Merseyrail - Also having reliability problems recently

[Birkonian]

Avanti is not the only basket case on the network at the moment. Cancellations galore.

My local station is Spital and last week 37 services failed to stop at this and other stations in this section due to late running. This happened on rare occasions in the past, but now any train that is 5+ minutes late runs 'semi fast' as they like to call it. There were also 24 cancellations in the week. This is a dreadful situation for rail users in the Bebington/Bromborough area. We have appointments and mainline connections to make just like those who use the stations deemed more important. Merseyrail have also announced that Chester trains will no longer stop at Green Lane or Bromborough Rake. Passengers have been advised to board Ellesmere Port trains and change at Hooton or use an 'adjacent' station. Adjacant in Merseytravel speak can mean up to 1½ miles away and not necessarily with wheelchair access.

I also noticed that on the Kirkby line earlier this week that trains were cancelled due to 'Overhanging foliage obscuring signals'. If only there was a simple way to rectify the problem.

 

[MR-507508]

The Chester line suffers badly with the current version of the timetable, which only gives a 4 minute turnaround time at Chester, therefore any delay just adds up more and delays the next service out of Chester and trains on other lines when they encounter them and meet at the wrong time.
The quickest way to get the train back on time is to run it non-stop between Birkenhead Central and Hooton (or vice versa). Often an Ellesmere Port line train follows shortly behind which calls at all stations.
The way to increase the turnaround time at Chester is to add another unit to the Chester circuit (as has been the case the past few autumn/winter timetables on this line), however I believe unit availability and staffing are not there at the moment to implement this change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The way to increase the turnaround time at Chester is to add another unit to the Chester circuit (as has been the case the past few autumn/winter timetables on this line), however I believe unit availability and staffing are not there at the moment to implement this change.

I believe the reason is that Maghull North required the previously interworked Ormskirks and Kirkbys to be split and an extra unit to be put in there, so it's not now available to use to Chester. Only other option (which in the situation might make sense temporarily) would be skip-stopping Aughton Park and Town Green (half hourly each, none calling at both, as with them being only a mile or so apart traffic between them is near non-existent) to keep the running times unchanged, but they were tight anyway.

 

[MR-507508]

I believe the reason is that Maghull North required the previously interworked Ormskirks and Kirkbys to be split and an extra unit to be put in there, so it's not now available to use to Chester. Only other option (which in the situation might make sense temporarily) would be skip-stopping Aughton Park and Town Green (half hourly each, none calling at both, as with them being only a mile or so apart traffic between them is near non-existent) to keep the running times unchanged, but they were tight anyway.

Even after May 2018 timetable change once Maghull North opened they did add an extra unit to the Chester during autumn/winter 2019 (& 2018 I think).
They usually don't have the additional unit during summer.
The current situation I believe is staffing the additional unit if it were introduced and also the fleet size is shrinking.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The normal leaf-fall timetable is approaching (mid-September to mid-December).
The usual tactic on the Chester line is to extend journey times by 5 minutes and add another unit into the diagrams.
This means a unit lays over for 10 minutes at Chester, with the next one waiting outside the station until the first one leaves.
The extra 5 minutes is usually frittered away at Rock Ferry and Birkenhead Central northbound, after which it follows the normal timetable.

 

[karlbbb]

I can only assume this will be worse when the 777s come in and have reduced unit numbers again?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can only assume this will be worse when the 777s come in and have reduced unit numbers again?

Should be better, as FLIRTs go like the proverbial off a stick while 50x are a bit sluggish, and the new dispatched "DOO" operation will also take maybe 5-10 seconds off per stop, which is why they've pushed so hard for it rather than conceding to fit guard panels.

I reckon a FLIRT, assuming the power is up to it, should easily get at least 5 minutes off an all stations Chester or Southport, possibly a bit more.

 

[nedchester]

The normal leaf-fall timetable is approaching (mid-September to mid-December).
The usual tactic on the Chester line is to extend journey times by 5 minutes and add another unit into the diagrams.
This means a unit lays over for 10 minutes at Chester, with the next one waiting outside the station until the first one leaves.
The extra 5 minutes is usually frittered away at Rock Ferry and Birkenhead Central northbound, after which it follows the normal timetable.

It'll be interesting if the leaf fall timetable can co-exist alongside the proposed expanded services that TfW intend to offer in a year or so's time as more use of Plat 7 may be needed.....

 

[pdeaves]

I also noticed that on the Kirkby line earlier this week that trains were cancelled due to 'Overhanging foliage obscuring signals'. If only there was a simple way to rectify the problem.

There is, but it still takes time to deal with the issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'll be interesting if the leaf fall timetable can co-exist alongside the proposed expanded services that TfW intend to offer in a year or so's time as more use of Plat 7 may be needed.....

There is a plan, though I don't know how advanced it is, to build a second Merseyrail platform on part of the carriage sidings.

 

[jamesst]

Until recently guards could dispatch trains on Merseyral as there local door (non passenger) was closing. This could gain a vital few seconds in the busy underground sections.
This has now been stopped and as a result punctuality is suffering especially on the Chester line with its minimal turnaround and no recovery time This is really showing.
Throw in a lot of people leaving, quite a bit of sickness and the problems have magnified recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until recently guards could dispatch trains on Merseyral as there local door (non passenger) was closing. This could gain a vital few seconds in the busy underground sections.
This has now been stopped

Has it, then? Not in my observation!

(I guess only a few staff are willing to take the risk of being disciplined for continuing to do it, though - but I definitely witnessed it happen last Sunday - I'll not say where/when so as not to get someone in trouble - old habits I guess die hard!)

 

[Kite159]

Should be better, as FLIRTs go like the proverbial off a stick while 50x are a bit sluggish, and the new dispatched "DOO" operation will also take maybe 5-10 seconds off per stop, which is why they've pushed so hard for it rather than conceding to fit guard panels.

I reckon a FLIRT, assuming the power is up to it, should easily get at least 5 minutes off an all stations Chester or Southport, possibly a bit more.

Also depends how fast the doors open/close on the newer stock compared to the older stock, especially with the extending step.

 

[nedchester]

There is a plan, though I don't know how advanced it is, to build a second Merseyrail platform on part of the carriage sidings.

It keeps being mooted but it’s years off.

Main issue would be access to the additional platform with the need for lifts etc

 

[Kite159]

It keeps being mooted but it’s years off.

Main issue would be access to the additional platform with the need for lifts etc

Unless they do something with installing a crossover from 7a onto the down through line (installing a short section of 3rd rail) to allow two services onto platform 7 at once. Similar to Wimbledon with the trams.

 

[nedchester]

Unless they do something with installing a crossover from 7a onto the down through line (installing a short section of 3rd rail) to allow two services onto platform 7 at once. Similar to Wimbledon with the trams.

Plat 7 is needed for TfW services between one ME leaving and the next arriving (10 mins 4 times an hour) on occasions. The leaf fall TT causes chaos at times in this regard.

 

[Skie]

With the 777s there would be no need for a 3rd rail extension, so if the Chester layout supports it they could use any platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the 777s there would be no need for a 3rd rail extension, so if the Chester layout supports it they could use any platform.

I never thought of that but it is a very good point, though the other platforms are very well used, aren't they?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Also depends how fast the doors open/close on the newer stock compared to the older stock, especially with the extending step.

You can try that out in East Anglia, and the answer is that they aren't noticeable as being slow. The step takes about 2-3 seconds if I recall. I don't remember if UK stock works the same as Swiss, which is that the step deploys when the doors are released and retracts when they are locked, rather than waiting for the button press, which would speed things slightly.

As 507/508 doors aren't that quick and the hustle alarm sounds for quite a long time, I suspect with "close local, ding ding, ding ding" taken out (probably about 5 seconds total, which is why I think they have been so obsessed with not wanting guard panels despite that seeming a fairly cheap solution to the dispute) the FLIRT will still be quicker even before the vastly better acceleration.

 

[MattRat]

Should be better, as FLIRTs go like the proverbial off a stick while 50x are a bit sluggish, and the new dispatched "DOO" operation will also take maybe 5-10 seconds off per stop, which is why they've pushed so hard for it rather than conceding to fit guard panels.

I reckon a FLIRT, assuming the power is up to it, should easily get at least 5 minutes off an all stations Chester or Southport, possibly a bit more.

But it depends on the timetable. If they keep the old one, the current problems get solved. If they make a new one, we'll be back at square one....

 

[Chiltern006]

people who live on merseyrail im curious.
do you prefer a 15 minute frequency with 3 cars or 20 minutes with 6 cars?

only reason i ask is i was up a few weeks back and every service was a 3 car, and very busy. contrast that to october there was still a decent amount of space available

 

[Bletchleyite]

people who live on merseyrail im curious.
do you prefer a 15 minute frequency with 3 cars or 20 minutes with 6 cars?

only reason i ask is i was up a few weeks back and every service was a 3 car, and very busy. contrast that to october there was still a decent amount of space available

There can't be enough units for the latter any more, otherwise some of the 3s would be extended to 6. They really are getting short of working sets now. Also you can't really compare the August school hols to a drizzly October day!

I personally think they should bin the 4tph Chester until the FLIRTs are all in service, everything else would then be fine, it was for years.

 

[D821]

Are all the wheel bearings sorted now?
I'm curious to see how Merseyrail will handle the Open golf tournament next year and whether they have the 777s on the West Kirby branch by then.

 

[MattRat]

people who live on merseyrail im curious.
do you prefer a 15 minute frequency with 3 cars or 20 minutes with 6 cars?

only reason i ask is i was up a few weeks back and every service was a 3 car, and very busy. contrast that to october there was still a decent amount of space available

Personally, if it was possible, I'd prefer the longer, less frequent trains, so they'd be less crowded and I'd always get a seat, but I'm probably in the minority. With how everyone is constantly trying to race about everywhere, I think they want to wait less time for a train, and will put up with being crammed in like sardines if it means the above.

In fact, I have an actual example proving it. Was on a reasonably busy train from Orrell Park to St Michaels, and was going to get off at Central to change, but the train went no further than Sandhills due to a fault at Moorfields. I suspect one of the tracks was out because only the Hunts Cross trains were let past. While everyone on my train got on the next Hunts Cross train to get to Central, I waited for the one after, because that Hunts Cross train was also busy, so as you can imagine, add on our trains passengers and it was like a Tube train, but I was the only one, so it shows just how much people value time over comfort.

 

[prod_pep]

I believe the reason is that Maghull North required the previously interworked Ormskirks and Kirkbys to be split and an extra unit to be put in there, so it's not now available to use to Chester. Only other option (which in the situation might make sense temporarily) would be skip-stopping Aughton Park and Town Green (half hourly each, none calling at both, as with them being only a mile or so apart traffic between them is near non-existent) to keep the running times unchanged, but they were tight anyway.

Slightly off-topic, but for correctness' sake, the Ormskirk and Kirkby lines were not interworked prior to Maghull North's opening, except during 30 minute service times. The full 15 minute timetable required five and three units for the self-contained Ormskirk and Kirkby lines respectively.

Maghull North's opening did require an additional sixth unit on the Ormskirk line, which was in fact sourced by withdrawing peak-time extra workings on the Southport line. The new arrangement sees painfully slow running times on the Ormskirk branch and a long dwell waiting for the single track section to clear after Aughton Park. This line could, just about, still be worked by five units, with around six minutes' turnaround at Ormskirk, but in today's risk-averse climate, they won't accept such short turn-backs.

The Wirral Line arguably suffers from the current self-contained arrangement, whereas before May 2002 all branches were worked in sequence. This allowed any delayed Chester trains to recover time at New Brighton, which had a longer turnaround. Self-containment here also made the New Brighton line unnecessarily slow to accommodate four units, with outbound dwells de rigueur at Grove Road, Wallasey Village and, particularly, Birkenhead North. Conversely, self-containment has the significant benefit of reducing knock-on delays across other branches.

 

[Pacef8]

South wirral i usually rock up knowing its no more than a 15 minute wait . Well thats how it was before things went wrong.

 

[gazzaa2]

It's annoying with Merseyrail that if it's a few minutes late they start skipping stops. Annoying if you need to get home and aren't going to a main terminus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maghull North's opening did require an additional sixth unit on the Ormskirk line, which was in fact sourced by withdrawing peak-time extra workings on the Southport line. The new arrangement sees painfully slow running times on the Ormskirk branch and a long dwell waiting for the single track section to clear after Aughton Park. This line could, just about, still be worked by five units, with around six minutes' turnaround at Ormskirk, but in today's risk-averse climate, they won't accept such short turn-backs.

Presumably the 777s will get this maybe to 8-9 minutes, and so they'd return to five?

It is quite bad that Ormskirk is now a full seven minutes slower than the 1980s timetable, though as I have mentioned before two of those minutes were from the addition of hustle alarms. When running a service with a lot of stops, seconds at each count, as I'm forever shouting on the buses forum!

 

[Bikeman78]

Until recently guards could dispatch trains on Merseyral as there local door (non passenger) was closing. This could gain a vital few seconds in the busy underground sections.
This has now been stopped and as a result punctuality is suffering especially on the Chester line with its minimal turnaround and no recovery time This is really showing.
Throw in a lot of people leaving, quite a bit of sickness and the problems have magnified recently.

A number of observations. Timekeeping seems to be about the same as previous trips, possibly slightly worse. Some crews have absolutely no trouble keeping time, others lose three minutes along the length of the route. Most guards give two on the bell and flick the local door switch at the same time so their door shuts just as the train starts to move.

Passenger loads seem a lot greater than my last visit in March. I'm surprised that they don't leave the six cars out all day on the Southport line. In fact they did so on Thursday. Was there some sort of event on in Liverpool?

I don't think cutting back to half hourly on the Chester line would work at all, unless they were six cars. But then you don't save any units and have tighter turn rounds at Chester because they'd have to call at Capenhurst in both directions. When was the poor timekeeping that prompted the removal of Bromborough Rake and Green Lane? They didn't struggle this week and often had to wait time after the missed stop.

Regarding ride quality, the only bad one I found was 508114. Bottomed out repeatedly. I did several runs on the fast jointed section between Formby and Hightown. One unit bottomed out on one joint, all the others were absolutely fine. You can hear the suspension hissing away trying to keep the carriage level. Also if you sit right at the front you can hear the old school AWS bell and starting bell. A real blast from the past.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

I get the impression there are quite a few new (young / unfamiliar face) guards, and some of them certainly seem to struggle with time keeping, especially noticeable are long delays in confirming the train has stopped in the correct place before opening doors (and these are mostly 3-cars in 6-car platforms!). I hope experience will speed this up, although the premature exposure of 4-car stop signs for 777s has made stopping positions considerably less predicable (some drivers stop to the 3-car stop board as always, others take the train about 1/3 of a coach further to the 777 4-car stop board). The 4-car signs have been up for a while covered in black plastic, but the weather is now stripping the plastic off ...

 

[Bikeman78]

I get the impression there are quite a few new (young / unfamiliar face) guards, and some of them certainly seem to struggle with time keeping, especially noticeable are long delays in confirming the train has stopped in the correct place before opening doors (and these are mostly 3-cars in 6-car platforms!).

Yes that's a very good point. It was taking noticeably longer on some trains for the doors to be released. Those valuable seconds add up on frequent stop journeys.