• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Masks again

Status
Not open for further replies.

NorthKent1989

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2017
Messages
2,168
I have continued to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I am not sure how much it protects me but I do it out of courtesy to others. Get a grip everyone and just follow the rules, we are all in this together.

Oh boy…. In this together are we? I’m expecting Santa to pop by too this December.

We have never been ‘in this together’ did you not see the G7 summit where all the world leaders were walking around massless, not quarantining, not social distancing, yes that’s really displaying being in this together isn’t it.

We’ve had two years of this complete farce, and yes it is farcical that children have been starving for years, mental health and illness has risen to worrying levels, but along comes a virus with a 99.5% survival rate and everyone literally loses their minds and demands freedoms should be lost to combat this oh so dangerous flu.

The very fact that you wear a mask even though you aren’t even sure if it works but basically wear to virtue signal is very telling.

How about telling the pro mask/restrictions crowd to get a grip and deal with Covid as it’s not going anywhere
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Kez

Member
Joined
8 May 2021
Messages
73
Location
Scotland
Blimey, reading all this talk of rebellion and non-compliance on simple face coverings, I'll be expecting the rule of Britain by over-privileged posh boys to be in its last days as the sleeping giant of the rail enthusiast community mobilises and rises to assert its demands for social justice.
 

Sebastian O

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2015
Messages
164
Well I for one am in a pretty bad way this morning.

This means any chance of going back to the office, and therefore any social contact, is off until at least next Spring and the prospect of going back to masks in shops and transport is just absolutely terrible - There is absolutely no evidence that they do any good whatsoever in those settings and you are harming people and the economy for no gain - Any public health measure should only be taken where there is rock-solid evidence which is certainly not the case here.

And as for "3 Weeks" - If anybody actually believes that then I have a exciting business opportunity in Nigeria to tell you about. There is no chance at all of any of these measures being rescinded before April.

I also feel for the Travel industry that is once again going to be decimated and seemingly without any support (forgive me if I have missed that)

ENOUGH - We can't take it anymore!
Face masks have been proven in a systematic review to have considerable reducing effects in transmission of C19. With quite some clinical and statistical significance.


 

NorthKent1989

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2017
Messages
2,168
Blimey, reading all this talk of rebellion and non-compliance on simple face coverings, I'll be expecting the rule of Britain by over-privileged posh boys to be in its last days as the sleeping giant of the rail enthusiast community mobilises and rises to assert its demands for social justice.

Its not just about masks, it’s about Covid being milked dry and continued unnecessarily
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
Lady on LBC at the moment from South Africa, think she was the Health Minister or similar, saying Omicron is less virulent and less deadly. What a shock.
 

brick60000

Member
Joined
18 Apr 2013
Messages
461
I’m sorry if I’ve missed this, haven’t read all 13 pages.

Can somebody give a good reason why they will not be required in hospitality? In particular clubs, pubs, restaurants? Thank goodness they aren’t - but yet again public transport is victimised because it’s apparently more dangerous than everywhere else.
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
I’m sorry if I’ve missed this, haven’t read all 13 pages.

Can somebody give a good reason why they will not be required in hospitality? In particular clubs, pubs, restaurants? Thank goodness they aren’t - but yet again public transport is victimised because it’s apparently more dangerous than everywhere else.
Because the Prime Minister is desperate to be seen to be doing something, to try and bolster waning polls. He is on a hiding to nothing, as nobody cares anymore.

And the woman who effectively manages this in South Africa, Dr Goetzee (?), has just said on LBC it’s not vaccine resistant, and it’s less virulent than Delta, and causes even milder illness. BoJo better sit up.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,744
I agree. There’s a section of society who seem to believe the UK is a uniquely terrible place, the cause of all suffering and the villain of the piece on the world stage. Why I have no idea. Brexit maybe? Or perhaps these people have overdosed on the self-loathing, virtue-signalling drivel found in the Guardian.

We’re not perfect by any means, but (shock horror) nor is anywhere else.

Indeed. I used to fall victim to this kind of thinking when I was younger. I had an obsession with moving to Canada, as that seemed like a utopia to me. So I got a year working visa for there, and after that year I was yearning to come home. I just couldn't put up with living in a country that seemed to think it was perfect, but actually the very opposite, and it was quite restrictive at times.

I love visiting there, but ideas of living there have long gone. And seeing what Canada has become in the last year or two makes me very glad I didn't make that move.

I do think everybody should live in another country for a bit, partly to see other world views, but also to realise the UK isn't so bad after all.
 

Bungle73

On Moderation
Joined
19 Aug 2011
Messages
3,216
Location
Kent
Face masks have been proven in a systematic review to have considerable reducing effects in transmission of C19. With quite some clinical and statistical significance.


That is not what has been seen though is it.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,210
Location
UK
And as for "3 Weeks" - If anybody actually believes that then I have a exciting business opportunity in Nigeria to tell you about. There is no chance at all of any of these measures being rescinded before April.
What are restrictions like in Nigeria, do you need a local Operations Manager? :D
 

Tomp94

Member
Joined
9 May 2019
Messages
199
I’m sorry if I’ve missed this, haven’t read all 13 pages.

Can somebody give a good reason why they will not be required in hospitality? In particular clubs, pubs, restaurants? Thank goodness they aren’t - but yet again public transport is victimised because it’s apparently more dangerous than everywhere else.
It is proof the regime made a political rather than a scientific decision to re impose mandatory masks in shops and public transport, but not hospitality.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,210
Location
UK
That does not mean that the rules should be in place or that they have any merit - Any public health restriction should have absolute rock-solid evidence to support its introduction and a clear idea of what you think it will do and why.
indeed, once again we've fallen into the idea what we can just make up some interventions without evidence, and they'll work. Even worse, we're back on the whole 'three weeks and review' malarky, it should be three weeks and remove unless clear evidence is presented that they work, and are necessary.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
10,946
Location
London
My response to this is very much “meh” - I’ve been wearing them on London transport systems most of the time anyway and causes me no major issue. But at the same time most masks aren’t all that beneficial for the actual cause.

This is all a “something must be done” action and it’s pretty easy to implement - almost impossible to enforce though (just look at TfL where it’s been mandatory throughout).

Obviously some will be very against it (this forum very much so) and some will welcome it. But practically, I’m not sure there will be a measurable change in % of wearers.
 

Acfb

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
615
The mask move by Johnson could go either way for these by-election voters - what's worth remembering is Richard Tice is standing as the Reform UK candidate in that seat, and as he's someone very opposed to restrictions, he can now capitalise on this in the dying days of the campaign. Even if 15-20% of Tory supporters there don't like covid restrictions enough to vote for Tice that could swing the seat.


I wondered about this TBH. I think it's quite complex. It's true that the most visible proponents of masks are virtue signalling centrists and left wingers on twitter but there are also a lot of authoritarian and/or scared pensioners who obviously still wear or even support masks and who still loyally support the Conservatives. At the same time a lot of tory party members have more libertarian views on this issue.

Personally my own view is that Labour wouldn't necessarily have handled Covid much better in terms of outcomes but there wouldn't have been nepotism/corruption on stuff to do with covid test contracts etc

I could see the point of mandating FFP2/3 masks but this half hearted measure seems silly.
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,390
Location
Taunton or Kent
You need to "get a grip" yourself; it is NOT a courtesy to others. If you only wear a mask on public transport and in shops and yet go to restaurants and pubs unmasked, are you suggesting you are being discourteous in those settings? Your argument is nonsensical

If you are wearing an FFP2/3 mask which is tight fitting you are protecting yourself (and others in the event you are infected) but if it is a flimsy loose fitting mask you are wearing, these offer no protection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


There is no logic or scientific basis.

If it was based on science, a mask mandate would require tight-fitting FFP2/3 masks in all settings.

Indeed, cases appear to have already peaked; it is very important we recognise this now, so that pro-maskers are not able to erroneously attribute this to more mask-wearing.

View attachment 106219
(Image shows the 7 day case rate by specimen date, for the UK showing a slowdown in the increase in cases, which appears to be peaking around 21-22 November; data in text-readable form available from https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases )
If infections remained at a high level until February at the latest, then went into a marked decline back to very low levels, then it would be clear this is seasonal behaviour and no other measures will contain it as a result.

There is though the issue that if they don't go down, now this mandate is in place those in favour of masks could very easily claim it's because not enough people are wearing them.
 
Last edited:

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,744
Face masks have been proven in a systematic review to have considerable reducing effects in transmission of C19. With quite some clinical and statistical significance.




I came across a headline in the Guardian saying masks reduce the risk of COVID19 by 53%. Although lofty, this is still a lower number than the estimate offered by the CDC director on twitter of 80%. Interestingly, in the only published cluster RCT to date during COVID19, surgical masks had an 11% risk reduction and cloth masks had no effect at all on the primary endpoint of symptom driven lab positive results. That cluster RCT took place in a location with essentially no vaccination (aka circumstances which would give masks the best chance to show the best effect size).

The only other completed RCT during the pandemic, DANMASK was null as to the effect of surgical masks, and had been powered to detect a 50% reduction. At the time, many complained DANMASK was underpowered. Masks worked, but not that well, they argued. Yet, it appears now DANMASK was adequately powered if one is to believe the 53% estimate. So which is it? Was DANMASK adequately powered or not? Is 50% plausible or not?

Before you answer, let’s remember that even the authors of the 53% study write, “Risk of bias across the six studies ranged from moderate to serious or critical.” I never thought I would be wishing for ‘mild’!

With my colleagues Ian Liu and Jonathan Darrow, we performed a comprehensive assessment of all data for community masking during COVID19. Its a long review— 25,000 words— but I encourage you to read it. Despite what you hear on TikTok, there is no substitute for reading.

I think it is fairly clear that cloth masking— which remains the predominant recommendation during the pandemic (did any place on earth mandate any other mask?)— has at best weak, inconclusive data and no clear evidence of efficacy. At the same time, given the massive number of mask devotees, I have no doubt that non-randomized studies will find 53, 80, or even 90% efficacy. With enough analyses, we may even get 95%! But that won’t make any of them true.

Here is a thought experiment: Collect a set of non-randomized papers** on the efficacy of masking and a similar set on the efficacy of ivermectin (or hydroxychlorquine or vitamin d). Then ask a group of scientists to score them for scientific validity. I guarantee you: masking will defeat ivermectin. Then swap* the words “masking” and “ivermectin” on all the papers and ask another group of scientists to rate them. What do you think they will say? Then white-out the words “masking” & “ivermectin” and ask a third group to figure out which ones are ivermectin and which are masking. It won’t be pretty.

(*note: you may have to change more than the actual word to disguise it, but you get the idea).

(** note #2: all these studies are unreliable)

Scientists have lost any consistent standards for evidence appraisal. Non randomized data with dirty measures of exposure and unrealistic effect sizes should set off warning bells. Or, if you want to just believe in things, then go ahead, just believe in them, but don’t pretend you are following a consistent framework for evaluating evidence. And no need to publish papers that don’t prove anything or change anyone’s mind.

The truth is we should have run several cluster RCTs in western, high income nations. For kids, adults, in different settings, with variation in masking strategies. We didn’t do it for the same reason people RT the Guardian headline. Faith outpaced evidence when it comes to masks.

COVID19 has already resulted in Instagram censoring the Cochrane collaboration. And now masking has a 53% effect size— well, unless you are talking about DANMASK, which was underpowered, obviously. We might as well give up entirely; throw away evidence based medicine, rip up Sackett’s writings, and let the makers of the Impella tell us how well the product works. We can abolish the FDA while we are at it, and delete clinicaltrials.gov. Preregistration of RCT is a waste of time. Even RCTs are a waste of time. Scientific truth is just what people believe is true, and critical appraisal only applies to claims embraced by the other tribe or members of the other political party. Let’s call it: the new normal.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,927
Location
First Class
I have an idea that should keep everybody happy.

What we need is a dedicated Internet forum for pandemic enthusiasts. Somewhere they can post mask wearing selfies, chat to each other during self-imposed lockdowns, and deride the “normals” who just don’t get it. They could even meet up for a socially distanced drink occasionally, although I appreciate that may be a little risqué for some. It will provide them with somewhere to live out their pandemic fighting fantasies with like-minded individuals, and allow the rest of us to get on with our lives unhindered.

The only problem is that I have absolutely no idea how to build an Internet forum. Maybe @yorkie and our fantastic forum staff would like to turn my idea into reality? You’d be doing us a great service!
 

alex397

Established Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
2,028
Location
UK
False equivalence; I'm not moaning about our whole culture and way of life.
Neither was Berliner.

Telling someone to ‘move abroad’ if they don’t like certain things here is just like the arguement from Brexiteers about Remainers.

Statements like that are not exactly constructive to a debate are they?
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
2,036
Location
Liverpool
Blimey, reading all this talk of rebellion and non-compliance on simple face coverings, I'll be expecting the rule of Britain by over-privileged posh boys to be in its last days as the sleeping giant of the rail enthusiast community mobilises and rises to assert its demands for social justice.
Have you seen some of the comments on various newspaper sites in last 12 hours or so?

Don't tell me all those anti mask comments have all be posted by us rail enthusiasts.

Unlike last year people realise they have been conned by the government and their puppet master scientists and it is quite clear that significant numbers will now fail to conform to any future restrictions.

I myself refused to comply since day 1 and have survived despite predictions of my demise despite being non lockdown compliant, unmasked, unvaccinated.

Others complied, wore masks and had the two or three jabs and still they have still not reached the carrot of normality for complying.

You will now see those people joining forces with those that have have considered most governments' responses to be over the top.

This time I see mass dissent from Tuesday.
 
Joined
20 May 2009
Messages
330
Location
Bromley
I'm... surprised. I'm very surprised that I'm seeing such a level of "not doing it" stance on here, of all places. I caught Covid at the start of the year, and it sucked. And one of my neighbours died from it.

Masks, when fitted correctly and adhered to by enough people, work. That's why, despite being double jabbed, despite having caught it previously, I still make the effort of the 5-10 seconds required to hook a snug-fitted covering to my face before going into a badly-ventilated store, or a busy train. Because people have died from this - people I care about, and the least I can do for their memory is to put up with a mild inconvenience if it saves others.

It's not just about protecting you - just like the vaccines. If you catch it and survive? Fine. If you pass it to someone else and they die? That's on you. If you have to be hospitalised because you didn't take the necessary preventative measures, taking a bed away from someone else? That's on you.

And those of you who are planning to fake exemptions? Well, a close family friend is an experienced GP and they've debunked the "asthma makes you exempt" claim, because asthma actually makes you one of the "clinically vulnerable" - so if you can't mask up, you should actually be shielding and staying at home.

I'm sorry, but I'm just a bit disappointed. I genuinely thought better of people. Do I like wearing a face covering? Well, no. Not really. But this is the world we live in now. So please stop making excuses, stop saying "Well the PM doesn't bother so why should I?" and just be a better example.
 

adc82140

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
3,396
Have you seen some of the comments on various newspaper sites in last 12 hours or so?

Don't tell me all those anti mask comments have all be posted by us rail enthusiasts.
I am a member on a ferry enthusiast website. They seem to be rather anti restriction as well, although their ire is aimed more, for obvious reasons, at international travel rules.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm... surprised. I'm very surprised that I'm seeing such a level of "not doing it" stance on here, of all places. I caught Covid at the start of the year, and it sucked. And one of my neighbours died from it.

Masks, when fitted correctly and adhered to by enough people, work.
Yes, masks fitted properly do work. That would be masks in a hospital environment. Where you can wash your hands before and after touching it. Where you pull one out directly from a dispenser. Old rags from pockets do not work. Grubby old masks that look like they've been trodden on do not work.
 
Last edited:

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Telling someone to ‘move abroad’ if they don’t like certain things here is just like the arguement from Brexiteers about Remainers.
And? Yorkie is correct in his statement, if you don't like it somewhere, you attempt to move. You don't sit there, doing nothing and complaining about where you live. Perhaps @Berliner would like to move to one of the bastions of selflessness they mentioned that is Japan. Enjoy being a foreigner there and doing something as simple as renting a house.
 

Ediswan

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2012
Messages
3,415
Location
Stevenage
Face masks have been proven in a systematic review to have considerable reducing effects in transmission of C19. With quite some clinical and statistical significance.
It is worth noting Fig 2 'Risk of Bias' (in the studies being analysed). The risk from confounding factors is 'High' verging on 'Serious to critical'. The other causes of bias are mainly 'Moderate' to 'High'.
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
2,036
Location
Liverpool
I have continued to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I am not sure how much it protects me but I do it out of courtesy to others. Get a grip everyone and just follow the rules, we are all in this together.
But is it really a courtesy to others?

Do you not consider the feelings of those who find facemasks very threatening.

I don't have any known medical condition but I really dislike seeing people masked, it really stresses me out.

Last year was the first time in my 60+ years I have known people to wear masks.

I am sure others must feel the same.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,258
Location
Yorks
I'm... surprised. I'm very surprised that I'm seeing such a level of "not doing it" stance on here, of all places. I caught Covid at the start of the year, and it sucked. And one of my neighbours died from it.

Masks, when fitted correctly and adhered to by enough people, work. That's why, despite being double jabbed, despite having caught it previously, I still make the effort of the 5-10 seconds required to hook a snug-fitted covering to my face before going into a badly-ventilated store, or a busy train. Because people have died from this - people I care about, and the least I can do for their memory is to put up with a mild inconvenience if it saves others.

It's not just about protecting you - just like the vaccines. If you catch it and survive? Fine. If you pass it to someone else and they die? That's on you. If you have to be hospitalised because you didn't take the necessary preventative measures, taking a bed away from someone else? That's on you.

And those of you who are planning to fake exemptions? Well, a close family friend is an experienced GP and they've debunked the "asthma makes you exempt" claim, because asthma actually makes you one of the "clinically vulnerable" - so if you can't mask up, you should actually be shielding and staying at home.

I'm sorry, but I'm just a bit disappointed. I genuinely thought better of people. Do I like wearing a face covering? Well, no. Not really. But this is the world we live in now. So please stop making excuses, stop saying "Well the PM doesn't bother so why should I?" and just be a better example.

And how long, may I ask, do you intend to do this for ?
 

341o2

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
2,012
I’m sorry if I’ve missed this, haven’t read all 13 pages.

Can somebody give a good reason why they will not be required in hospitality? In particular clubs, pubs, restaurants? Thank goodness they aren’t - but yet again public transport is victimised because it’s apparently more dangerous than everywhere else.
My local pharmacy has insisted on mask wearing throught this year even after lockdown lifted. no mask, no service
There is a local shop where mask wearing is preferred, although I am not sure whether they would refuse service if you weren't wearing a mask
 

Fragezeichnen

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
433
Location
Somewhere
I'm... surprised. I'm very surprised that I'm seeing such a level of "not doing it" stance on here, of all places. I caught Covid at the start of the year, and it sucked. And one of my neighbours died from it.

I don't think you can take this forum section as representative of the rail community as a whole, or even of RailUK. Its not, in my experience representative of those I ecounter in my daily liffe.

This section of the forum is populated almost exclusively by those who take the view that virtually all public health measure against COVID do more harm than good, and are unecessary, and who stridently assert that others are not entitled to their opinion. Anyone who dares to express a contrary opinion can expect to be insulted, told to emigrate, accused of being a work-shy couch potato who enjoys the personal benefits of lockdowns, or a callous authoritarian. No wonder everyone has given up and left.
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
2,036
Location
Liverpool
If the rules said you had to push someone off a cliff, you wouldn’t do it just because it’s the rules would you? Blindly following the Government and not challenging the established norm is a terrible idea.
Well said.

When I was very young my mother gave me sound advice on more than one occasion when it came to risky situations - it was "Would you put your hand in the fire just because someone told you to or because they were doing it?" "Always stop and think before doing anything and then do what is right for you not what is right for them." Sound advice which I have applied a lot in the past 19 months or so.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top