent service for those who have for.many years had a very. Poor one.

Since the line was closed, have there been much in the way of area redevelopment of the former North Liverpool Extension Line, an area totally within the Liverpool boundaries.

 

[frodshamfella]

Since the line was closed, have there been much in the way of area redevelopment of the former North Liverpool Extension Line, an area totally within the Liverpool boundaries.

What line closed ? I don't know where you mean ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What line closed ? I don't know where you mean ?

The North Liverpool Extension Line was built by the Cheshire Lines Committee and opened in 1879. Passenger services were withdrawn 52 years ago in 1972. That is the closure that I made reference to.

Stations
Gateacre
Childwall
Knotty Ash and Stanley
West Derby
Clubnoor
Warbreck
Aintree Central

 

[Djgr]

The North Liverpool Extension Line was built by the Cheshire Lines Committee and opened in 1879. Passenger services were withdrawn 52 years ago in 1972. That is the closure that I made reference to.

Stations
Gateacre
Childwall
Knotty Ash and Stanley
West Derby
Clubnoor
Warbreck
Aintree Central

You mean on the route of a transpennine footpath?!

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Rainford is certainly an area that would benefit greatly to receive a usable rail service.

Of course there is Rainford and then there is Rainford Junction and from I recall they are on opposite sides of the I talk Scouse/Lancs boundary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean on the route of a transpennine footpath?!

The line is now a footpath.

Of course there is Rainford and then there is Rainford Junction and from I recall they are on opposite sides of the I talk Scouse/Lancs boundary.

No, both are in the LCR.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The line is now a footpath.

Isn't the Merseyrail extension proposed on this thread far more important to the residents of the areas than a footpath?

 

[Djgr]

Isn't the Merseyrail extension proposed on this thread far more important to the residents of the areas than a footpath?

Realistically no chance of pushing forward with this politically

 

[CaramellDansen]

I missed this the first time around, but...

Is there any real need for Merseyrail expansion?

YES. One hundred times yes.
Merseyrail is only good for people living in the north of Liverpool or along the river. (I won't speak for the Wirral since I don't live there.) Anywhere else, it's useless. The suburbs are incredibly disconnected not only from Town, but from themselves. Its intercity service is good for Southport northward (north bias again) but for some reason Wigan eastward and Warrington southward (kind of) are excluded despite being similar distances.

Electrifying the Lime Street to Bank Quay (lower) route via Fiddler's Ferry is perhaps the most obvious addition to Merseyrail and it's shocking people talk about it like it's pie-in-the-sky stuff. The line via Speke and Sefton Park are sorely missing services, and the tracks and half of the OLE are already in place!! The Loop Line via Gateacre is the second most obvious, since a "main line" loop connecting most of the city and bringing services to the currently car-dependant suburbs is a HUGE deal. Statistics of rail usage per borough (?) show this without a shadow of a doubt. Source: LCR's 2023 Long Term Rail Strategy.

Look how much blue there is in the eastern suburbs!

This question itself astounds me. I'm genuinely gobsmacked knowing how little Merseyrail has kept up with our transport needs, while this question still keeps being asked. Of course it needs expanding!!!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

opposite sides of the I talk Scouse/Lancs boundary.

Perhaps worth noting that this isn't an immoveable line: I know of a father and son, both born and brought up in the same house in Huyton: Father (in his 70s) has a Lancashire accent while son (about to trun 40) has a scouse one. Similarly there are these days plenty of people with scouse accents in Southport while my father (in his 90s but a native of Churchtown) has a Lancashire accent.

 

[Djgr]

The line is now a footpath.



No, both are in the LCR.

The tangential point I was making was that not all people in LCR speak "Scouse". The upper boundary on the Southport line is Freshfield and then it turns Lancs. From what I am told people in Rainford Junction and Rainford do not sound the same. This might not be true!

The more relevant point is that Rainford (Junction) station is 1.5 miles away from Rainford

 

[CaramellDansen]

Realistically no chance of pushing forward with this politically

We. Can. Have. Both.

The line was built to future-proof a track quadrupling. This means every tunnel and bridge has two spans/portals. Bike path goes under/through one, and the railway goes through the other. It's that simple.

 

[Djgr]

I missed this the first time around, but...

YES. One hundred times yes.
Merseyrail is only good for people living in the north of Liverpool or along the river. (I won't speak for the Wirral since I don't live there.) Anywhere else, it's useless. The suburbs are incredibly disconnected not only from Town, but from themselves. Its intercity service is good for Southport northward (north bias again) but for some reason Wigan eastward and Warrington southward (kind of) are excluded despite being similar distances.

Electrifying the Lime Street to Bank Quay (lower) route via Fiddler's Ferry is perhaps the most obvious addition to Merseyrail and it's shocking people talk about it like it's pie-in-the-sky stuff. The line via Speke and Sefton Park are sorely missing services, and the tracks and half of the OLE are already in place!! The Loop Line via Gateacre is the second most obvious, since a "main line" loop connecting most of the city and bringing services to the currently car-dependant suburbs is a HUGE deal. Statistics of rail usage per borough (?) show this without a shadow of a doubt. Source: LCR's 2023 Long Term Rail Strategy.
View attachment 168276
Look how much blue there is in the eastern suburbs!

This question itself astounds me. I'm genuinely gobsmacked knowing how little Merseyrail has kept up with our transport needs, while this question still keeps being asked. Of course it needs expanding!!!

A really useful map. Of course this map doesn't directly pick up population density, although presumably all these "boxes" have approximately the same population? The other relevant line is that separating Liverpool City Region from its hinterland because this is where partnership becomes required. It would also be nice to include the boundary between the two countries on the map.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electrifying the Lime Street to Bank Quay (lower) route via Fiddler's Ferry is perhaps the most obvious addition to Merseyrail and it's shocking people talk about it like it's pie-in-the-sky stuff.

Fiddlers Ferry makes next to no sense as a Merseyrail line as it doesn't serve any areas of significant population. Where Fiddlers Ferry would come in is as part of Northern Powerhouse Rail, taking the fast services away from both the CLC and Chat Moss lines, and allowing those lines to receive a 4tph local service like the rest of Merseyrail does, which they very much need and deserve.

 

[Djgr]

We. Can. Have. Both.

The line was built to future-proof a track quadrupling. This means every tunnel and bridge has two spans/portals. Bike path goes under/through one, and the railway goes through the other. It's that simple.

Certainly didn't feel that simple when I was walking it!

 

[daodao]

Extending the Merseyrail service that currently terminates at Hunt's Cross at least as far as Gateacre (with an intermediate halt) seems a relatively straightforward scheme that is wholly within the Liverpool City Region (so no cross-boundary issues). This re-opening was originally envisaged in the 1970s but somehow was shelved and subsequently overlooked. The line wouldn't need electrification now that battery class 777 emus are available.

 

[frodshamfella]

You mean on the route of a transpennine footpath?!

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Of course there is Rainford and then there is Rainford Junction and from I recall they are on opposite sides of the I talk Scouse/Lancs boundary.

I thought Rainford Junction was the old name for the station, although I'm sure there is still signage stating the old name on the Rainford Bypass.