Masks again

[Darandio]

just follow the rules, we are all in this together.

Putting masks aside for a moment the last 18 months should have made it abundantly clear we aren't all in this together. Just look at our representatives that have pushed such statements, they aren't with you one bit.

 

[takno]

I'm... surprised. I'm very surprised that I'm seeing such a level of "not doing it" stance on here, of all places. I caught Covid at the start of the year, and it sucked. And one of my neighbours died from it.

Masks, when fitted correctly and adhered to by enough people, work. That's why, despite being double jabbed, despite having caught it previously, I still make the effort of the 5-10 seconds required to hook a snug-fitted covering to my face before going into a badly-ventilated store, or a busy train. Because people have died from this - people I care about, and the least I can do for their memory is to put up with a mild inconvenience if it saves others.

It's not just about protecting you - just like the vaccines. If you catch it and survive? Fine. If you pass it to someone else and they die? That's on you. If you have to be hospitalised because you didn't take the necessary preventative measures, taking a bed away from someone else? That's on you.

And those of you who are planning to fake exemptions? Well, a close family friend is an experienced GP and they've debunked the "asthma makes you exempt" claim, because asthma actually makes you one of the "clinically vulnerable" - so if you can't mask up, you should actually be shielding and staying at home.

I'm sorry, but I'm just a bit disappointed. I genuinely thought better of people. Do I like wearing a face covering? Well, no. Not really. But this is the world we live in now. So please stop making excuses, stop saying "Well the PM doesn't bother so why should I?" and just be a better example.

I'm sorry that one of your neighbours died. A lot of people have died in the last 18 months though, and the cast majority of them didn't die from Covid. It's not a fun illness to have if you become symptomatic, but then very few of them are.

None of that however has any impact on how completely wrong you are about masks. They barely help to protect the wearer, and essentially don't help at all to protect anybody else. They may be almost no trouble at all to you, but other people don't find that to be the case at all. Doing something that's quite a lot of trouble in order to achieve nothing doesn't have quite the same altruistic appeal to be honest.

I'm sure some trite irrelevant comments backed by no evidence from a close family GP friend is enough in your eyes to "debunk" exemptions, but those of us that don't have asthma and never said we did might have some follow-up questions. The asthma sufferers might have some too, since asthma has proved to be a rather less important co-morbidity than was initially assumed.

At the end of the day I "thought better" of a lot of people. I thought more people could read and understand science. I thought more people were able to spot shifty psychopaths and authoritarians in positions of power. I guess we've all learned a valuable lesson about each other.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Just look at our representatives that have pushed such statements, they aren't with you one bit.

*coughhandcockcough*

 

[alex397]

And? Yorkie is correct in his statement, if you don't like it somewhere, you attempt to move. You don't sit there, doing nothing and complaining about where you live. Perhaps @Berliner would like to move to one of the bastions of selflessness they mentioned that is Japan. Enjoy being a foreigner there and doing something as simple as renting a house.

No, I don’t think Yorkie is correct in saying that to people.

If we go to the Brexiteers v Remainers argument, some Brexiteers say that Remainers should move to the EU if they love it so much and don’t like what the UK has done. Sure, some have done so and will want to, but many Remainers like the UK and want it to be better - that’s not necessarily ‘complaining’ but it’s fighting for change.

To me it is similar with the argument from Berliner. He thinks some aspects of our society is selfish, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he dislikes the UK as a whole. Rather than moving to another country, you can fight for change to improve that country.

If I used the argument that you should just move, I’d suggest people who don’t like the UK restrictions should move elsewhere to somewhere with less restrictions.

 

[Yew]

Masks, when fitted correctly and adhered to by enough people, work.

To Quote Prof Robert Dingwall, recently of the Governments New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threat Group (NERVTAG):

You do not need to follow the debate among statisticians to recognize that what the Bangladesh trial has established is that we have strong (RCT) evidence that the benefit from masks in the community is either nil or minimal. For policy, it doesn't really matter which.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

And how long, may I ask, do you intend to do this for ?

As long as society deems it necessary. I know about as much as you do on how long this is going to last.

I don't think you can take this forum section as representative of the rail community as a whole, or even of RailUK.

This section of the forum is populated almost exclusively by those who take the view that virtually all public health measure against COVID do more harm than good, and are unecessary, and who stridently assert that others are not entitled to their opinion. Anyone who dares to express a contrary opinion can expect to be insulted, told to emigrate, accused of being a work-shy couch potato who enjoys the benefits of lockdowns, or a callous authoritarian. No wonder everyone has given up and left.

Everything in balance, right? It's why, for example, now they're saying "You don't need to mask up inside a place of hospitality because that's kinda pointless" which I think is a fair adjustment. I did think it was a bit silly that you had to cover up whilst moving around a restaurant for 20 seconds, only to be sat down without a mask for an hour in the same room.

None of that however has any impact on how completely wrong you are about masks. They barely help to protect the wearer, and essentially don't help at all to protect anybody else. They may be almost no trouble at all to you, but other people don't find that to be the case at all. Doing something that's quite a lot of trouble in order to achieve nothing doesn't have quite the same altruistic appeal to be honest.

If one person wearing a (correctly fitted) mask reduces airborne transmission by 50%, and you have two people wearing masks (a potential transmitter and a potential recipient), 50% x 50% results in an approximate reduction in transmission by about 75%. I'm definitely oversimplifying things bit here, but there are plenty of studies out there for your reading pleasure that may have slightly different numbers, but agree that, when combined with other measures such as testing and vaccinations, is just one effective tool in an arsenal of weapons we have against Covid.

It's really not a lot of trouble if everyone just gets on with it. If someone really cannot wear a covering, say, because they have Fibromyalgia (actually a valid exemption reason in my book), then they rely on others like myself to reduce the rate of transmission as much as possible.

This may just be one of those areas where we're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Yew]

No, I don’t think Yorkie is correct in saying that to people.

If we go to the Brexiteers v Remainers argument, some Brexiteers say that Remainers should move to the EU if they love it so much and don’t like what the UK has done. Sure, some have done so and will want to, but many Remainers like the UK and want it to be better - that’s not necessarily ‘complaining’ but it’s fighting for change.

If we go to the Brexiteers v Remainers argument,

Cor, Masks and Brexit in the same thread!

 

[Annetts key]

If the government decreed that everyone must wear a head covering, which could be a hat from a Christmas cracker, to protect against falling asteroids, would you wear one, or question it?

Err, we already have a requirement for certain staff to wear a hard hat on their heads even when there is absolutely nothing above said staff apart from the atmosphere…

 

[LOL The Irony]

He thinks some aspects of our society is selfish

Good, we should be more selfish. Using his example of Japan, they expect you to work yourself to death or suicide there.

If I used the argument that you should just move, I’d suggest people who don’t like the UK restrictions should move elsewhere to somewhere with less restrictions.

I would say sign me up, but there are very few places with such little restrictions and low covid rates.

 

[takno]

No, I don’t think Yorkie is correct in saying that to people.

If we go to the Brexiteers v Remainers argument, some Brexiteers say that Remainers should move to the EU if they love it so much and don’t like what the UK has done. Sure, some have done so and will want to, but many Remainers like the UK and want it to be better - that’s not necessarily ‘complaining’ but it’s fighting for change.

To me it is similar with the argument from Berliner. He thinks some aspects of our society is selfish, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he dislikes the UK as a whole. Rather than moving to another country, you can fight for change to improve that country.

If I used the argument that you should just move, I’d suggest people who don’t like the UK restrictions should move elsewhere to somewhere with less restrictions.

For what it's worth I'm finding this line a bit disturbing as well. I haven't read Berliner's posts which have triggered the response, but I get the feeling that he's successfully baiting people into reactions they might not be proud of in the cold light of day.

 

[Yew]

If one person wearing a (correctly fitted) mask reduces airborne transmission by 50%, and you have two people wearing masks (a potential transmitter and a potential recipient), 50% x 50% results in an approximate reduction in transmission by about 75%. I'm definitely oversimplifying things bit here, but there are plenty of studies out there for your reading pleasure that may have slightly different numbers, but agree that, when combined with other measures such as testing and vaccinations, is just one effective tool in an arsenal of weapons we have against Covid.

That is a rather big if, and certainly is not consistent with any randomised control trials (all of which have seethe effectiveness to be insidtinguisable from the confidence interval of the experiment), nor of the practical experience of most countries that have dabbled with masks.

As long as society deems it necessary. I know about as much as you do on how long this is going to last.

And perhaps we are seeing society, rather that Prof Whitty, deeming it unnecessary?

 

[yorksrob]

As long as society deems it necessary. I know about as much as you do on how long this is going to last.

Everything in balance, right? It's why, for example, now they're saying "You don't need to mask up inside a place of hospitality because that's kinda pointless" which I think is a fair adjustment. I did think it was a bit silly that you had to cover up whilst moving around a restaurant for 20 seconds, only to be sat down without a mask for an hour in the same room.


If one person wearing a (correctly fitted) mask reduces airborne transmission by 50%, and you have two people wearing masks (a potential transmitter and a potential recipient), 50% x 50% results in an approximate reduction in transmission by about 75%. I'm definitely oversimplifying things bit here, but there are plenty of studies out there for your reading pleasure that may have slightly different numbers, but agree that, when combined with other measures such as testing and vaccinations, is just one effective tool in an arsenal of weapons we have against Covid.

It's really not a lot of trouble if everyone just gets on with it. If someone really cannot wear a covering, say, because they have Fibromyalgia (actually a valid exemption reason in my book), then they rely on others like myself to reduce the rate of transmission as much as possible.

This may just be one of those areas where we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm afraid that that's rather too much of an open ended commitment for me.

Don't get me wrong, I thought that face coverings were fine as a precautionary measure, when we didn't know what we were dealing with and there were no vaccines. Now is not 2019 though.

 

[adc82140]

Err, we already have a requirement for certain staff to wear a hard hat on their heads even when there is absolutely nothing above said staff apart from the atmosphere…

That's a hard hat requirement. Not a head covering requirement. From personal experience walloping your head on an RSJ is a lot more tolerable wearing a hard hat, but I'm not sure how I'd have fared if I'd have worn a party hat from a cracker instead.

 

[takno]

If one person wearing a (correctly fitted) mask reduces airborne transmission by 50%, and you have two people wearing masks (a potential transmitter and a potential recipient), 50% x 50% results in an approximate reduction in transmission by about 75%. I'm definitely oversimplifying things bit here, but there are plenty of studies out there for your reading pleasure that may have slightly different numbers, but agree that, when combined with other measures such as testing and vaccinations, is just one effective tool in an arsenal of weapons we have against Covid.

It's really not a lot of trouble if everyone just gets on with it. If someone really cannot wear a covering, say, because they have Fibromyalgia (actually a valid exemption reason in my book), then they rely on others like myself to reduce the rate of transmission as much as possible.

This may just be one of those areas where we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Correctly fitted masks don't reduce airborne transmission by 50%, and I haven't read a single recent study that even attempts to claim they do. Suggesting that you can multiply up the made-up 50%s is close to absurd.

When you say it's "really not a lot of trouble" all you are doing is adding the word "really" into your previous statement. You were wrong before, and now you are emphatically wrong. Your experience of mask wearing is not a universal experience. Furthermore you reference your "book" when judging what counts as a valid exemption - why do you get to sit on high deciding whose exemption is good or bad?

 

[Annetts key]

That's a hard hat requirement. Not a head covering requirement. From personal experience walloping your head on an RSJ is a lot more tolerable wearing a hard hat, but I'm not sure how I'd have fared if I'd have worn a party hat from a cracker instead.

If there is absolutely nothing above you, no structure of any kind, it does not make any difference if you have no hat, a paper hat out of a Christmas cracker or a proper hard hat. There is nothing to hit your head on and nothing to fall on you (apart from maybe something from an aircraft). But the requirement is that a hard hat is worn at all times for the staff that I was talking about.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I haven't read Berliner's posts which have triggered the response, but I get the feeling that he's successfully baiting people into reactions they might not be proud of in the cold light of day.

I have meant and still mean everything I have said so far. My problem with Berliner is that he is using mask and restriction compliance to judge how selfish or selfless a country is, which will always result in skewed results.

 

[yorkie]

I'm... surprised. I'm very surprised that I'm seeing such a level of "not doing it" stance on here, of all places. I caught Covid at the start of the year, and it sucked. And one of my neighbours died from it.

I'm surprised and disappointed at your stance.

Why are you so keen for others to wear flimsy masks?

What type of mask do you wear and do you war one in all settings where you may come into contact with other people?

I'm trying to understand your logic, so I'd you can answer these questions I will see if your stance makes sense.

Masks, when fitted correctly and adhered to by enough people, work.

Yes right fitting FFP3 masks do prevent virus transmission. But is it feasible to make everyone wear one? And for what purpose? How long for? You'd have to ban eating and drinking in public to prevent transmission.

That's why, despite being double jabbed, despite having caught it previously, I still make the effort of the 5-10 seconds required to hook a snug-fitted covering to my face before going into a badly-ventilated store, or a busy train.

That's your choice but others are entitled to a different choice. Some of us actually trust vaccines you know!

Because people have died from this - people I care about, and the least I can do for their memory is to put up with a mild inconvenience if it saves others.

The idea that wearing a mask is done to commemorate the memory of people who died is utterly absurd. It's not a logical, scientific argument. Do you apply this in all settings and avoid pubs and restaurants?

If you are selective about the places you do this then it's surely nothing more than virtue signalling.

It's not just about protecting you - just like the vaccines. If you catch it and survive? Fine. If you pass it to someone else and they die? That's on you.

Not it's not. This is absurd. We can never eliminate this virus, nor other Coronaviruses, Rhinoviruses and influenza viruses. It's on each individual to choose whether or not to protect themselves with vaccines, and - I'd they distrust vaccines - they could go further and wear an effective tight fitting mask that protects themselves.

The idea that people should be made to wear flimsy masks ostensibly to protect others is nonsensical.

If you have to be hospitalised because you didn't take the necessary preventative measures, taking a bed away from someone else? That's on you.

Nonsense; flimsy masks are not a preventative measure. Someone who distrusts the vaccine can wear an FFP3 to prevent transmission but they would have to wear one at all times in proximity to others to be sure of avoiding transmission. Any individual can choose to do that, if they wish.

And those of you who are planning to fake exemptions? Well, a close family friend is an experienced GP and they've debunked the "asthma makes you exempt" claim, because asthma actually makes you one of the "clinically vulnerable" - so if you can't mask up, you should actually be shielding and staying at home.

Nonsense. The rules are the rules and they allow a wide range of exemptions whether you like it or not. This means anyone can choose not to wear a mask for any of the reasons given, this includes if it is difficult to wear a mask or if doing so causes stress or anxiety. You will just have to lump it.

I'm sorry, but I'm just a bit disappointed. I genuinely thought better of people.

I am genuinely disappointed as I thought better of you.

Do I like wearing a face covering? Well, no. Not really. But this is the world we live in now. So please stop making excuses, stop saying "Well the PM doesn't bother so why should I?" and just be a better example.

You need to be a better example yourself and start thinking about others.

Putting masks aside for a moment the last 18 months should have made it abundantly clear we aren't all in this together. Just look at our representatives that have pushed such statements, they aren't with you one bit.

Absolutely

No, I don’t think Yorkie is correct in saying that to people.

On the contrary, you are incorrect.

I'd you go on about hating our culture, why continue to love here?

If we go to the Brexiteers v Remainers argument, some Brexiteers say that Remainers should move to the EU if they love it so much and don’t like what the UK has done. Sure, some have done so and will want to, but many Remainers like the UK and want it to be better - that’s not necessarily ‘complaining’ but it’s fighting for change.

Fighting to be more European is hardly the same as fighting to be more like Japanese society.

This is yet another false equivalence from the pro-mask camp.

To me it is similar with the argument from Berliner. He thinks some aspects of our society is selfish, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he dislikes the UK as a whole. Rather than moving to another country, you can fight for change to improve that country.

And you think Japanese culture and intolerance and authoritarianism are improvements? I'd be prepared to fight against that in whatever means are necessary.

If I used the argument that you should just move, I’d suggest people who don’t like the UK restrictions should move elsewhere to somewhere with less restrictions.

Again a false equivalence.

 

[Yew]

Correctly fitted masks don't reduce airborne transmission by 50%, and I haven't read a single recent study that even attempts to claim they do. Suggesting that you can multiply up the made-up 50%s is close to absurd.

As some content, the data from the Bangladesh Trial found that in a study of over 340,000 individuals from 300 villages, and a period of 8 weeks, the masked control groups had 20 fewer cases compared to the control.

 

[adc82140]

If there is absolutely nothing above you, no structure of any kind, it does not make any difference if you have no hat, a paper hat out of a Christmas cracker or a proper hard hat. There is nothing to hit your head on and nothing to fall on you (apart from maybe something from an aircraft). But the requirement is that a hard hat is worn at all times for the staff that I was talking about.

That's not my argument. A hard hat rule is a hard hat rule. It protects your head. There's no denying it. You have to wear the right type of headgear. It's not a wishy washy "head covering" rule. If there was suddenly the insistence that everyone wore a FFP3 mask, properly fitted, l wouldn't be able to argue against it, in the same way that builders on a site can't for a hard hat rule.

 

[Yew]

If there is absolutely nothing above you, no structure of any kind, it does not make any difference if you have no hat, a paper hat out of a Christmas cracker or a proper hard hat. There is nothing to hit your head on and nothing to fall on you (apart from maybe something from an aircraft). But the requirement is that a hard hat is worn at all times for the staff that I was talking about.

If you find it so objectionable you could either ask for a more comfortable hat, that still provides protection, or find a job at a similar company with a more relaxed attitude; something achievable without having to uproot your life.

Unfortunately there are no comfortable and effective masks, and these rules apply to the whole country.

 

[DustyBin]

And perhaps we are seeing society, rather that Prof Whitty, deeming it unnecessary?

I was going to make exactly the same point. Society has not deemed it necessary. Some sections of society are willing to go along with the crackpot ideas and pseudoscience of Whitty et al as it’s the path of least resistance, but that’s very different to society deeming it necessary.

 

[Yew]

You could also engage in a conversation with your health and safety people, and perhaps amend the terms, to say, only when you're within 5m of people working at height, or a building under construction. Whereas mask rules would apply on a completely empty train.

 

[Pete_uk]

Sorry, found one

 

[adc82140]

Asking for a friend, what's the best place to get a sunflower lanard with a clear card bit at the bottom? I've seen some on a web site that looks official but not reall sure whats needed.

Thanks in advance.

There is no "official" one, because there is no requirement to have one for exemptions. If your friend chooses to wear one, any supplier will do.

 

[Annetts key]

That's not my argument. A hard hat rule is a hard hat rule. It protects your head. There's no denying it. You have to wear the right type of headgear. It's not a wishy washy "head covering" rule. If there was suddenly the insistence that everyone wore a FFP3 mask, properly fitted, l wouldn't be able to argue against it, in the same way that builders on a site can't for a hard hat rule.

The group of staff I’m talking about are not in the building trade. And yes, they now have slightly more comfortable types. But it still gets uncomfortable on a hot sunny day. And if they don’t use a chin strap, if you look down, while bending down, the hat falls off.
Hence most of the staff don’t see the point. That’s where the parallel is.

I agree that any mandatory face covering should comply with a suitable standard, and that standard should be fit for purpose.

 

[bramling]

I see “Saj” has indeed appeared, and masks are so we can “enjoy Christmas with our families”.

What a disgusting piece of passive-aggressive threatening manipulation. The more this goes on the more it resembles an abusive relationship. Threats and false promises.

“Saj” can do one.

 

[43066]

I see “Saj” has indeed appeared, and masks are so we can “enjoy Christmas with our families”.

What a disgusting piece of passive-aggressive threatening manipulation. The more this goes on the more it resembles an abusive relationship. Threats and false promises.

“Saj” can do one.

I’d far rather have “Saj” at the helm than his predecessor, under whom we would no doubt how be looking at WFH being brought back and a raft of other restrictive measures (but he can absolutely do one as far as masks are concerned!).

 

[DustyBin]

I see “Saj” has indeed appeared, and masks are so we can “enjoy Christmas with our families”.

What a disgusting piece of manipulation. The more this goes on the more it resembles an abusive relationship. Threats and false promises.

“Saj” can do one.

And yet still some people can’t, or refuse to, see it.

I suspect they’re the same people who would hand over a large sum of money to a cold caller offering to rebuild their perfectly stable garden wall “in case it falls on a child”. I mean, better safe than sorry right? A con artists dream……

 

[Eyersey468]

I see “Saj” has indeed appeared, and masks are so we can “enjoy Christmas with our families”.

What a disgusting piece of passive-aggressive threatening manipulation. The more this goes on the more it resembles an abusive relationship. Threats and false promises.

“Saj” can do one.

I agree it is disgusting. I am sick of the lies, threats, false promises and hypocrisy. The chance of me voting for any of the main political parties for the foreseeable future is zero, and that may well turn into never

 

[Ediswan]

As some content, the data from the Bangladesh Trial found that in a study of over 340,000 individuals from 300 villages, and a period of 8 weeks, the masked control groups had 20 fewer cases compared to the control.

This does look a lot more like 'proper science' rather than dubious meta-analyses. Here is a link to the full paper:

https://www.poverty-action.org/site...ions/Mask_Second_Stage_Paper_20211108.pdf.pdf