Merseyrail 507/508 Replacement Tender

[Pumbaa]

Ah, yeah, oops, sorry

At the same time, the 314s instead of refurbing them as well? They're only going to get withdrawn in a few years anyway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think there would be clearance issues with 319s,

I thought the 319s were specifically down-sized for the old Thameslink tunnel under St Pancras. Is the Wirral line loop under Liverpool even more restricted?

 

[sprinterguy]

At the same time, the 314s instead of refurbing them as well? They're only going to get withdrawn in a few years anyway.

IMO it’s better for the 314s to continue on in service for a few more years until Scotrail is in the process of ordering a large fleet of standard EMUs as their new electrification projects come online and then replace the 314s with that design, rather than ordering a small batch of trains now that may be non-standard in the Scotrail fleet in a few years.

 

[northwichcat]

They can have the Thameslink class 319 fleet suitably refurbished - as dual-voltage 20m units with end gangways they would be ideal for current services and any OHLE extensions. Somebody else (eg class 321s) would get the "4th" vehicle they would have to take out of each unit to fit Merseyrail.

The 319s already have future use intended directly or indirectly on North West and South West routes. If 319s go to Merseyrail you'll need to order new AC EMUs instead.

Merseyrail is a self contained franchise and is expected to remain so and electrification plans for the North West will not allow any services to be operated on both AC and DC. Hunts Cross-Manchester isn't been electrified, while there is no link between the underground stations in Liverpool and Lime Street upper level.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Also, whilst the old 319s can be portrayed as an improvement over DMUs, I don't think they would be seen the same compared to the 507s and 508s, especially as the latter have been heavily refurbished and actually look more modern. Having to spend loads of money refurbishing the "new" trains to bring them up to the standards of what they replace is hardly economical. Don't even know if the 319s would be able to keep to time without re-gearing, or if they could easily be cut down to 3 cars (the TSOL has a hell of a lot of equipment under it). Also the idea that newer trains are automatically more reliable is very flawed for EMUs. The best modern EMUs are only just getting up to the levels of what they replaced or work alongside, and that's having had plenty of time to "bed in".

 

[mickey]

It doesn't seem fair to me that Kirkby gets just as good a service as Southport, when the amount of passengers it carries is far smaller

But as it's a much shorter journey the number of units required is considerably lower. And there's much less doubling of units than on the Southport line, which means it doesn't get a better service really.

The Southport is obviously the most used route by a distance, but I would expect New Brighton to be the least used. Rarely fills a 3-car, even in peak hours.

The 0808 and 0823 from New Brighton, as well as the 1705 from LVC, are crammed on weekdays. The 0823 really ought to be doubled - but of course it's not worth it just for one service so it won't happen.

My preference would be for a variant on the Siemens Desiro but that's likely to be prohibitively expensive and I expect we'll end up with a version of the 378 (if we get any new units at all, which I doubt really). Then again, perhaps this is a good idea...

I forgot about the subways to be honest, I imagine they must have been based on Moscow subway cars?

... - Russian metro trains are very good, and have been used in Warsaw so export to the EU is clearly not an issue...

 

[trains2064]

Its a shame that leasing companies can't come to an agreement with TOC's to lease stock even for free and do minimum work to bring them up to standard. Probable be cheaper than Warm or Cold storage.

It would also as in the case of Merseyrail allow the TOC to continue to grow in the Short term as lets be honest you may as well scrap the 507/508 that are surplus now as no one else is going to use them.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Train leasing should be based on supply and demand. If a particular type of train is not popular with TOCs, then reduce the leasing costs. At the end of the day trains that are off lease don't make any money for the leasing companies, and still cost money to store (particularly those requiring warm store), as well as losses through depreciation and deteriation (usually offset by the cost of storage).

 

[chiltern trev]

Re 150-250 cars.

This is a sensible request and any good purchasing or contracts manager will ask for a range. Count how many cars are currently in stock/required/used and then up and down the number by all the possible options and then some more.

Airlines do it when buying planes. They get a quote for n planes with various future options so they dont get stuffed on price for future planes at a later date by the supplier.

For the same reason a full list of parts and prices will also be requested and anything else you may wish to purchase from said supplier as part of the ongoing life of the product. Get all the costs fixed up front before you commit to a deal.