Merseyrail 777 introduction

[baldyman26]

People point the finger at Merseyrail. I'm pretty sure if it was up to them they would have more trains, running 8 cars on all lines, stopping at every station. This farce sits firmly with Merseytravel and Stadler. "Our trains" and their roll out has been an absolute shambles. And now Merseytravel have revealed they ballsed up the buses too. Where is the governance and why has nobody been held responsible. The failed trams are another example. Egos playing fast and loose with public money. If only Merseyrail "spokespeople" were able to say what they really think.

 

[karlbbb]

I know that was the Mersey Railway practice, but I didn't think it continued into BR days...

As far as I understand, it's still the case of internal promotion only; happy to be corrected/confirmed by someone more knowledgeable though.

 

[Tremzinho]

BBC running an article about trains not stopping at Cressington. Will we see any progress on this?

Link to BBC article

The specs for the 777s boasted that they would have automatic selective door opening, with sensors to detect if the platform was present.

So why are they having this issue at Cressington? Does the technology not work properly, in which case they should be demanding compensation from Stadler?

 

[karlbbb]

The specs for the 777s boasted that they would have automatic selective door opening, with sensors to detect if the platform was present.

So why are they having this issue at Cressington? Does the technology not work properly, in which case they should be demanding compensation from Stadler?

Drivers haven't been trained yet, due to not having enough units available for normal service (so none free at all to do training runs) as well as a lack of drivers/driver trainers to actually perform the training. As far as I understand, the trackside equipment is in place at Cressington.

 

[Skie]

The specs for the 777s boasted that they would have automatic selective door opening, with sensors to detect if the platform was present.

So why are they having this issue at Cressington? Does the technology not work properly, in which case they should be demanding compensation from Stadler?

The trains supported it from delivery but it needed network rail to add the balises to the tracks (and do lots of measuring and hands on hips). Then the training for crews could begin.

 

[Northerngirl]

People point the finger at Merseyrail. I'm pretty sure if it was up to them they would have more trains, running 8 cars on all lines, stopping at every station. This farce sits firmly with Merseytravel and Stadler. "Our trains" and their roll out has been an absolute shambles. And now Merseytravel have revealed they ballsed up the buses too. Where is the governance and why has nobody been held responsible. The failed trams are another example. Egos playing fast and loose with public money. If only Merseyrail "spokespeople" were able to say what they really think.

Im pretty sure its the opposite somtimes, the management seems utterly disorganised most of the time

 

[nilvaj395]

People point the finger at Merseyrail. I'm pretty sure if it was up to them they would have more trains, running 8 cars on all lines, stopping at every station. This farce sits firmly with Merseytravel and Stadler. "Our trains" and their roll out has been an absolute shambles. And now Merseytravel have revealed they ballsed up the buses too. Where is the governance and why has nobody been held responsible. The failed trams are another example. Egos playing fast and loose with public money. If only Merseyrail "spokespeople" were able to say what they really think.

I agree with this, they have made a right mess of the Hydrogen buses, and really anything that comes from Steve Rotherham has been proven to be tacky and unthought-out. He could have just have gotten electric buses from the get-go like any other operator that has proven that they work, but he just has to be 'different'.Sort of off-topic, but it's hilarious that in the same amount of time that we have gone from 0 to nearly full Bee Network, LCR has done almost nothing but get a few buses reliveried or new buses (that the operators themself) bought, at least until the EV's arrive from ADL.

People may give Andy Burnham alot of flac (justified or not) but the one thing he has done well is the design and roll out of the Bee Network.

Seeing the state of the issues with the (publicly owned) trains after nearly 3 years now in passenger service, im glad for once that a private company is running the service as opposed to Steve Rotherham / LCR / or whatever it's called now (TfLCR?)

 

[Sam 76]

People point the finger at Merseyrail. I'm pretty sure if it was up to them they would have more trains, running 8 cars on all lines, stopping at every station. This farce sits firmly with Merseytravel and Stadler. "Our trains" and their roll out has been an absolute shambles. And now Merseytravel have revealed they ballsed up the buses too. Where is the governance and why has nobody been held responsible. The failed trams are another example. Egos playing fast and loose with public money. If only Merseyrail "spokespeople" were able to say what they really think.

Ordering 52 Units increased to 53 was never going to be enough and is arguably the biggest farce of all.

The remaining units don’t have time to have faults rectified, short forming in Autumn due to inevitable wheel flats. That’s only the start of it.

Even if all 53 units are available which is impossible given maintenance etc, it would still be nowhere near the number required

 

[Old Yard Dog]

A challenging night for Merseyrail yesterday. Everton were made to play Arsenal at 8 pm on the last Saturday before Christmas, one of the busiest nights of the year in Liverpool city centre. Apparently this was so the Gunners' players didn't have to play Sunday followed by Tuesday. Poor overworked things.

This put enormous pressure not only on the Northern line but also on the Wirral line with only a handful of 4-car trains timetabled to get people home after the game. Any spare units were put on the Northern.

I drove to Hooton and have never seen the car park so full. After the game, having been sat in the worst seat in the ground for a quick getaway, I decided to walk to Moorfields rather than join the long queues at Sandfields. At Moorfields, like all the Merseyrail stations, there were multiple security staff on duty. Staff prevented access from the concourse to the Wirral line platforms due to overcrowding on the aforementioned causing me to miss the 2255 to Ellesmere Port. So I waited for the 2312 to Chester carefully noting where the doors were when the intervening West Kirby train stopped. The 2312 left Moorfields with standing room only making it extremely difficult for would-be passengers to board at Lime Street and particularly Liverpool Central and James Street. Many were left behind.

However Merseyrail, to their credit, put on an extra 2321 short working from Moorfields to Hooton. This did NOT pick up at Moorfields so was obviously designed to help clear the masses at the other stations on the loop. Large numbers exited the 2312 at Hooton where there were long queues of cars around the block waiting to pick up alighting passengers.

All in all, Merseyrail seemed to do well in trying circumstances.

 

[jamesst]

Maybe Merseyrail need to review their archaic stance of only employing drivers who have served time as guards first. I believe they're the only TOC to still do this?

Merseyrail was also the only toc that still used drivers as guards when they were short, both practices have now stopped.
It takes time to train drivers and if people are retiring at the same time it becomes a vicious circle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2025 ==

Drivers haven't been trained yet, due to not having enough units available for normal service (so none free at all to do training runs) as well as a lack of drivers/driver trainers to actually perform the training. As far as I understand, the trackside equipment is in place at Cressington.

Some drivers have been trained and the track equipment is in place all over the northern line.
The problem remains a lack of units, running the service is prioritised which i cant really argue with.
Kirkdale and latterly Birkenhead have been short of drivers for a while, there are currently new drivers training but obviously that eats up all available leader drivers.

 

[MR-507508]

Merseyrail was also the only toc that still used drivers as guards when they were short, both practices have now stopped.
It takes time to train drivers and if people are retiring at the same time it becomes a vicious circle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2025 ==


Some drivers have been trained and the track equipment is in place all over the northern line.
The problem remains a lack of units, running the service is prioritised which i cant really argue with.
Kirkdale and latterly Birkenhead have been short of drivers for a while, there are currently new drivers training but obviously that eats up all available leader drivers.

In regards to a lack of units, could one of the 8 car sets not be used from the Southport line, after the morning peak, and returned back to the Southport line for the evening peak?

 

[jamesst]

In regards to a lack of units, could one of the 8 car sets not be used from the Southport line, after the morning peak, and returned back to the Southport line for the evening peak?

Its a struggle to keep the 4 8car diagrams on Southports as it is, one of the main issues is the asdo units use a different software package than the normal units

 

[karlbbb]

Its a struggle to keep the 4 8car diagrams on Southports as it is, one of the main issues is the asdo units use a different software package than the normal units

This is an absolutely puzzling statement. Surely Stadler have a reasonably "off the shelf" implementation of ADSO that doesn't require trains to be running on different software versions? It feels like Stadler have a lot to answer for with the 777s.

 

[FrontSideBus]

I still see units with non-multi working stickers in the cab. What is that all about still? Software?

 

[WirralLine]

I still see units with non-multi working stickers in the cab. What is that all about still? Software?

Presumably as mentioned here -

Its a struggle to keep the 4 8car diagrams on Southports as it is, one of the main issues is the asdo units use a different software package than the normal units

The units running around in pairs have different software allowing ASDO operation whereas the others are not, hence the non multi stickers I'd assume.

 

[baldyman26]

I was watching a guard earlier, the PIS was doing all sorts of weird stuff, they were in and out of the cab having to apologise and to correct the announcements. I asked him what is going on with it and he said it can't be fixed and has never worked as it should. If they can't get a simple thing like pis working, how do you expect them to get the selective door system working safely.

 

[Ellis101]

I was watching a guard earlier, the PIS was doing all sorts of weird stuff, they were in and out of the cab having to apologise and to correct the announcements. I asked him what is going on with it and he said it can't be fixed and has never worked as it should. If they can't get a simple thing like pis working, how do you expect them to get the selective door system working safely.

Seriously embarassing these things are still happening going into 2026 I never ever thought I'd wish we kept the 507/508s but at least they could run 6 cars on the hunts cross branch in the peak and had a funtioning announcement system.

 

[urbophile]

Seriously embarassing these things are still happening going into 2026 I never ever thought I'd wish we kept the 507/508s but at least they could run 6 cars on the hunts cross branch in the peak and had a funtioning announcement system.

Not always the latter. The 777s seem better in that regard even if they are not perfect.

But it is unbelieveable that the door problem at Cressington (is that the only station on the network with short platforms?) still needs to be resolved. They have had years - since long before the trains were delivered – to get this right.

 

[WirralLine]

But it is unbelieveable that the door problem at Cressington (is that the only station on the network with short platforms?) still needs to be resolved. They have had years - since long before the trains were delivered – to get this right.

Im sure Hamilton Square was mentioned a while back as requiring asdo too but cant be certain.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Not always the latter. The 777s seem better in that regard even if they are not perfect.

But it is unbelieveable that the door problem at Cressington (is that the only station on the network with short platforms?) still needs to be resolved. They have had years - since long before the trains were delivered – to get this right.

I expect that Green Lane needs it too.

 

[AndrewE]

I agree with this, they have made a right mess of the Hydrogen buses, and really anything that comes from Steve Rotherham has been proven to be tacky and unthought-out. He could have just have gotten electric buses from the get-go like any other operator that has proven that they work, but he just has to be 'different'.Sort of off-topic, but it's hilarious that in the same amount of time that we have gone from 0 to nearly full Bee Network, LCR has done almost nothing but get a few buses reliveried or new buses (that the operators themself) bought, at least until the EV's arrive from ADL.

Interesting article on Hydrogen buses here: https://cleantechnica.com/2025/12/18/hydrogen-bus-purchases-reflect-broken-systems-not-bribes/ it includes

When battery electric technology overtook hydrogen, the [hydrogen] ecosystem did not dissolve. It defended itself. Evidence that contradicted its assumptions was discounted or reframed. I have described this dynamic in my writing as self healing belief systems, where failure leads to calls for more funding rather than reassessment.

A notable example was the EU’s 2023 hydrogen status report. It was a litany of failures in all of the details. The frame of the executive summary was that more money needed to be spent on hydrogen so that it could compete with battery electrification, which was outstripping it everywhere. The empirical data presented by itself was damning of hydrogen for transportation, but when compared with the rapid advance of battery electric, the only real conclusion was that the hydrogen experiment had been run and needed to be defunded. Yet that’s not what happened or is happening.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Im sure Hamilton Square was mentioned a while back as requiring asdo too but cant be certain.

I expect that Green Lane needs it too.

Are there plans for the Wirral line to get doubles?

 

[M28361M]

Cressington is not the only station which requires SDO, but is unique in that it requires an entire unit to be locked out rather than just one door.

For those unfamiliar with the station: Cressington sits in a cutting with road bridges at both ends of the platforms. When the station was reopened and upgraded for Merseyrail in 1978, the platforms were extended into the cutting under the road bridge at the Liverpool end. The platform extensions are very narrow and required special dispensation for construction, even by the more relaxed standards of the 1970s. For as long as 507s and 508s ruled the roost, grandfather rights applied. The arrival of the 777s required an alternative solution. The "normal" width platform can only accommodate a 4-car unit.

But yes, it is ridiculous that we are still waiting on a solution. It is nearly six years since the first 777 was delivered!

 

[Ellis101]

Are there plans for the Wirral line to get doubles?

I highly doubt there is enough units.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2025 ==

Cressington is not the only station which requires SDO, but is unique in that it requires an entire unit to be locked out rather than just one door.

For those unfamiliar with the station: Cressington sits in a cutting with road bridges at both ends of the platforms. When the station was reopened and upgraded for Merseyrail in 1978, the platforms were extended into the cutting under the road bridge at the Liverpool end. The platform extensions are very narrow and required special dispensation for construction, even by the more relaxed standards of the 1970s. For as long as 507s and 508s ruled the roost, grandfather rights applied. The arrival of the 777s required an alternative solution. The "normal" width platform can only accommodate a 4-car unit.

But yes, it is ridiculous that we are still waiting on a solution. It is nearly six years since the first 777 was delivered!

The frustration it has caused for many commuters including myself who rely on the network nearly every other day was not hard to deal with at first believing it was a temporary problem, that supposedly wouldnt last too long but it has become really frustrating for many of us now that it feels like it's never going to end.

Additionally the 8 car Southport services having to empty at Liverpool Central and reverse to let the Hunts Cross train through is really annoying when it used to just load and depart as normal. (I can imagine even more so for the Staff!)

Someone really needs to be held accountable as I feel like Merseyrail just don't care and want to keep the "temporary" timetable or brush the problems under the carpet forever.

Regarding Cressington it's even more stupid when they are running a 15 minute shuttle bus to Liverpool South Parkway I mean what a waste of money it makes the journey much longer as well I certainly would not be happy if it was my local.

 

[FrontSideBus]

I expect that Green Lane needs it too.

The 8 car stop sign at green lane is quite a bit up inside the tunnel!

 

[Lloyds siding]

I highly doubt there is enough units.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2025 ==


The frustration it has caused for many commuters including myself who rely on the network nearly every other day was not hard to deal with at first believing it was a temporary problem, that supposedly wouldnt last too long but it has become really frustrating for many of us now that it feels like it's never going to end.

Additionally the 8 car Southport services having to empty at Liverpool Central and reverse to let the Hunts Cross train through is really annoying when it used to just load and depart as normal. (I can imagine even more so for the Staff!)

Someone really needs to be held accountable as I feel like Merseyrail just don't care and want to keep the "temporary" timetable or brush the problems under the carpet forever.

Regarding Cressington it's even more stupid when they are running a 15 minute shuttle bus to Liverpool South Parkway I mean what a waste of money it makes the journey much longer as well I certainly would not be happy if it was my local.

The Southport trains have almost always departed from platform 2, leaving platform 1 clear for (currently) Headbolt Lane services to arrive and depart, and the arrival of trains from Ormskirk.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2025 ==

Are there plans for the Wirral line to get doubles?

The length of electrified conductor rail was doubled at Chester a couple of years ago so I expect that it is planned for.

 

[MR-507508]

Are there plans for the Wirral line to get doubles?

In the original long-term plan, yes, 2 x 8 cars on the Chester line for the morning peak was planned and 1 x 8 car on the West Kirby/New Brighton line (these 2 lines would interwork under the timetable recast) for both morning and evening peak. Along with, some additional runs on the Ellesmere Port line during the peaks. Platform 7A at Chester would have to be used to accommodate the first 8 car into Chester after the morning peak. This would split to work the next two services out of Chester. While the second 8 car which would follow into Chester, after the first 8 car, would go ECS to North depot. Hence the requirement for the use of platform 7A, with 3 x 4 cars occupying the platform at any one time.

This would only be possible if a timetable recast could take place to reflect the reduced journey times on some of the longer routes, not currently possible due to the mode of operation of the 777s. Unit availability would also have to improve. I believe the longer term plan would require 47 units out during the peaks. This is around the same number of units out on the network when Everton are playing and 4 x 8 cars are operating on both the Ormskirk and Southport lines, under the 15 min frequency timetable.

 

[Ellis101]

The Southport trains have almost always departed from platform 2, leaving platform 1 clear for (currently) Headbolt Lane services to arrive and depart, and the arrival of trains from Ormskirk.

Yes but they now occupy platform 1 for a while whilst the train is cleared out and often delay the hunts cross train albeit not always.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but they now occupy platform 1 for a while whilst the train is cleared out and often delay the hunts cross train albeit not always.

The Ormskirk had used the reversing siding for a fair while before that, to be fair. I think it was from when an extra unit was put in the circuit - for most of the 90s and 2000s everything reversed in the platforms.

 

[nilvaj395]

Interesting article on Hydrogen buses here: https://cleantechnica.com/2025/12/18/hydrogen-bus-purchases-reflect-broken-systems-not-bribes/ it includes

Really interesting read, thanks!