Merseyrail 507/508 Replacement Tender

[First class]

http://www.publictenders.net/tender...Feed:+PTenders/juwK+(PublicTenders.net+-+All)

Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive ("MPTE") is currently considering its options around the replacement of its current fleet of Class 507/508 EMU Rolling Stock. Should it decide to replace the rolling stock following conclusion of its business case process it would be seeking to award a contract for the design, manufacture and supply of in the region of 150-250 third rail electric (750v) vehicles together with spare parts. In connection with the purchase of new vehicles MPTE is also interested to receive proposals relating to the final assembly, testing and commissioning of such vehicles specifically for operation on the Merseyrail Electrics network and for the provision of maintenance facilities appropriate to such vehicles, as well as funding for the purchase of such vehicles by MPTE and the provision of any infrastructure enhancements which would be necessary to facilitate the operation of the new Rolling Stock on the Merseyrail Electrics network ("the Project"

Interesting how it says between 150 and 250 vehicles (carriages). That is quite some range. 150 is LESS than what they currently have, which is around 180.

So, anyone any ideas which manufacturer may be interested in this?

Siemens Desiro City? Class 378 variant? Something completely new?

The stock needs to have end gangway doors for emergency evac. in the tunnel sections...

Budget: between 120 000 000,00 and 325 000 000,00 EUR
(£105m to £285million)

 

[WatcherZero]

This seems quite out of the blue after they only last year saying they wouldnt do any fleet replacement in 2013 as planned because of the recent refurbishment and that now their stock could run until 2020.

 

[First class]

I have a feeling that this will be a big disaster.

Less units than present, done on the cheap.

 

[MCR247]

....done on the cheap.

Looks like Bombardier is getting more work then..

 

[ukrob]

I have a feeling that this will be a big disaster.

Less units than present, done on the cheap.

Why are you just making an assumption that there will be less units than there currently is? That is very negative behaviour.

It asks for ranges between 150 and 250 vehicles which would suggest to most people that they are looking at around 200.

 

[tbtc]

How many of the 177 coaches are currently needed daily? Wondered whether they were hoping new units would need fewer spares than the 1970s EMUs which they currently have

 

[anthony263]

Wonder if they may choose that Chinese firm that were going to build those polaris Bi-mode loco's for grand central?

Or maybe that firm that built those irish dmu's

 

[First class]

How many of the 177 coaches are currently needed daily? Wondered whether they were hoping new units would need fewer spares than the 1970s EMUs which they currently have

If we take Saturday day work for an example:

36 units are required, (3-cars each so 108 vehicles).

17 are supposedly "spare" and the rest are on maintenance, (6).

54 units required for Grand National Saturday...

 

[ukrob]

If we take Saturday day work for an example:

36 units are required, (3-cars each so 108 vehicles).

17 are supposedly "spare" and the rest are on maintenance, (6).

What about summer Saturdays when Hunts Cross is booked double units? That is another 30 carriages in use.

 

[First class]

Monday-Friday - 48-50 units required. 32 services are 6-car.
Normal Saturday - 36 units required. None booked as 6-car.
Normal Sunday - 21 units required. None booked as 6-car.

Summer Saturday - 46 units required.
Summer Sunday - 31 units required.

 

[tbtc]

If we take Saturday day work for an example:

36 units are required, (3-cars each so 108 vehicles).

17 are supposedly "spare" and the rest are on maintenance, (6).

Cheers, so 61% of units are needed on a Saturday (presumably more at weekday peak times)... if they can maintain the Saturday service with just over a hundred vehicles. Given that you'd hope new units will be more reliable than 1970s ones (after a "bedding in" period) that gives plenty scope for enhancements/ increases in the 150-200 vehicle order.

 

[ukrob]

Normal Saturday - 36 units required. None booked as 6-car.
Summer Saturday - 40 units required.

How are you working that out? The Southport line needs 20 units (60 carriages) on the summer Saturday timetable. That is more than a difference of four units.

 

[First class]

Normal Saturday, 18 units planned for Northern Line work.
Summer Saturday, 28 units planned for Northern Line work.

Sorry looked at a log that was for Eng. Works. 40 should be 46.

 

[MCR247]

Wonder if they may choose that Chinese firm that were going to build those polaris Bi-mode loco's for grand central?

Or maybe that firm that built those irish dmu's

Or they could choose Alstom?

Or Siemens?

Or Hitachi?

Or Bombardier?

Or CSRE?

etc

Kind of pointless isn't it... :roll:

 

[route:oxford]

Or they could choose Alstom?

Or Siemens?

Or Hitachi?

Or Bombardier?

Or CSRE?

etc

Kind of pointless isn't it... :roll:

Well, first of all some of the capable companies actually tender for the supply...

(And you missed my favourite - Staedler Rail!)

 

[WatcherZero]

Chinese have never built a 3rd rail unit have they? I imagine that would work against them.

 

[route:oxford]

Chinese have never built a 3rd rail unit have they? I imagine that would work against them.

The subway in Beijing operates on the 3rd rail model, all rolling stock manufactured in China.

 

[Pumbaa]

Chinese have never built a 3rd rail unit have they? I imagine that would work against them.

Bombardier have never built a train that works like it should, but that never seems to work against them

 

[Nym]

Or should they build an ElectroDiesel 3rd rail unit and get rid of the buffers at Kirby to run through to Wallgate?

 

[WatcherZero]

The subway in Beijing operates on the 3rd rail model, all rolling stock manufactured in China.

I forgot about the subways to be honest, I imagine they must have been based on Moscow subway cars?

 

[317 forever]

I'd like to see electrification extended from Ormskirk to Preston, and maybe Kirkby to Wigan, with the class 507/508 order extended accordingly. If these lines are electrified sooner, these could absorb the spare class 508 units.

 

[Ivo]

Speaking from my rather limited experience, Southport trains seem to be quite busy even during the off-peak. It doesn't seem fair to me that Kirkby gets just as good a service as Southport, when the amount of passengers it carries is far smaller:

KIRKBY: Kirkdale area, which also has Ormskirk trains; Fazakerley area; Kirkby area
SOUTHPORT: Bootle area; Seaforth area; Litherland area; Crosby area; Hightown area; Formby area; Ainsdale area; Southport area

Which is more heavily populated? Hmm... And for the record, the intermediate contender:

ORMSKIRK: Kirkdale area, which also has Kirkby trains; Aintree area; Maghull area; Ormskirk area

So essentially I think that Southport should be increased in either capacity or frequency (or both - OK, maybe not) to at least 16 vehicles an hour, equivalent to many lines down south, or more likely 18 due to the impracticalities of running 4-car trains on the Merseyrail network.

Now obviously some of you would not be surprised by this (and will probably remember previous posts of mine), but I have a masterplan to ultimately change the Northern and Wirral and City Lines over to Metro operation. Without turning on my older desktop computer to check its facts, I reckon it would need in the vicinity of... 450 vehicles? Around 120 of which would use OHLE and not 3rd rail?

 

[WatcherZero]

A three car train every 10 minutes? are you sure the loadings are that high?

 

[Ivo]

Long answer: It's about future-proofing. Southport alone has roughly 3,000,000 users every year, probably 3/4 of whom travel on the Northern Line into Liverpool. A few years from now, when hopefully everything will have settled after the current post-recession period that we're seemingly stuck in, the line will most likely be busier, especially with the expected growth of the airport to the south, so an increase from 12 cars wouldn't go amiss. This is augmented by the relatively weak bus service along the route; once you get past Crosby, only the X2 and 47/48 service are any worthwhile competition for anything other than local journeys. Also, I know it isn't a fair comparison, but consider this: Uxbridge to Rayners Lane has 66 (I think) vehicles an hour; Southport to Bank Hall has 12. By the way, if you think that is being hopeful, wait until you hear the Aigburth etc proposal: 30 cars an hour!

Short answer: No. I'm just being optimistic.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The stock needs to have end gangway doors for emergency evac. in the tunnel sections...

They can have the Thameslink class 319 fleet suitably refurbished - as dual-voltage 20m units with end gangways they would be ideal for current services and any OHLE extensions. Somebody else (eg class 321s) would get the "4th" vehicle they would have to take out of each unit to fit Merseyrail.

Then the main line electrification can have proper new units (Lancs/Thames Valley etc).

 

[MCR247]

I think there would be clearance issues with 319s,

 

[prod_pep]

I agree with the points on the Southport line. Under British Rail, between 1985 - 1997, this line had 6-car operation all day, every day. I really think it should be returned to this now, as even at quieter times for the rest of the network (between the peaks, weekends), services are regularly standing room only.

At the very least, 6-cars in peak need to operate in the Southport - Liverpool direction until at least 11.00 in the morning, and from 16.00 - 19.00 in the Liverpool - Southport direction. Services at these times are very busy. There are a couple of services, such as the 16.23 and 16.53 Liverpool - Southport journeys, which are 3-cars and can and do leave people behind.

The Southport is obviously the most used route by a distance, but I would expect New Brighton to be the least used. Rarely fills a 3-car, even in peak hours. In the peaks, Kirkby is full 3-car operation but services between 17.00 and 17.30 are full to standing.

 

[tbtc]

I'd hope that the bid were combined with the tender for 313 replacements on the Moorgate service in London - basically the same three coach EMUs are needed - why not build one big class?

 

[Ivo]

Because it's too sensible

 

[tbtc]

Because it's too sensible

Ah, yeah, oops, sorry