McNulty Report

[CarterUSM]

Ah yes, ASLE&F and their famous opposition to DOO-P. Or have they changed their minds now? As for door operation, what exactly is the problem with the guard doing it? Slower? I think not, not when at least 30 seconds are permitted for station duties. I suppose the whole 1 or 2 tickets you may sell in that time seems terribly inefficient however. Funnilly enough, i've never been pulled up for my revenue levels or delays due to station despatch, and neither have the vast majority of guards at my depot. And we sell a LOT of tickets , and stop at many suburban stations minutes apart. Even with ATE assistance, not everyone on a 6 car EKL-GLC is going to get a ticket, and that is on a line with 3 manned stations out the 9(2 shut at 1400), and TVM's at 3 albiet card only. Busy from first train to last.

 

[notadriver]

313103, what is wrong with a second person being on the train who doesn't do the doors, like on the Javelin trains?

 

[bluenoxid]

Ladbroke Grove, Great Heck, Ufton Nervet, Lambrigg. These are only the high profile ones in recent years that I've thought of from the top of my head where the driver was incapacitated in some way (either dead or very seriously injured).

But what is someone else able to do in a serious event like that. Did the signalling trigger to block. Was the network able to protect itself from further casualties.

 

[90019]

As an aside i am so glad to see that you will still be in a job whilst a couple of hundred on merseyrail will join the growing ranks of the unemployed. God i hate people who are so self righteous.

You really are a little ray of sleet.


Do you believe that once someone loses their job, they can't get another one or something?

 

[Smudger105e]

But what is someone else able to do in a serious event like that. Did the signalling trigger to block. Was the network able to protect itself from further casualties.

It does not matter, the Rule Book states that the train crew have to protect their train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You really are a little ray of sleet.


Do you believe that once someone loses their job, they can't get another one or something?

Are you Norman Tebbitt in disguise? "If you can't find work, get on your 'bike"

 

[66526]

Luckily in all cases the trains involved were occupying the track circuits of the affected lines (in the case of Great Heck it would have been protected by signals anyway as cables were damaged). But these factors are not certain. It could happen in third rail land, who gets an emergency isolation/stops the walking wounded from coming into contact with the juice? What if not all lines are blocked and passengers in shock start wandering over lines open to traffic because there is no-one there to get a block or shout a warning to them?
Any train carrying passengers should have at least two rule book conversant members of staff on board, a driver and a guard. The driver is sitting in the crumple zone, the guard therefore is, if nothing else, a safeguard in case something goes wrong.
And we haven't even started looking at late night trains and other scenarios!

 

[90019]

Are you Norman Tebbitt in disguise? "If you can't find work, get on your 'bike"

No, but losing your job doesn't mean you can never get another one, which is how 313103 sometimes comes across.

 

[313103]

You really are a little ray of sleet.


Do you believe that once someone loses their job, they can't get another one or something?

Ok i have asked this question about myself within this thread on at least two occasions and i am still awaiting a reply!

I have done 31 years on the railway, i have no qualifications, i do not drive, i have about 15 years of worklife left, i am on £26,000 pa. Now please as you are going to be my little ray of sunshine tell me what kind of work i can do ?

Please also tell me how quick it is for someone to get another job after being made redundant and without taking a massive pay cut?

 

[Zoe]

These days it's quite difficult to get a job in an area you don't have previous experience in.

 

[Lampshade]

These days it's quite difficult to get a job in an area you don't have previous experience in.

Hence the massive youth unemployment.

 

[Mojo]

There are so many points in this thread that I'd like to reply to but have been reading on my phone all day so I can't keep up!

I think there will always be some level of emotion where people have become used to getting their own way or been so used to a job and considering it a job for life for it to be threatened.

I see people day after day sitting in mess rooms watching TV or reading magazines and not actually being on their break and think "really?" Extra time and payments for booking on and off with cashing up and walking times even when this is not required.

 

[spacehopper]

313103, what is wrong with a second person being on the train who doesn't do the doors, like on the Javelin trains?

Nothing wrong with it all.....

Except instead of a swiss army knife you have a plastic spork.

Not safety critical, no route knowledge, no traction knowledge, no knowledge of local instructions, no rules knowledge- such as protection, no fault finding or reporting.

Which would you prefer a PSCO or a PC?

But of course it is just an open and shut case, like the spinning that the difference between a conductor and a TE was all about who opened and closed the doors on the A2B and Driver Operated Despatch on SET HS1. The McNut job report states its actually better in DOO because there is less "human interaction" in despatch procedure. Surely its the other way round? More eyes and ears you have the less chance of mistakes etc?

But the only "primary responsibilities of guards are the opening and closing of train doors and train dispatch. They also have limited operational responsibilities in the event of an incident, although on DOO services these duties are perfectly adequately encompassed by the driver". Well there you have it!

So putting 6.800 guards on the dole queue will be a huge saving, subsidy will fall and fare rises will be lower.

Interesting to note been little or no mention in the press about mass sackings of guards / station staff etc? Not seen one mention that ALL trains will be DOO by default.

320 pages in the report yet DOO seems to be main focus on this board and that by getting rid of guards you will be saving loads. 200 Network Rail lawyers, 500 delay attributers, health and well being managers. Do these have more of a place in the industry then guards? If they want to save money tackle the duplication, waste created by privatised fragmented rail network rather than those working hard on front line.

What about all the mechanical boxes left? Surely technology will render all expensive signallers, P Way, S&T staff out of date and out of a job. In cab signal system, we could have a few mega centres managing train network, computers could do most of it. All we need is a Network Rail Train Net and we could have a skeleton staff and a super efficient low cost railway.

Anyway off to bed now, awake tomorrow to do a job I really enjoy and don't want to be forced out of. A job I take immense pride in helping passengers on their journey. I'm sure I'd be missed.

 

[Smudger105e]

I see people day after day sitting in mess rooms watching TV or reading magazines and not actually being on their break and think "really?" Extra time and payments for booking on and off with cashing up and walking times even when this is not required.

And I see people sitting in offices looking at ebay and think "really?" Or I see smokers outside office blocks when they are not actually on their break. How do I know this? I don't, and neither do you, so please refrain from making wild assumptions!

And sorry if this appears a bit agressive, but I know how hard the majority of Railwaymen (and women) work, and their livelyhood is being threatened not by new technology or stock, but by short sighted penny pinching at the expense of Safety, customer comfort and service.

 

[Mojo]

And I see people sitting in offices looking at ebay and think "really?" Or I see smokers outside office blocks when they are not actually on their break. How do I know this? I don't, and neither do you, so please refrain from making wild assumptions!

FWIW, I do know, because I speak to them and also see the rosters. Having staff on ''spare'' is of course vital to the smooth operation of the railway, but the inflexibility whereby these staff could be doing something more productive when not immediately required and sitting spare is just one of the many examples which have been highlighted in this report.

Similarly, how do you know people browsing the internet at work or standing outside whilst smoking aren't on their breaks either? I don't take all my lunch break all at one go; I stagger it throughout the day and often arrive early/leave late when I fancy an extended break.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm not a guard, i don't think i ever will be one (never say never) i am training to be a civil engineer so DOO doesnt affect me. So this is more the opinion of a traveller. Alot of the views come from my girlfriend who when i want to know what people think, who arnt enthusiasts (or similar), i ask her as she isnt one.

How many times do you see people asking for connections, the guard checking they know where there changing and that they have the best and correct ticket. I see this very often on northern and most of the time the conductor is giving them information they dont know. Many people turn up at leeds (my main experience) confused as it isnt the easiest station to work out, when i'm on my way to keighley ( i volunteer in pway so i have my hi vis with me) and i usually get asked at least twice where trains are and how to get to places. This happens on trains too, if guards dissapeared i think alot of people would be alot less confident travveling by rail. I completely agree with the safety reasons for having a guard ( if a driver needs to contact signaller, then the train is left with no member of staff onboard? that cannot be right? ) and all the points raised by you thbroughout thread.
My girlfriends main concern is that people dont understand the railways and that reducing on hand staff members is going to discourage alot from travelling as they have bad experiences (ie getting wrong train or getting stranded missing connections) and could very easily be counter productive. Her, her family and all my friends constantly ask me questions about stuff like that but if i didnt know as much as i do theyd have to ask a guard and if theres no guard then they wouldnt travel. In my eyes it is as simple as that. Surely the fact that TOC's have to make huge profits for shareholders wastes much more than conductors do?

 

[WatcherZero]

The other point too is defending slackness and inefficiency by saying look their doing the same in another industry isnt really helping the underlying argument. Its wrong wherever it is and the company would be right to try and make the company more efficent for its customers and shareholders.

People get emotional where it occurs in a public funded or public owned service as they see their taxes being wasted. If you condemn Eurocrats, or compliance officers or other supposed non-jobs you open yourself to the same scrutiny. And Mr Crow does a lot of condeming.

 

[Metroland]

Ladbroke Grove, Great Heck, Ufton Nervet, Lambrigg. These are only the high profile ones in recent years that I've thought of from the top of my head where the driver was incapacitated in some way (either dead or very seriously injured).

And in all those cases the signalling equipment was damaged/signallers knew about problems and stopped traffic anyway. This is among many others.

In the case of DOO trains, DSD and passcom alarms are sent through to controlling boxes and must be acted on. On the railways you are never 'out there on your own', and to state DOO trains are unsafe is scaremongering. This is old technology now, with modern GSM phones, GPS, communications and so on, far more can be done.

This is unlike the roads, where if a lorry driver of a 44 tonne truck has a heart attack, the likelihood is he'll plough straight across the central reservation of a motorway and kill many others coming the other way in much lighter cars. Shall we ban all heavy goods vehicles?

I strongly suspect the Unions will use a great deal of strike and scaremongering tactics to persuade the less informed that most if not all change must be resisted, and make the railways out to be a special case - which they are not. The fact remains the railways must modernise to 21st century working practices, innovate, and become much more competitive and much less reliant on government if the are to be sustainable.

For example, there is absolutely no reason where staff such as station personnel and conductors cannot undergo college based conversion courses of a few weeks if those people have already been in a retail environment. Anyone, should be able to get sponsorship or self-fund these courses and the railway should be able to draw on a large, readily available pool of talent paid at an appropriate rate of pay.

Even the training for more skilled positions like signallers, drivers, controllers should be done by third parties using simulators and so on to at least get to 'provisional licence' states. These should be open to anyone that wants to take up the career, just like bus, HGV drivers and airline pilots.

The railways need to invest in their staff, and staff need to invest in themselves, like just about every other area of industry so they can not only side move through rail, but be useful to other industries and employers to.

We shouldn't have a situation where staff are left with 'no qualifications' so they cannot earn the appropriate rate of pay elsewhere or in the rail industry. I dare say the threats of sackings, demotion and the general nepotism that goes on is one reason for the appalling industrial relations but it has just failed to modernise working practices, meaning staff are often fearful and trapped. The railways are one of the few industries left where 'them and us' still goes on, and often staff are not felt to be in a partnership, rather they have to 'fight' for their rights. This can be as much the fault of the Unions, as it is the management.

 

[First class]

The point i am making is although the incidents mentioned have resulted in the driver being too seriously hurt or even have died, there was on one wayor another at least one member of staff avaliable to help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You may just get your wish buddy, a certain Staff Association has agreed with merseyrail for DOO-P for its driver members. So i suggest you now write a letter to Arkwright Road thanking them.

As an aside i am so glad to see that you will still be in a job whilst a couple of hundred on merseyrail will join the growing ranks of the unemployed. God i hate people who are so self righteous.

My point with Merseyrail guards is that very few actually want to work the train. Some that do are simply concerned about being caught by a GSM "in the back".

I would have been fighting tooth and nail to keep some commercial duties with the guards which would have given them ammunition to say, look, we bring in £x per year, we pay for ourselves!

Merseyrail drivers know full well that the risks associated with losing the guard are negible. Almost every station is currently staffed all day long, so assistance isn't far away, (especially with most stations 2-4 mins apart).

OK so staff may lose their GUARD position, but a good majority will be re-allocated within the business, with others retired early etc. A good few will become drivers themselves!

My main point with Merseyrail guards is that, (from a passenger perspective), I don't see many of them going through the train and being a "customer service" person, many don't check tickets and even if they did the ability to do anything was withdrawn, many won't leave the cabs after a certain time. Essentially they are opening/closing doors and are there to assist in the very unlikely event of an emergency. These staff, (most who are good people), may find themselves proving to be more useful in other parts of the business.

The role of the guard has been allowed to become eroded away and only the guards themselves know who to blame, (RMT, themselves, ASLEF, Merseyrail???).

Also, I see no evidence that it has been agreed, as ASLEF site says:

DOO Status non passenger only

 

[Smudger105e]

The other point too is defending slackness and inefficiency by saying look their doing the same in another industry isnt really helping the underlying argument.

The point I was trying to make is that seeing someone not apparently working is not necessarily the same as them swinging the lead, they may be on an authorised break, although you says that this is not the case. I was not implying that it is right, and I apologise if this is how my comment came across

Its wrong wherever it is and the company would be right to try and make the company more efficent for its customers and shareholders.

Efficient? Is that all we expect of our railways and staff? What about customer care, safety, comfort, action in case of delay or emergency etc. But if efficiency (meaning improvement in the expenditure/income ratio for the shareholders) is all that is required, then by all means get rid of all the guards, platform staff, RPI staff, engineering staff, and so on.

People get emotional where it occurs in a public funded or public owned service as they see their taxes being wasted.

But the funding for the TOC would not change if they shed staff. TOCs are private Companies, running a service, or are they just there to make a profit? It very much depends on your (or mine) viewpoint, and political opinions.

If you condemn Eurocrats, or compliance officers or other supposed non-jobs you open yourself to the same scrutiny. And Mr Crow does a lot of condeming.

True, and that stands for anyone who is condemning of another person or group. So why does Mr Crow get a mention here? because he has the balls to stand up to TOCs? Because people view him as being an extremist?

And if you are claiming that these are 'non-jobs', are you also saying that Mr Crow as General Secretary of the RMT is doing a non-job too? Or that he should not have the temerity to criticise anyone else?

 

[313103]

Also, I see no evidence that it has been agreed, as ASLEF site says:

I am a RMT branch secretary and as such i receive all union correspondences, at least two One dated 07 April states that ASLEF reps have been in negotiation with Merseyrail about the introduction of Driver Only Operation passenger workings. The other dated 18 May reiterates this but has dropped ASLEF and stated 'A staff association'. These are currently internal mailings and may not be out there for the general populous yet.

 

[WatcherZero]

Tbh I get annoyed with Crow (an avowed communist) sitting in a job paying hundreds of thousands a year (£145,000 total actually) and picking fights purely for the sake of the fight against the interests of the people hes meant to be representing, some of the claims (for example the massive rise in Docklands wages simply because the trains were longer) are why industry wages have risen 30% above inflation over the last 10 years. Also when highly paid individuals cite wages the majority of the population would kill for and call themselves low paid. In a recent ballot only 12% of members supported his call to strike, just over half on a 20% response rate. And from talking to people they are getting worried about the public perception they are earning.

 

[First class]

I am a RMT branch secretary and as such i receive all union correspondences, at least two One dated 07 April states that ASLEF reps have been in negotiation with Merseyrail about the introduction of Driver Only Operation passenger workings. The other dated 18 May reiterates this but has dropped ASLEF and stated 'A staff association'. These are currently internal mailings and may not be out there for the general populous yet.

With the greatest respect, the only reason I can see that the RMT opposes the withdrawal of guards is because the potential of job losses. I think the safety aspect is a smokescreen to drum up support. The RMT should be straight and say that.

When you actually assess how many job cuts would happen, the RMT seems to want people to believe the entire lot would end up jobless, and as you say no other relevant experience/qualifications etc.

The reality is TOCs will more than likely offer them positions on stations, promote them to drivers, offer generous retirement options, railway admin jobs, RPIs etc...

If a guard then decided that they didn't want any of those jobs then unfourtunately they make themselves jobless.

 

[313103]

I strongly suspect the Unions will use a great deal of strike and scaremongering tactics to persuade the less informed that most if not all change must be resisted, and make the railways out to be a special case - which they are not. The fact remains the railways must modernise to 21st century working practices, innovate, and become much more competitive and much less reliant on government if the are to be sustainable.

You might be right in that the unions may do what you say, thay are there to protect their members and themselves. I mean If we did get rid of 8,000 plus Guards and say at a round figure 15,000 station staff. I dont think people will have much to say about RMT allowing 20,000 plus members leaving overnight, you will then be getting the right wing press telling everyone how the unions have allowed all these staff to go.
The one interesting point you make is that the railways must modernise to 21st century working practices. It is quite amazing that we have in one hand people telling me that the railways now carry more passengers since the heyday of rail travel of the 1930s and yet we do it with 2/3rds less staff then we did back then. The NUR membership figures for the 1930s showed they had 300,000 to 350,000 members. The total number of people employed in the industry now is less then 200,000. The only thing i see of 21st working practices is to actually go back 100 years when staff were expected to work a regular 12 -14 hour day with no breaks, no leave, no sick pay etc etc. I would like someone of your standing to enlighten what is meant by 21st century working practices.

For example, there is absolutely no reason where staff such as station personnel and conductors cannot undergo college based conversion courses of a few weeks if those people have already been in a retail environment. Anyone, should be able to get sponsorship or self-fund these courses and the railway should be able to draw on a large, readily available pool of talent paid at an appropriate rate of pay.

What kind of conversion classes are we talking about? Self Fund is another interesting thing. What does that mean? i go round Finsbury Park asking people to sponsor me going to college or paying for it myself and get into bigger financial crisis then the one im already in, I already know what kind of response i will get with the second word being OFF. I already understand what appropriate rate is. It is the one where the company will tell you what they are going to pay you and if you dont like it, close the door behind you when you leave!

The railways need to invest in their staff, and staff need to invest in themselves, like just about every other area of industry so they can not only side move through rail, but be useful to other industries and employers to.

Most people work on the railway because that is what they want to do, if i want to drive a bus i will go down to my local garage and ask for vaccancies, if i want to be a taxi driver i will go down to the licensing office, if i want to stack shelves at Tesco i will get up and go to work with my wife. The railways investing in their staff will cost an absolute fortune, and exactly how and more importantly why should a railway invest in its staff if they are going to be there for five minutes, because of a change in the companies business plan. I dont honestly think that Tesco's who employ my wife invest in their staff so that one day the staff could improve themselves and then leave the store, recruitment is one of the biggest expenditures a company has, by doing this most staff will be employed in the compainies HR dept whilst the swing door keeps going round and round and round.

We shouldn't have a situation where staff are left with 'no qualifications' so they cannot earn the appropriate rate of pay elsewhere or in the rail industry. I dare say the threats of sackings, demotion and the general nepotism that goes on is one reason for the appalling industrial relations but it has just failed to modernise working practices, meaning staff are often fearful and trapped. The railways are one of the few industries left where 'them and us' still goes on, and often staff are not felt to be in a partnership, rather they have to 'fight' for their rights. This can be as much the fault of the Unions, as it is the management.

Most staff employed on the railways now have a varied amount of qualifications, its a lot of staff like me who joined the railways straight from secondary education, i didnt bother in 1980 to take exams as i already knew i was going into a full time job, we can all be wiser after the event. I could quite easily say i should of stayed on at school, got some boring job in a office, be totally miserable that by the time i was 40 i would want to be ending it all and we wouldnt be having this discussion. My salary isnt that great especially when compared to some who say we should have a streamline railway industry, no one is saying that my MD who earns probably five times (at a conservative estimate) then me should go find another job and keep the same salary.

I have lived through my railway career knowing that at some stage, my career like that of my beloved Routemasters would come to a abrupt end, i have lived with the fear of DOO since i became a Guard in 1986, being made surplus to requirements in 1993 as a direct result, my job at the moment is only guarenteed because London Overground see the Conductors as Good ambasadors to the company for when we have the Olympics in 2012. After that its anyones guess as to 'WHEN' the company dispenses with our services.

I was the first and only ever member of my family to get a job on the railway, such was its importence my Father (God rest his Soul) use to embaress me, He used to This is my son Keith he works on British Rail. He will probably be saying now, Son i am sorry the railways are a joke now!

 

[PR1Berske]

Bob Crow and his kind remind me of those who want the Royal Mail to remain untouched by the 21st century. The fear of modernisation is why the railways are racing ahead by one measurement but held back by another; modern trains and business models anchored to out dated union attitudes.

DOO is happening now and no greater number of passengers have been killed in accidents this month than has been the case throughout the year, or for that matter last year. Accidents - thank Heavens - are exceptionally rare. As a poster has said on this page, an HGV could do a lot of damage if the driver were to drop dead at the wheel; we wouldn't suggest banning the private firm which ordered the delivery that ultimately caused carnage on the M40.

This report is another piece of evidence against the notion that the rail industry is cheap and affordable enough to be taken back into public hands. Private companies are TOCs and as with all private companies, there's pressures on profits and losses which the national purse couldn't sustain. Ultimately all TOCs, can only stretch their business model around the traditional way of doing things for so long before the skin starts to crack and they run out of string. The Government can only justify subsidising at current levels an industry whose Unions threaten all Hell for so long.

 

[Metroland]

I would like someone of your standing to enlighten what is meant by 21st century working practices.

For a start, 'them and us' needs to go. Bob Crow talking of class war is a joke with some of the salaries are well into the 'middle class range'. This is the problem with the extreme black and white of ideological politics, many people who own their own business can often be on less than half the wage of say a train driver, yet Crow would paint them as the bourgeois 'we need to attack'. Likewise managers need to engage more with employees and other companies instead of 'empire building'.

Everyone in the industry should see it as a 'partnership', where 'can do' is the norm, not putting up barriers at every turn to make a point. Staff should should feel they have a stake, and mangers should be honest and open.

Next a modern, qualified, mobile workforce. Where qualifications where can be translated inside and outside the industry are the norm, openness in entry of new recruits and inside the industry. As I said if I want to become an HGV driver or airline pilot I can, subject to me passing the courses. (Eg http://www.oaa.com/ or http://hgvexpress.co.uk/view/home.php or http://www.northlancstraining.co.uk/ etc) Yet there are very few, if any courses than allow people entry into the railway industry. Which means the same old companies run it, with the same old people, and the bad apples inside are not easily replaceable, which allows them to go on strike every five minutes. It also keeps them trapped in jobs, when they should be able to move inside and out of the industry with ease subject to their ability.

Next sensible performance incentives, would reward people that do well, not automatic block payments for everyone, and re-educate those that need it.

Until the government, industry and the unions change this, which is one of the root causes, nothing will change. Rail will not get the investment, indeed it may even contract as it will be considered an outdated, inefficient, inflexible form of transport where the people in it see it as a job for life rather than competitively meeting customers needs.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

For a start, 'them and us' needs to go. Bob Crow talking of class war is a joke with some of the salaries are well into the 'middle class range'. This is the problem with the extreme black and white of ideological politics, many people who own their own business can often be on less than half the wage of say a train driver, yet Crow would paint them as the bourgeois 'we need to attack'. Likewise managers need to engage more with employees and other companies instead of 'empire building'.

Everyone in the industry should see it as a 'partnership', where 'can do' is the norm, not putting up barriers at every turn to make a point. Staff should should feel they have a stake, and mangers should be honest and open.

Next a modern, qualified, mobile workforce. Where qualifications where can be translated inside and outside the industry are the norm, openness in entry of new recruits and inside the industry. As I said if I want to become an HGV driver or airline pilot I can, subject to me passing the courses. (Eg http://www.oaa.com/ or http://hgvexpress.co.uk/view/home.php or http://www.northlancstraining.co.uk/ etc) Yet there are very few, if any courses than allow people entry into the railway industry. Which means the same old companies run it, with the same old people, and the bad apples inside are not easily replaceable, which allows them to go on strike every five minutes. It also keeps them trapped in jobs, when they should be able to move inside and out of the industry with ease subject to their ability.

Next sensible performance incentives, would reward people that do well, not automatic block payments for everyone, and re-educate those that need it.

Until the government, industry and the unions change this, which is one of the root causes, nothing will change. Rail will not get the investment, indeed it may even contract as it will be considered an outdated, inefficient, inflexible form of transport where the people in it see it as a job for life rather than competitively meeting customers needs.

one thing that does make me laugh, quite simply is this, all this talk of staff being made redundant DOO etc (which will not happen in the the Northwest for a few decades) is do you really think this money will be saved? it will just get diverted into another fatcats purse like it has always done, Now the tories are back the working classes will be hammered always happens with them and always will, myself and my colleagues will ALWAYS fight AGAINST DOO and anything that puts passengers lives and the safety of the railways at risk, people outside the industry just think of figures, the people inside the industry know the true cost, some people on here are more than happy to see 20/30,000 people lose their jobs, hang your heads in shame

 

[Metroland]

will ALWAYS fight AGAINST DOO and anything that puts passengers lives and the safety of the railways at risk

And isn't that the problem, yet I doubt you could cite many accidents caused by DOO, or the shear cost of outdated practices. And this is just one area.

people outside the industry just think of figures, the people inside the industry know the true cost, some people on here are more than happy to see 20/30,000 people lose their jobs, hang your heads in shame

Nobody wants to see anyone lose jobs, but for the more enlightened it is known that there simply isn't going to be the money around in future and if the railways are to be a success, grow and create jobs they must meet the [especially cost] challenges.

In fact this also applies to the wider economy. The young are going to find they are going to be worse off than their parents in a large number of cases, people are going to find the UK less rich is general and needs to be more cute and competitive.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And isn't that the problem, yet I doubt you could cite many accidents caused by DOO, or the shear cost of outdated practices. And this is just one area.



Nobody wants to see anyone lose jobs, but for the more enlightened it is known that there simply isn't going to be the money around in future and if the railways are to be a success, grow and create jobs they must meet the [especially cost] challenges.

In fact this also applies to the wider economy. The young are going to find they are going to be worse off than their parents in a large number of cases, people are going to find the UK less rich is general and needs to be more cute and competitive.

I was brought up in the 80's and saw first hand the damage they did to my fathers industry, you mention Safety Vs. Cost, one question, how much is one life worth? would love to know the answer to that

 

[tbtc]

one thing that does make me laugh, quite simply is this, all this talk of staff being made redundant DOO etc (which will not happen in the the Northwest for a few decades) is do you really think this money will be saved? it will just get diverted into another fatcats purse like it has always done, Now the tories are back the working classes will be hammered always happens with them and always will, myself and my colleagues will ALWAYS fight AGAINST DOO and anything that puts passengers lives and the safety of the railways at risk, people outside the industry just think of figures, the people inside the industry know the true cost, some people on here are more than happy to see 20/30,000 people lose their jobs, hang your heads in shame

I'd describe a Guard on approx £25,000 as Middle Class.

Those on minimum wage in the UK don't have Bob Crow fighting their corner...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'd describe a Guard on approx £25,000 as Middle Class.

Those on minimum wage in the UK don't have Bob Crow fighting their corner...

22.3k in Northern land tbtc, and I didnt have it handed to me on a plate either, I have been paid minimum wage, I have done jobs that most people would turn their noses up to pay the bills, I worked damn hard to get where I am now and proud of it, I have always worked and always pay my way, I have a battered 10yo car and can just afford to go on a summer holiday with my wife and kids, i'm working class and proud of it.


Anyways lol regarding these so called savings why do the Tories always like to cull the railways, they did it with the farce that was Privatisation now they are attempting to do it with the McNulty report, if you asked the majority of passengers up in the North what they think should happen it would be to spend more on the railway not strip it to bare bones like they did in the 80's, typical good ol UK we invent something become the envy of the world at it then slowly destroy it, wether it is industry, Transport or even Sport