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McNulty Report

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313103

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Make everyone an ATE and the saving is about £6k to £10k depending on location? How many guards is there? 6800?

At the least they would be saving £40,800,000 per year.

At the most they would be saving £68,000,000 per year.

This of course assumes that all guards are kept and re-graded with new contracts and terms of employment.

Although I am a guard and would like to see the grade stay (can't see it happening no matter how much noise is made) I would have thought that re-grading as RPO's/RPI's would be of more benefit? Yes the wage is higher than an ATE (and where I come from ATE's earn commission), but surely it would be more commercially sensible?

I think you will find most would rather go on the dole then take a £8,000 to £10,000 pay cut my dear friend, that would include me. Again as was just mentioned it is not about a new grade it is about staff wages and conditions. As i have already mentioned earlier they would rather us have the same wages and conditions as those that were employed in 1911!
 
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Zoe

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I think you will find most would rather go on the dole then take a £8,000 to £10,000 pay cut my dear friend, that would include me. Again as was just mentioned it is not about a new grade it is about staff wages and conditions. As i have already mentioned earlier they would rather us have the same wages and conditions as those that were employed in 1911!
Didn't guards have the opportunity to become drivers on London Underground when DOO was introduced? TOCs though would most likely prefer to hire experienced train drivers from other TOCs rather than promote guards.
 

BestWestern

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Didn't guards have the opportunity to become drivers on London Underground when DOO was introduced? TOCs though would most likely prefer to hire experienced train drivers from other TOCs rather than promote guards.

Most TOC's employ trainee Drivers, as there isn't generally a readily available stream of experienced Drivers waiting to move up and down the country and fill all the vacancies. If there were, their previous TOC would still require a replacement!
 

Captain Chaos

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Didn't guards have the opportunity to become drivers on London Underground when DOO was introduced? TOCs though would most likely prefer to hire experienced train drivers from other TOCs rather than promote guards.

I was always under the impression that the number of guards promoted to drivers within TOC's is quite high? Certainly is in my depot. About three or four per round of training seem to get the promotion. I'm looking to put in for it myself but everytime it comes up something seems to happen which gets in the way of me doing it.
 

313103

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Didn't guards have the opportunity to become drivers on London Underground when DOO was introduced? TOCs though would most likely prefer to hire experienced train drivers from other TOCs rather than promote guards.

They did on the underground because part of their job was to move the train if the driver couldnt, so they had basic training on driving.
On the National network that doesnt apply, if a driver collapses or becomes ill the train has to stay where it is until another driver comes along and moves it.

If it was so easy for Guards to be promoted (not my words) to drivers do you not think this would have been done already? A Guard has to go through exactly the same process to go driving as someone straight off the street. I have just recently (in the last week) spoken to 2 conductors who belive it or not passed all the tests and failed on the personality test whatever one of them is.
 

BestWestern

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I was always under the impression that the number of guards promoted to drivers within TOC's is quite high? Certainly is in my depot. About three or four per round of training seem to get the promotion. I'm looking to put in for it myself but everytime it comes up something seems to happen which gets in the way of me doing it.

Yes, there will usually be a number of existing staff on a new Driver course. Some will often be Guards, but they could equally be station staff etc. It does make sense for a TOC to look within it's existing skillset first, even if some candidates won't be suitable. Best of luck if you do go for it!
 

Zoe

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I have just recently (in the last week) spoken to 2 conductors who belive it or not passed all the tests and failed on the personality test whatever one of them is.
These days though it's not just about passing the tests but also demonstrating the various competencies they are looking for from previous experience.
 

CarterUSM

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Those who seem to have a sizeable chip on their shoulder over us pesky Guards having the cheek to have successfully applied for our jobs on the railway and earning a decent wage for doing so, will be waiting some time yet before that happy day when thousands of mostly hard working people are forced out work. DOO can't, and won't, happen overnight. Sorry about that.

That's the impression I get myself.
 

CarterUSM

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I'm glad I wasn't imagining it either lol, you are very correct

Yes, I wouldn't like to call it envy, but it sometimes seems to be that we have an affront to have a decent payed job with pretty good conditions by and large. But I have seen in the past few years , people from other traditionally "better paid" professions , come to the railway as well as "unskilled labour".
 

ANorthernGuard

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I applied, I Passed the tests, Done my time and I am damn good at my job (if I do say so myself), Trouble is people only see a tiny fraction of our duties and that in turn brings envy, I've said it once and I'll say it again, If you are in such a poor paid job apply for another one and get off our backs!
 

WestCoast

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I applied, I Passed the tests, Done my time and I am damn good at my job (if I do say so myself), Trouble is people only see a tiny fraction of our duties and that in turn brings envy, I've said it once and I'll say it again, If you are in such a poor paid job apply for another one and get off our backs!

You can see that when uninformed people call you the "ticket man/woman". It's a bit insulting and I'm not staff.
 

dviner

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I've always wondered at the huge expense of mandatory OTMR, since it doesn't actually intervene to prevent an incident, it merely provides retrospective evidence.

Retrospective evidence can be the cornerstone of preventing future incidents.

Of course, there's probably a whole separate thread possible based on the positive and negative aspects of OTMR and what is currently done with the information it provides...
 

CarterUSM

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Retrospective evidence can be the cornerstone of preventing future incidents.

Of course, there's probably a whole separate thread possible based on the positive and negative aspects of OTMR and what is currently done with the information it provides...

Yep, I wouldn't go there, or with regards to CCTV.
 

BestWestern

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You can see that when uninformed people call you the "ticket man/woman". It's a bit insulting and I'm not staff.

I agree it can be irritating, but then that's often what people see you doing and I guess that's what comes into their minds! As has been mentioned above, the public don't always know the full spectrum of a Guard's duties, and their perception is sometimes genuinely that the Guard just 'does tickets'. I've never thought of it as being a deliberate put-down, although I hear it most when parents are talking to small children, and so it makes sense then not to over complicate things!
 

WestCoast

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I agree it can be irritating, but then that's often what people see you doing and I guess that's what comes into their minds! As has been mentioned above, the public don't always know the full spectrum of a Guard's duties, and their perception is sometimes genuinely that the Guard just 'does tickets'. I've never thought of it as being a deliberate put-down, although I hear it most when parents are talking to small children, and so it makes sense then not to over complicate things!

I read a story on here once about a guard who, as a joke, convinced some people that he was the driver and had to run to the cab to stop the train at a station. Apparently, they were fooled.

I think most people know that guards "do the doors" on most routes, although quite a few non-regulars seem quite surprised when they find out its not the driver!

Adding a new dimesion to the doors issue, some of the hardest doors to close (for a driver) must be those on LU! When there is no dispatch staff and it's very busy, it must be a nightmare.
 
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BestWestern

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I read a story on here once about a guard who, as a joke, convinced some people that he was the driver and had to run to the cab to stop the train at a station. Apparently, they were fooled.

I think most people know that guards "do the doors" on most routes, although quite a few non-regulars seem quite surprised when they find out its not the driver!

Adding a new dimesion to the doors issue, some of the hardest doors to close (for a driver) must be those on LU! When there is no dispatch staff and it's very busy, it must be a nightmare.

I am regularly shocked (still!) by just how many people address me as 'Driver' when I emerge from the back cab having just announced a stop, and open the doors. Bearing in mind that the train was still in motion as I came out of the cab! I've even had people do this whilst I am stood on the platform! And I've even had people ask if I'm the Driver while I'm checking tickets, as the train trundles along at about 90mph! Sometimes, it actually scares me that these people are for real! :o

As for the Tube, the 'system' in operation there seems to be one of hitting the button and hoping for the best, and anybody in the way either shoehorns themselves into the train or admits defeat and waits for the next one! You'll no doubt notice if you ride regularly just how often the Driver has to have two or three goes at closing the doors due to people obstructing them. Of course, they have monitors to check that nobody is going to be dragged down the platform (though quite how you'd spot it on a rush hour station I really don't know). This concept doesn't translate too well to mainline rail; if I just crossed my fingers and shut people in the doors I'd expect a meeting with my manager!
 

WestCoast

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I am regularly shocked (still!) by just how many people address me as 'Driver' when I emerge from the back cab having just announced a stop, and open the doors. Bearing in mind that the train was still in motion as I came out of the cab!

"There's nowt so queer as folk" is an old saying which sums that up:lol:

I suppose the situation you describe is almost possible, on the DLR. I wonder what the RMT's position is on GOO - Guard Only Operation - forget the driver let's have a guard (or "train captain") that does the doors, checks the tickets and can drive if necessary. ;)

It also adds another meaning to let the train take the strain!:lol:
 

BestWestern

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Oh dear; I don't think there's a tin opener big enough to open that can of worms!! :o
 

JohnCarlson

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I am regularly shocked (still!) by just how many people address me as 'Driver' when I emerge from the back cab having just announced a stop, and open the doors. Bearing in mind that the train was still in motion as I came out of the cab! I've even had people do this whilst I am stood on the platform! And I've even had people ask if I'm the Driver while I'm checking tickets, as the train trundles along at about 90mph! Sometimes, it actually scares me that these people are for real! :o

As for the Tube, the 'system' in operation there seems to be one of hitting the button and hoping for the best, and anybody in the way either shoehorns themselves into the train or admits defeat and waits for the next one! You'll no doubt notice if you ride regularly just how often the Driver has to have two or three goes at closing the doors due to people obstructing them. Of course, they have monitors to check that nobody is going to be dragged down the platform (though quite how you'd spot it on a rush hour station I really don't know). This concept doesn't translate too well to mainline rail; if I just crossed my fingers and shut people in the doors I'd expect a meeting with my manager!

I think rail drivers are fantastic. Your steering skills must be great to keep those really long 125s running along those narrow little rails at such high speeds. If I tried it I'm sure it would come off. And how Tube train drivers manage it with all those tight curved tunnels in the dark I cant imagine. I suppose they must have good headlights.

John
 

Minilad

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I think rail drivers are fantastic. Your steering skills must be great to keep those really long 125s running along those narrow little rails at such high speeds. If I tried it I'm sure it would come off. And how Tube train drivers manage it with all those tight curved tunnels in the dark I cant imagine. I suppose they must have good headlights.

John

The thing is you would be surprised at how many times I get asked how do you steer. The other favourite question is how do you change gear and is the clutch heavy. Another one is can you put a train in reverse.
The whole signing a route thing baffles people too. They think you should just be allowed to drive anywhere, and don't get me started on leaves on the line. "how can a little leaf stop a big train" is the usual question.
But without doubt the most stupid thing I ever got asked was, and I swear this is true, A train is shaped like a plane without its wings so when you are doing a high speed how come the train doesn't take off :roll:
 

CosherB

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Perhaps, if they saw you emerge from the rear cab, they thought you were a second driver, your mate up front driving the train while you checked tickets. On reversing, you'd drive from 'your' cab, and your mate would do the ticketing!:D
 

Yew

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The whole signing a route thing baffles people too. They think you should just be allowed to drive anywhere,

The best way to explain signing a route is to say you have a strict timetable to stick to, and you need to run the route a few times so you know the way. If a HST takes a mile to stop from 125, and you only see the station at the last minuite, the passangers wont be happy walking a mile to their train :)
 

BestWestern

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Perhaps, if they saw you emerge from the rear cab, they thought you were a second driver, your mate up front driving the train while you checked tickets. On reversing, you'd drive from 'your' cab, and your mate would do the ticketing!:D

You know, I never thought of that! I guess the bloke who sold them the ticket office comes out afterwards and dispatches the train as well! :D
 

313103

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The strange thing is when i am working one of our class 172s or 378s from within the train, i am often asked am i the driver, despite the fact that all they see me do is press a button! I have also heard people say i didnt think they had Conductors on here. Recently a passenger said to her friend i think these trains are like the DLR. So that tells you that some passengers do not always expect to see a driver either.

What was it that Bob Crow said they want to do to the Guards? Yes he said all these companies want their Guards is to be 'Glorified Kit Kat sellers' somehow Mr McNulty doesnt even want us to do that.
 

BestWestern

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What was it that Bob Crow said they want to do to the Guards? Yes he said all these companies want their Guards is to be 'Glorified Kit Kat sellers' somehow Mr McNulty doesnt even want us to do that.

No, it seems not :roll: Instead, he'd rather we all took a stroll down to the local Job Centre each week to collect our Giro. Which of course doesn't cost the country anything, does it...??!!! Tw*t!! <(
 

IanXC

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I haven't yet read the report but reading comments so far what struck me is could the current revenue staff numbers be deployed more effectively to raise more revenue?

Not sure how common this would be, but often services on my local line have a guard and an RPI. I would have thought that switching RPIs to operate ticket barriers at the busier stations on the route, and then having guards do ticket checks on board would yield more revenue? Not sure if there are more RPIs than would be needed on barriers though?
 

Trainbuff

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And in all those cases the signalling equipment was damaged/signallers knew about problems and stopped traffic anyway. This is among many others.

In the case of DOO trains, DSD and passcom alarms are sent through to controlling boxes and must be acted on. On the railways you are never 'out there on your own', and to state DOO trains are unsafe is scaremongering. This is old technology now, with modern GSM phones, GPS, communications and so on, far more can be done.

This is unlike the roads, where if a lorry driver of a 44 tonne truck has a heart attack, the likelihood is he'll plough straight across the central reservation of a motorway and kill many others coming the other way in much lighter cars. Shall we ban all heavy goods vehicles?

I strongly suspect the Unions will use a great deal of strike and scaremongering tactics to persuade the less informed that most if not all change must be resisted, and make the railways out to be a special case - which they are not. The fact remains the railways must modernise to 21st century working practices, innovate, and become much more competitive and much less reliant on government if the are to be sustainable.

For example, there is absolutely no reason where staff such as station personnel and conductors cannot undergo college based conversion courses of a few weeks if those people have already been in a retail environment. Anyone, should be able to get sponsorship or self-fund these courses and the railway should be able to draw on a large, readily available pool of talent paid at an appropriate rate of pay.

Even the training for more skilled positions like signallers, drivers, controllers should be done by third parties using simulators and so on to at least get to 'provisional licence' states. These should be open to anyone that wants to take up the career, just like bus, HGV drivers and airline pilots.

The railways need to invest in their staff, and staff need to invest in themselves, like just about every other area of industry so they can not only side move through rail, but be useful to other industries and employers to.

We shouldn't have a situation where staff are left with 'no qualifications' so they cannot earn the appropriate rate of pay elsewhere or in the rail industry. I dare say the threats of sackings, demotion and the general nepotism that goes on is one reason for the appalling industrial relations but it has just failed to modernise working practices, meaning staff are often fearful and trapped. The railways are one of the few industries left where 'them and us' still goes on, and often staff are not felt to be in a partnership, rather they have to 'fight' for their rights. This can be as much the fault of the Unions, as it is the management.


The other day, just over a week ago ( 8 day)a passenger pulled the Pass com in an area not in reception to the signaller after he physically assaulted the Train Manager and catering staff.

He got out the train and was running around on the track. The driver was unable to contact the signaller via NRN or his mobile, so he had to get out to perform train Protection. The man went chasing after the driver down the track!!! Other than putting Track circuit clips down there would have been no indication. If a train derailed it would also not automatically derail in such a way as to act like TC clips. what if the driver is incapacitated in this instance. remember trains can run with only a driver in DOO so if an RPI is not available there may be NO member of staff.

What if passengers are getting assaulted? Or what if customers need road replacement services as the train has missed the last connection from an unstafeed station? What if a wheelchair needs to get on at an unstaffed station as has happened to me.

Disability Discrimination Act

What about when SPT's (Signal Post Telephones) are not working too. This can happen and the signaller does not know about it
 

brompton rail

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I haven't yet read the report but reading comments so far what struck me is could the current revenue staff numbers be deployed more effectively to raise more revenue?

Not sure how common this would be, but often services on my local line have a guard and an RPI. I would have thought that switching RPIs to operate ticket barriers at the busier stations on the route, and then having guards do ticket checks on board would yield more revenue? Not sure if there are more RPIs than would be needed on barriers though?

Given that most of Northern's stations are unstaffed - example Hull to Doncaster, only staffed stations are Hull (TPE), Brough (TPE), Goole and Thorne North (both p/t & Northern)and Doncaster(EC) ... None with barriers. The other 7 stations are unstaffed. If you encounter 2 staff on a train (and I can't recall this even on busy trains) the conducted has a non guard to assist in ticket selling. By removing one (or both!) from the train there will be no ticket revenue. None of the stations have TVMs and I look forward to barriers at Saltmarsh or Broomfleet!
 

WatcherZero

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I was thinking about this, really they need to restructure the stations layout such that theres gates with a manned ticket office with a buzzable gate next to it, solves the problem of the ticket barriers needing to be manned and stations in need of a ticket office. If you have all stations on a line like this there will be no need for onboard ticket inspections. The McNulty report suggests as have others (and done in Merseyside) combining ticket offices with other general newsagent/refreshment retail at smaller stations to provide extra revenue.

Sure it wont be perfect, people will always find a way around barriers but thats a job for security improvements and random revenue operations.
 
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