May 2023 changes

[Pinus contorta]

Did you hear which services staff were talking about getting cut in the west?

Yea but i ought not to be too specific

 

[Whistler40145]

Southern have added another service to Hemel Hempstead (2M97 and back to east croydon as 2O75). Thats interesting since they will get rid of the 313s.

Where would these services reverse?

 

[zwk500]

Where would these services reverse?

Bourne End Jn, as they do quite a lot when there's engineering works.

 

[PGAT]

2M97 and 2O75 already exist, they're here right now.

The new trains are 2M95 and 2O69

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Bourne End Jn, as they do quite a lot when there's engineering works.

There is (or was) a signalled crossover on the down slow at the London end , (227 points from fading memory) - RT wanted it removed so I stopped that and scheduled a passenger train "bounce back" to use it regularly. Additional working back to Euston about 0920 , perfect for off peak travellers.

 

[DDB]

Have we got any further clues or stronger evidence about whether the XC Nottingham to Birmingham New Street cut is real or not?

 

[The Planner]

There is (or was) a signalled crossover on the down slow at the London end , (227 points from fading memory) - RT wanted it removed so I stopped that and scheduled a passenger train "bounce back" to use it regularly. Additional working back to Euston about 0920 , perfect for off peak travellers.

Still there.

 

[richardderby]

Whitby seems to be losing its early morning commuter service 06.30 to Middlesborough, which now starts from Nunthorpe, pity the Esk Valley CRP, they have fought so hard...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Still there.

Good - thank you . A well argued case for retention then (and of course much used for the Bourne End Junction blockades some years back)

Especially as far far too long Watford North Junction was either not there , or not restored.

 

[The Planner]

Good - thank you . A well argued case for retention then (and of course much used for the Bourne End Junction blockades some years back)

Especially as far far too long Watford North Junction was either not there , or not restored.

Still attempts to get rid of Bourne End entirely though.

 

[WizCastro197]

Southern have added another service to Hemel Hempstead (2M97 and back to east croydon as 2O75). Thats interesting since they will get rid of the 313s.

The 313s withdrawal has nothing to do with preventing a service form being extended to Hemel Hempstead. The service is only being extended a stop further and isn't using anymore units than it currently does, as it isn't as if it is using extra trains which would then be not great.

 

[Alfie1014]

Perhaps we can hope the strange additional Colchester call on 1730 down is scrapped too ?

I doubt it the problem is the other trains around to Colchester are now so slow both the 17:12 and 17:32 take
63mins and have 7 and 6 stops respectively it’s hardly surprising that the 17:30 is so attractive!

There’s also a quality of experience factor too, 45-50 mins on a 745 or 63 on a 720 I know what I’d go for if I could choose!

 

[Sleepy]

I doubt it the problem is the other trains around to Colchester are now so slow both the 17:12 and 17:32 take
63mins and have 7 and 6 stops respectively it’s hardly surprising that the 17:30 is so attractive!

There’s also a quality of experience factor too, 45-50 mins on a 745 or 63 on a 720 I know what I’d go for if I could choose!

Really needs a fast 1720 calling SRA, Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester in the mix - 1730 must be rammed Tues - Thursday's now.

 

[Alfie1014]

Really needs a fast 1720 calling SRA, Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester in the mix - 1730 must be rammed Tues - Thursday's now.

Like the pre COVID 17:18 that used to get to Colchester in 54mins.

 

[AMD]

Yea but i ought not to be too specific

Having seen the planning document, the only cut in the west/ central regions is the Dales Rail service.
The principal changes are - a Sunday Leeds-Victoria-Chester service, along with some increases in vehicle formations to support capacity on the back of the Trans Pennine Route upgrade; The 1713 MCO-WAC service gets extended through to Liverpool; and Kirkby line services will terminate at Rainford until Headbolt Lane is authorised into service by the ORR (Expected Mon 24th July).
There are a handful of minor changes after this, but hardly worth listing as they are mainly timing changes of a few minutes here or there, plus a few Sat night/ Sun morning possession timing changes to increase the length of possessions.
Also of note is Salford Central will be open for timetable change, Hindley will remain closed until Sunday 23rd July and Ince will be closed from Monday 24th until the next TT change.

 

[a1904]

Having seen the planning document, the only cut in the west/ central regions is the Dales Rail service.
The principal changes are - a Sunday Leeds-Victoria-Chester service, along with some increases in vehicle formations to support capacity on the back of the Trans Pennine Route upgrade; The 1713 MCO-WAC service gets extended through to Liverpool; and Kirkby line services will terminate at Rainford until Headbolt Lane is authorised into service by the ORR (Expected Mon 24th July).
There are a handful of minor changes after this, but hardly worth listing as they are mainly timing changes of a few minutes here or there, plus a few Sat night/ Sun morning possession timing changes to increase the length of possessions.
Also of note is Salford Central will be open for timetable change, Hindley will remain closed until Sunday 23rd July and Ince will be closed from Monday 24th until the next TT change.

Pretty sure I've seen some cuts in West Yorkshire as well, like the 4tpd Castleford - Huddersfield one being killed off - might be wrong of course

 

[Bletchleyite]

Genuinely surprised hourly middle bit on the Cumbrian Coast has survived. Was it perhaps marginal?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Genuinely surprised hourly middle bit on the Cumbrian Coast has survived. Was it perhaps marginal?

That is impressive - off peak, Silecroft and Seascale will have the same service frequency as Bradford and Keighley. . !

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is impressive - off peak, Silecroft and Seascale will have the same service frequency as Bradford and Keighley. . !

I do wonder if the timetable and Sellafield shift requirements are such that operating the middle bit hourly doesn't require any extra units or crews. Otherwise the demand really doesn't support it.

 

[Pinus contorta]

I do wonder if the timetable and Sellafield shift requirements are such that operating the middle bit hourly doesn't require any extra units or crews. Otherwise the demand really doesn't support it.

I did notice that the timetable last year that had several services removed on the Lancaster to Carlisle line weekdays resulted in double units on some services. So not really saving much on fuel.

Worth pointing out that Seascale & Silecroft are in the constituency of Trudi Harrison and she was in the Department of Transport Not sure what she is involved in now.

Perhaps the people I overheard talking about the services being reduced in the west were referring to what happened last years timetable. My bad for repeating it on here!

 

[Pumbaa]

Have we got any further clues or stronger evidence about whether the XC Nottingham to Birmingham New Street cut is real or not?

It is real, for a period of time within the timetable at least. Concrete spalling (ie engineering works) at New St requires a reduction in platform occupation. For Avanti and WMT, there is some retiming. For XC, they have chosen to remove a train. Couldn’t tell you exact start and end dates though I’m afraid - each pair of platforms and therefore each operator is impacted at different times between summer 23 and early 24.

 

[geordieblue]

That is impressive - off peak, Silecroft and Seascale will have the same service frequency as Bradford and Keighley. . !

No they won't - ~3tph at Keighley, 5(?)tph at Forster Square - unless you're referring to the frequency of service between two destinations, which is not a sensible comparator

 

[InkyScrolls]

No they won't - ~3tph at Keighley, 5(?)tph at Forster Square - unless you're referring to the frequency of service between two destinations, which is not a sensible comparator

I was referring to the latter, and I fail to see why that is not a sensible comparator.

 

[geordieblue]

I was referring to the latter, and I fail to see why that is not a sensible comparator.

It can be extrapolated to just about anything. There is 1 regular tph from London to Glasgow (can't remember how often the LNER extensions are); there are 6tph from Frizinghall to Forster Square. This doesn't mean that demand from Frizinghall to Forster Square is 6x more important than that to Glasgow... Or that London-Glasgow should be increased to 6tph. Hope that explains my point a bit more!

 

[Bald Rick]

It is real, for a period of time within the timetable at least. Concrete spalling (ie engineering works) at New St requires a reduction in platform occupation. For Avanti and WMT, there is some retiming. For XC, they have chosen to remove a train. Couldn’t tell you exact start and end dates though I’m afraid - each pair of platforms and therefore each operator is impacted at different times between summer 23 and early 24.

Aaah, that’s right. I remember now.

so yes the services are taken out, but this is a temporary measure due to engineering works, and not because of the Business Plan changes.

 

[The Planner]

It is real, for a period of time within the timetable at least. Concrete spalling (ie engineering works) at New St requires a reduction in platform occupation. For Avanti and WMT, there is some retiming. For XC, they have chosen to remove a train. Couldn’t tell you exact start and end dates though I’m afraid - each pair of platforms and therefore each operator is impacted at different times between summer 23 and early 24.

How long has it taken to get that started?

 

[DDB]

It is real, for a period of time within the timetable at least. Concrete spalling (ie engineering works) at New St requires a reduction in platform occupation. For Avanti and WMT, there is some retiming. For XC, they have chosen to remove a train. Couldn’t tell you exact start and end dates though I’m afraid - each pair of platforms and therefore each operator is impacted at different times between summer 23 and early 24.

Thanks for finding out. It did seem a strange service to cut as in my experience they are very busy.
It still seems a bizarre set of ECS moves. I wonder why they don't run part of the route in service or if they are going to run ECS they don't take the diversion line around Derby and save a reversal? Or even find a siding much closer to Nottingham to wait in?

 

[Watershed]

Aaah, that’s right. I remember now.

so yes the services are taken out, but this is a temporary measure due to engineering works, and not because of the Business Plan changes.

Mad not to run them in service at least as far as Derby, or - more sensibly - Tamworth or Water Orton, so that passengers are inconvenienced as little as possible. Of course XC are another one of those operators with an inflated SCU allowance so that would probably be unworkable...

 

[Minstral25]

On Sundays the 9J London Bridge - Horsham have been removed with one of the 9R Bedford - Three Bridges extended to Horsham.
The Redhill Line sees a 50% cut to London Bridge services and Ilfield to Littlehaven a 50% cut to all stopping services

Realtime Trains | Departures from Horsham between 0200 and 0159 on 18/06/2023

Train information at Horsham between 0200 and 0159 on 18/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The 9J has not been half hourly on Sunday except for a short period in 2019. What’s more is that 9Rs are culled more weekends than not leaving Redhill route with an hourly Thameslink most weekends (with a Redhill only call on a Cambridge service).

This service reduction is 1/3rd at most, but in reality a regular 2 trains per hour will be an improvement.

Ifield and Littlehaven have the same service as before. Previously hourly 9J now hourly extension from Three Bridges to Horsham.

 

[The Planner]

Mad not to run them in service at least as far as Derby, or - more sensibly - Tamworth or Water Orton, so that passengers are inconvenienced as little as possible. Of course XC are another one of those operators with an inflated SCU allowance so that would probably be unworkable...

Agree, that SCU allowance is a pain in the backside.