May 2018 timetable changes

[Ibex]

On the subject of 323's it appears the Cross City services to Longbridge are finally being extended to Bromsgrove in the May timetable. It appears that only one of three will call at Barnt Green though, the xx13 BHM-Bromsgrove has the XC Cardiff service 7 minutes behind at Barnt Greent and the xx33 off Brum has the Hereford service 3 minutes behind it. I'm sure that's enough to cater for the demand from Barnt Green to Bromsgrove but I'm glad to see the extensions finally happening anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes I noticed that the Man Airport to Scotland are down to be worked by class 506 EMUs, which, having googled the class , were the old units that worked Manchester / Glossop / Hadfield / Sheffield through the Woodhead Tunnel. !

Been mentioned elsewhere 506 is a bodge for a 350 modified to run at 110mph.

 

[87015]

Been mentioned elsewhere 506 is a bodge for a 350 modified to run at 110mph.

Its not a bodge, its more poor real time trains translating of a timing load. 801 is a timing code for a BUS etc.

 

[louis97]

Its not a bodge, its more poor real time trains translating of a timing load. 801 is a timing code for a BUS etc.

No Class 506s on Real Time Trains, all show as Class 350 (Project 110). That is the conversion of the CIF output into something more accurate. The data that Real Time Trains receives does not contain the actual timing load, just however that timing load is represented in the CIF. In this case the Class 506 is how a Class 350 at 110mph is represented.

 

[IanXC]

TPE are supposed to still be introducing their new timetable as planned... The full timetable changes will not be possible to introduce until December.

Orders popcorn and finds a comfy chair.

All I can say is good luck to them if they think they can run a 350 via Bolton without the wires being finished!

 

[northwichcat]

Orders popcorn and finds a comfy chair.

All I can say is good luck to them if they think they can run a 350 via Bolton without the wires being finished!

It presumably wouldn't be too hard to implement North TPE changes but to arrange with Northern for Scottish services to run via Wigan and for Northern to run their Cumbria services via Bolton as an interim measure.

 

[Confused147]

New trains from Sheffield to Manchester Picc:

21:11 SX TPE
23:27 SX NT Stopper via Stockport

On Saturdays there is a 21:11 and 22:11 to Man Airport

 

[Solent&Wessex]

There are winners and losers in any set of changes, moaning about hour journeys via Piccadilly or all shacks stoppers to Huddersfield doesn't gain you any sympathy.

Indeed. There are always winners and loosers. Things can't stay the same for ever as service patterns and passenger demand changes. Stalybridge still has direct trains to Leeds, albeit a bit slower than now. But Mossley and Greenfield gain direct trains to Leeds which they don't currently have. So some loose some win. Other winners are Batley who have 2 direct trains an hour to Huddersfield compared to 1, and Dewsbury who regain a direct service to Manchester Airport. Other loosers include Selby and Hull passengers travelling to Manchester who have a slower journey and Garforth who loose their fast TPE trains to York.

The vast majority of eastbound passengers from Stalybridge are going to Huddersfield or Leeds anyway, or were having to change on to a connecting train to get to Newcastle or suchlike anyway. Of all the current TPE services the Hull route has the lowest number of passengers travelling across Leeds. Of those that do the majority are going to Manchester Airport and have to change trains somewhere anyway, so nothing affects them too much.

The problem is that absolutely everybody wants a direct train from their station to every other station. This just simply isn't possible with the capacity available.

I don't think the timetable is ideal - far from it - and there will, I think, be major capacity problems at the start before the new TPE stock arrives and whilst passengers get used to the new timetables and changing trains in different places to now. I think that passengers from some of the smaller local stations will be the worst affected by capacity issues in the short term. That said I do think that the alterations to north TPE are probably the least worst option when everything is considered.

 

[Barn]

Looking at the SE Metro services which are already uploaded:

Greenwich (dep) to Maze Hill - xx07, xx17, xx37 and xx47 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/31/1000-1159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
Maze Hill to Greenwich (arr) - xx07, xx27, xx37 and xx57 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/31/1000-1159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

This leaves two "gaps" per hour for Thameslink - up services at xx27 / xx57 and down services at xx17 / xx47.

Thank you. That ties in with the Southeastern May 2018 consultation timetables. Do you think we can assume that the calling pattern is finalised - i.e. all stations from London Bridge to Rainham save for Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith?

 

[BrianB]

It would appear that nearly everything from Manchester to Wigan via Bolton will terminate at North Western, with Manchester to Kirby/Southport via Atherton and Wallgate of course. That means from the Bolton line to Kirby/Southport lines will now require not just a change in Wigan but a change of station too. They may not be far apart but still...

 

[northwichcat]

It would appear that nearly everything from Manchester to Wigan via Bolton will terminate at North Western, with Manchester to Kirby/Southport via Atherton and Wallgate of course. That means from the Bolton line to Kirby/Southport lines will now require not just a change in Wigan but a change of station too. They may not be far apart but still...

What's wrong with Hindley? (I mean changing there, not what's wrong with the town. ) It actually looks like the connections will be very good in the eastbound direction at Hindley - alight the train from Alderley Edge and five minutes later a Southport train will arrive on the same platform.

 

[BrianB]

What's wrong with Hindley? (I mean changing there, not what's wrong with the town. ) It actually looks like the connections will be very good in the eastbound direction at Hindley - alight the train from Alderley Edge and five minutes later a Southport train will arrive on the same platform.

The option is there, but making folk change at an unstaffed hole, in the dark, when not even all trains stop there is not going to win any friends, not when everyone has been used to changing at Wigan Wallgate for years. It's going to be a learning curve for any regulars who are losing their through trains.

 

[janb]

Looking at the new Cumbrian Coast Sunday service on RealTrainTimes it seems that the first two northbound trains of the day start at the rather odd location of Carnforth (0850 and 1013), rather than Lancaster. Is this a temporary arrangement due to engineering works between Lancaster and Carnforth I wonder? Even more annoying is the fact that the first train of the day into Carnforth from Leeds arrives in Carnforth at 1014, missing the connection to the Cumbrian Coast by 1 minute. My hopes of finally being able to the train from West Yorkshire for a day's walking in the West Lakes on a Sunday seem to have been dashed.

Looks like from the 24th June the 1013 will start from Lancaster at 1004 which is what was in the consultation. The first train was always planned to be starting from Carnforth (something to do with opening Lancaster station that early perhaps?).

The consultation had a 0811 from Leeds arriving into Carnforth 0956 thus making the connection. It seems that in an act of sublime sadism this has changed to being 1 minute after the Barrow train.

 

[Jonny]

The problem is that absolutely everybody wants a direct train from their station to every other station. This just simply isn't possible with the capacity available.

Maybe not quite, all I would like is hourly or better to the nearest interchange.

 

[totally]

It presumably wouldn't be too hard to implement North TPE changes but to arrange with Northern for Scottish services to run via Wigan and for Northern to run their Cumbria services via Bolton as an interim measure.

Well the problem is also that as Preston Blackpool will be finished they would need to be running electric units there too, I can see capacity problems on the WCML between Wigan NW and Preston.

 

[northwichcat]

Well the problem is also that as Preston Blackpool will be finished they would need to be running electric units there too, I can see capacity problems on the WCML between Wigan NW and Preston.

They don't have to run electric trains from Manchester to Blackpool via Wigan but they will have to ensure Bolton has an adequate number of services to Manchester.

 

[Ianno87]

The option is there, but making folk change at an unstaffed hole, in the dark, when not even all trains stop there is not going to win any friends, not when everyone has been used to changing at Wigan Wallgate for years. It's going to be a learning curve for any regulars who are losing their through trains.

Dunno. Changing from Liverpool to Bolton in the late evenings before now, I've felt pretty intimidated while waiting at Wallgate. Would much rather hang around at North Western, with same station being better for interchange times on this flow. Again, winners and losers.

 

[Mathew S]

Well the problem is also that as Preston Blackpool will be finished they would need to be running electric units there too, I can see capacity problems on the WCML between Wigan NW and Preston.

Shouldn't be a major problem with capacity should there? We've had Scottish, Barrow, & Preston/Blackpool services running via Wigan on a few occasions during engineering works over the last couple of years without any problems. There's also paths in the system for what look like training/stock testing (between Crewe and Carnforth) as well as presumably some spare planned capacity for the future Liverpool-Scotland TPE services.

 

[Starmill]

It all comes back to the DfT's insistence on 2tph from York to both Liverpool and Manchester Airport. Exactly the same reasons that Hull's service to Leeds and Manchester gets ridiculously downgraded.

This. In particular the case of a tender requirement for two services an hour to Manchester Airport from all of Huddersfield, Leeds and York.

Why one is not sufficient, with the other journey opportunities with a single change, I do not understand. Leeds will have a third (probably overtaken admittedly, but still direct) train in each hour.

Indeed and the XC will be right behind it and one could delay the other and so on.

Also of note 2 x CrossCountry trains per hour to stop at Macclesfield from May.

The Stoke-Blackpool is Mornings, Evenings and Sunday only, not Off Peak.

On present reading of the timetable, this extra 2 services per hour has a very significant effect on Macclesfield's service. There is almost metro service at one point in the evening:

1702 Manchester Picc XC
1706 Manchester Picc VT
1720 Manchester Picc NT
1737 Manchester Picc XC
1741 Manchester Picc VT
1750 Blackpool North NT

all from Macclesfield!!

One might speculate that XC have introduced additional calls at Macclesfield in order to mitigate the reallocation of Macclesfield <> Manchester revenues toward Northern when they increase the number of services they run.

On Saturdays there is a 21:11 and 22:11 to Man Airport

Along with the Sunday morning improvements this is fantastic - and a great many years overdue.

Weekday evenings the 1926 Cleethorpes to Sheffield is extended to Manchester Piccadilly, which fills a gap of almost 2 hours at present and is also long overdue an improvement.

I am surprised indeed that the new late Hope Valley stopper is quite so late as 2327.

 

[jamieintercity]

More new scotrail services starting in May:

an hourly Montrose to Aberdeen calling all stops between the 2 stations
An half hourly Glasgow to Edinburgh via Cumbernauld/Falkirk grahamston (the half hourly Edinburgh to dunblane runs non stop between Edinburgh park/haymarket and Falkirk grahamston)

 

[Halish Railway]

More new scotrail services starting in May:

an hourly Montrose to Aberdeen calling all stops between the 2 stations
An half hourly Glasgow to Edinburgh via Cumbernauld/Falkirk grahamston (the half hourly Edinburgh to dunblane runs non stop between Edinburgh park/haymarket and Falkirk grahamston)

Well that's punctuality completely thrown out of the window, I envisage a lot of conflict at Newbridge Junction and fast trains being stuck behind slower ones.

Newbridge Jn at Rush Hour - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/NWBG/2018/05/21/1730?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Well that's punctuality completely thrown out of the window, I envisage a lot of conflict at Newbridge Junction and fast trains being stuck behind slower ones.

Newbridge Jn at Rush Hour - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/NWBG/2018/05/21/1730?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Surely if there was a threat to punctuality ScotRail wouldn't have run with it, and there are only four trains of those trains that create a conflict anyway. Looking at a line up at Linlithgow around the same time, the new services appear to fill what is an existing 'gap' in the timetable, namely at 1711 between the existing 1706 and 1718 heading west and at 1751 between the existing 1746 and 1804 heading east. There appears to be a touch of flighting about existing stopping and fast services which looks to continue into the May 18 timetable too.

 

[Class 170101]

I would think there is more of a risk the wires not being ready for May between Cumbernauld and Polmont. The trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh via this route and via Falkirk High are timed as Class 385s. Will a Class 158 / Class 170 keep up if the wires aren't ready? (or the Class 385s come to that?)

 

[ScotGG]

Thank you. That ties in with the Southeastern May 2018 consultation timetables. Do you think we can assume that the calling pattern is finalised - i.e. all stations from London Bridge to Rainham save for Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith?

Surely they will alter drafts and have all stops for Thameslink services. The planned housing makes it the right thing to do. Slipping Erith makes no sense given housing is planned directly next to the station including new access routes just as they reduce services...

 

[Starmill]

Surely if there was a threat to punctuality ScotRail wouldn't have run with it, and there are only four trains of those trains that create a conflict anyway. Looking at a line up at Linlithgow around the same time, the new services appear to fill what is an existing 'gap' in the timetable, namely at 1711 between the existing 1706 and 1718 heading west and at 1751 between the existing 1746 and 1804 heading east. There appears to be a touch of flighting about existing stopping and fast services which looks to continue into the May 18 timetable too.

It is an immense improvement which has happened more speedily than I would have thought. Well done to them.

The only thing that surprises me is that as both services from Cumbernauld are continuing to Edinburgh, both services from Stirling run fast between Edinburgh Park and Falkirk Grahamston. I hope not many people travel between Linlighow or Polmont and Stirling...

I also question the need for all of those trains to call at Camelon - 4tph seems like an awful lot for stations so close together.

 

[AlanFry1]

Amsterdam services on Eurostar

 

[Barn]

Surely they will alter drafts and have all stops for Thameslink services. The planned housing makes it the right thing to do. Slipping Erith makes no sense given housing is planned directly next to the station including new access routes just as they reduce services...

Southeastern are planning 6tph at Erith from May, which maintains its current service. The Cannon Street services fall to 4tph, but they are stopping their Charing Cross services there. I suspect that the South Eastern franchise bidders might voluntarily bid 6tph rather than the minimum required 4tph so long as this buys them some Brownie points in the evaluation.

I'm not sure Thameslink will call, though, because the core timings and rolling stock allocation must be pretty locked down by now?

 

[DenmarkRail]

What happened to LNWR's plan to reopen either Barlaston or Wedgewood? Is this in the new timetable?

 

[Muzer]

What happened to LNWR's plan to reopen either Barlaston or Wedgewood? Is this in the new timetable?

Wasn't a plan, it was a requirement that the franchise bidders price an option for doing so - that is, decide how much they would charge the DfT if they decided they wanted it to happen. The DfT don't have to take up said option, and so far (correct me if I'm wrong, someone) I don't believe there's been any indication that they'd be inclined to do so.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Ah okay, I also notice that Stafford gets an increased presence of Virgin Services in the evening peak, adding Blackpool, and a few other destinations. Nothing significant though. Also I see that Liverpool to London is ending (LNWR) being replaced by Liverpool to New Street, and Crewe to London takes on the remaining (LNWR).

Was there a plan to divert the services which go via Stone via Birmingham while en route to London?