Masks again

[Tracked]

Just look at the back and forth on both sides here. It's abundantly clear the rule and divide strategy works wonders.

I genuinely wonder if Boris would've brought masks back if he'd not had such a bad week

 

[Bantamzen]

In a few weeks, on the back of this mask thing, in order "to save Christmas". I have said that all along.

Japan is much less selfish than the UK when it comes to acting as a collective, as are places such as NZ, Taiwan, the Scandinavian countries, Finland, The Baltic states, Canada and even our closest neighbour Ireland. Again, based on my observations, as I have stated my opinion of the UK being selfish, is also based on. Sorry, I can't upload my observations here.

Nope, just do a bit of research into how Japanese culture deals with mental health & disability.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Still waiting for @Berliner to provide evidence that the whole of the U.K. is selfish beyond “just go by people on this forum”

It’s a very bold statement to make considering we are in fact one of the most giving nations on the planet.

Wanting to keep our freedoms isn’t selfish, perpetuating this “crisis” is selfish as those in favour of restrictions clearly don’t care about mental health declining this country.

 

[seagull]

Wanting to try and get back to "normal" as England did, for a longer period and with far fewer restrictions than many other countries managed, is the very opposite of selfish, given that by returning to normal we were giving small businesses, tourism, and the self-employed, the best chance of recovering from the pandemic's financial losses and of maintaining, not losing, their livelihoods.
Just locking down is not only the definition of insanity (repeating something that doesn't work in the hope of a different result) but the quickest road to ruin for a large number of the population.

 

[Smidster]

Well I for one am in a pretty bad way this morning.

This means any chance of going back to the office, and therefore any social contact, is off until at least next Spring and the prospect of going back to masks in shops and transport is just absolutely terrible - There is absolutely no evidence that they do any good whatsoever in those settings and you are harming people and the economy for no gain - Any public health measure should only be taken where there is rock-solid evidence which is certainly not the case here.

And as for "3 Weeks" - If anybody actually believes that then I have a exciting business opportunity in Nigeria to tell you about. There is no chance at all of any of these measures being rescinded before April.

I also feel for the Travel industry that is once again going to be decimated and seemingly without any support (forgive me if I have missed that)

ENOUGH - We can't take it anymore!

 

[Berliner]

Still waiting for @Berliner to provide evidence that the whole of the U.K. is selfish beyond “just go by people on this forum”

It’s a very bold statement to make considering we are in fact one of the most giving nations on the planet.

Wanting to keep our freedoms isn’t selfish, perpetuating this “crisis” is selfish as those in favour of restrictions clearly don’t care about mental health declining this country.

I never once stated the whole country was selfish, In fact I've stated the opposite on posts since then. I generalised based on things from this thread and and as I continue to state, on my observations of life here. I live here, have done my whole life, have lived all over the UK, so I am more than able and indeed totally free to comment on how I see my own society and country, just as you are entitled to disagree with me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, so this pile on I've had here is wholly unnecessary.

Nope, just do a bit of research into how Japanese culture deals with mental health & disability.

Don't need to. I'm well aware of it thanks, and I was, again, generalising. Japan fails in area where we do better but as a general observation, they care more about society as a whole compared to the UK. Quick example based on my own personal observations of extensive travels in Japan....walk down pretty much any Japanese street and you'll see no litter, no pavements blocked by parked cars, no one kicking off at shop staff about minor things in public (indeed to do so is heavily frowned upon), yet in the UK you see these things daily in abundance. This is what I'm getting at. In my view the UK is very much a country where people do what is best for them and not what is best for others and people here get so angry over the slightest inconvenience. You can quote things like we have donated xyz or funded this that or the other, as a country, and that's all well and good, but go to the supermarket and you'll see people using the disabled bay without a blue pass or kicking off about being asked to take a bag off an empty train seat when it's busy.

Once again, you are all basing it on the pandemic when I've said quite clearly several times I'm basing my OPINION (i.e. I have no scientific evidence for his, so keep asking but I can't provide any) on many things, mask use or the steps people take to avoid it when they have no reason to, are just contributing factors to that. I realise I've upset some of you who can't seem to comprehend why someone thinks or sees the country differently to you, so I do apologise, but I can't change what I have seen and experienced in the UK compared to other countries. I'm not out to convince anyone, each to their own, think what you like.

Anyway I'm not posting on this thread again nor will I bother checking it. If indeed England has vaccine passports by Christmas then I don't expect anyone to come and say sorry, I couldn't care less, I don't gloat when I'm right. If they don't have them then I'll admit now I was wrong in advance as this will be closed by then.

Enjoy your Sundays.

 

[yorksrob]

I never once stated the whole country was selfish, In fact I've stated the opposite on posts since then. I generalised based on things from this thread and and as I continue to state, on my observations of life here. I live here, have done my whole life, have lived all over the UK, so I am more than able and indeed totally free to comment on how I see my own society and country, just as you are entitled to disagree with me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, so this pile on I've had here is wholly unnecessary.



Don't need to. I'm well aware of it thanks, and I was, again, generalising. Japan fails in area where we do better but as a general observation, they care more about society as a whole compared to the UK. Quick example based on my own personal observations of extensive travels in Japan....walk down pretty much any Japanese street and you'll see no litter, no pavements blocked by parked cars, no one kicking off at shop staff about minor things in public (indeed to do so is heavily frowned upon), yet in the UK you see these things daily in abundance. This is what I'm getting at. In my view the UK is very much a country where people do what is best for them and not what is best for others and people here get so angry over the slightest inconvenience. You can quote things like we have donated xyz or funded this that or the other, as a country, and that's all well and good, but go to the supermarket and you'll see people using the disabled bay without a blue pass or kicking off about being asked to take a bag off an empty train seat when it's busy.

Once again, you are all basing it on the pandemic when I've said quite clearly several times I'm basing my OPINION (i.e. I have no scientific evidence for his, so keep asking but I can't provide any) on many things, mask use or the steps people take to avoid it when they have no reason to, are just contributing factors to that. I realise I've upset some of you who can't seem to comprehend why someone thinks or sees the country differently to you, so I do apologise, but I can't change what I have seen and experienced in the UK compared to other countries. I'm not out to convince anyone, each to their own, think what you like.

Anyway I'm not posting on this thread again nor will I bother checking it. If indeed England has vaccine passports by Christmas then I don't expect anyone to come and say sorry, I couldn't care less, I don't gloat when I'm right. If they don't have them then I'll admit now I was wrong in advance as this will be closed by then.

Enjoy your Sundays.

I admit that our discussion did get a bit heated yesterday, for which I apologize.

However, I still say that if you're going to claim the national moral high ground, it's reasonable for us to expect to be told what nation you're claiming it from.

 

[Bantamzen]

Don't need to. I'm well aware of it thanks, and I was, again, generalising. Japan fails in area where we do better but as a general observation, they care more about society as a whole compared to the UK. Quick example based on my own personal observations of extensive travels in Japan....walk down pretty much any Japanese street and you'll see no litter, no pavements blocked by parked cars, no one kicking off at shop staff about minor things in public (indeed to do so is heavily frowned upon), yet in the UK you see these things daily in abundance. This is what I'm getting at. In my view the UK is very much a country where people do what is best for them and not what is best for others and people here get so angry over the slightest inconvenience. You can quote things like we have donated xyz or funded this that or the other, as a country, and that's all well and good, but go to the supermarket and you'll see people using the disabled bay without a blue pass or kicking off about being asked to take a bag off an empty train seat when it's busy.

Once again, you are all basing it on the pandemic when I've said quite clearly several times I'm basing my OPINION (i.e. I have no scientific evidence for his, so keep asking but I can't provide any) on many things, mask use or the steps people take to avoid it when they have no reason to, are just contributing factors to that. I realise I've upset some of you who can't seem to comprehend why someone thinks or sees the country differently to you, so I do apologise, but I can't change what I have seen and experienced in the UK compared to other countries. I'm not out to convince anyone, each to their own, think what you like.

Anyway I'm not posting on this thread again nor will I bother checking it. If indeed England has vaccine passports by Christmas then I don't expect anyone to come and say sorry, I couldn't care less, I don't gloat when I'm right. If they don't have them then I'll admit now I was wrong in advance as this will be closed by then.

Enjoy your Sundays.

So the fact that the streets are cleaner, and that people don't have as many public disputes doesn't suddenly mean that the Japanese response is favourable. As I have already said, Japanese people wear masks when ill in the hope that they don't have to face the shame of not going to work. That's hardly an act of altruism is it?

 

[yorkie]

I never once stated the whole country was selfish, In fact I've stated the opposite on posts since then. I generalised based on things from this thread and and as I continue to state, on my observations of life here. I live here, have done my whole life, have lived all over the UK, so I am more than able and indeed totally free to comment on how I see my own society and country, just as you are entitled to disagree with me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, so this pile on I've had here is wholly unnecessary.

I'd you don't like it here, why don't you move abroad?

And you never answered my question about Sweden; Do you think it's a selfish place because people don't wear masks there?

Is the UK selfish because we care about people with medical conditions, mental health, anxieties, disabilities and more?

Don't need to. I'm well aware of it thanks, and I was, again, generalising.

You do a lot of that, and rather inaccurately.

Japan fails in area where we do better but as a general observation, they care more about society as a whole compared to the UK.

To the point where suicides are rife and people feel compelled to come into work when ill, but is that really desirable?

Quick example based on my own personal observations of extensive travels in Japan....walk down pretty much any Japanese street and you'll see no litter, no pavements blocked by parked cars, no one kicking off at shop staff about minor things in public (indeed to do so is heavily frowned upon), yet in the UK you see these things daily in abundance. This is what I'm getting at.

But you are picking and choosing and I don't see how any of this has got to do with masks. Is Japan such a tolerant place for people who are of minority backgrounds? Is it a place that embraces diversity?

The aspects you don't like about our mask policy is the lack of authoritarianism; the fact we make allowances for people who find wearing a mask difficult or distressing.

You don't like our tolerance and inclusivity in this area, is that right?

Comparing it to littering is not a relevant or valid comparison.

In my view the UK is very much a country where people do what is best for them and not what is best for others

This isn't true and I really wish people like you who hate our way of life would just go and live elsewhere.

and people here get so angry over the slightest inconvenience.

We fight for our rights, you mean. And rightly so.

You can quote things like we have donated xyz or funded this that or the other, as a country, and that's all well and good, but go to the supermarket and you'll see people using the disabled bay without a blue pass or kicking off about being asked to take a bag off an empty train seat when it's busy.

The last few people who had bags on seats took them off without fuss; I had one just yesterday.

Once again, you are all basing it on the pandemic when I've said quite clearly several times I'm basing my OPINION (i.e. I have no scientific evidence for his, so keep asking but I can't provide any) on many things,

Your opinion is deeply flawed and you are now backtracking. Your argument is incoherent and seems to change to suit your argument.

Ultimately if you prefer to live abroad, I wish you would do so instead of trying to change our culture into an authoritarian one.

mask use or the steps people take to avoid it when they have no reason to, are just contributing factors to that.

We have very good reasons to avoid wearing masks, you just take a different view.

But I bet you don't wear an FFP2/3 mask every time you step outside your house, so in reality you can be spreading the virus just as much as any of us.

I realise I've upset some of you who can't seem to comprehend why someone thinks or sees the country differently to you, so I do apologise, but I can't change what I have seen and experienced in the UK compared to other countries. I'm not out to convince anyone, each to their own, think what you like.

Well we can only go by what you are posting; I will think what I like based on your posts.

Anyway I'm not posting on this thread again nor will I bother checking it. If indeed England has vaccine passports by Christmas then I don't expect anyone to come and say sorry, I couldn't care less, I don't gloat when I'm right. If they don't have them then I'll admit now I was wrong in advance as this will be closed by then.

Yes you have said this before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

So the fact that the streets are cleaner, and that people don't have as many public disputes doesn't suddenly mean that the Japanese response is favourable. As I have already said, Japanese people wear masks when ill in the hope that they don't have to face the shame of not going to work. That's hardly an act of altruism is it?

I think pro-maskers are just keen to see others wearing masks, whatever the circumstances and whatever the type of mask. There is no logic to their views.

 

[DustyBin]

On the subject of altruism, acting in the interests of others etc. I’ll repeat what I said yesterday; we must not comply with this mandate. Doing so will give them the green light to impose further restrictions to the detriment of not only many individuals, but our entire society and way of life. This has nothing to do with public health and everything to do with testing compliance. Collectively we must send a clear message: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

 

[Spamcan81]

I'd you don't like it here, why don't you move abroad?

<clip>

What a facile statement. I could say "if you don't like wearing masks, why don't you move to a country where they are not mandatory.
I agree with much of what Berliner said. As a Society we have become much more selfish. The "me, me, me" entitled attitude is much more prevalent today than it was in the past. This is not to say everyone is selfish of course. I see acts of kindness on a daily basis but sadly I also see acts of selfishness. And I agree that the plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree with much of what Berliner said. As a Society we have become much more selfish. The "me, me, me" entitled attitude is much more prevalent today than it was in the past. This is not to say everyone is selfish of course. I see acts of kindness on a daily basis but sadly I also see acts of selfishness. And I agree that the plural of anecdote is not data.

I think that there's undoubtedly an element of that in society today. I'm just not convinced that it's as uniquely British a problem as Berliner thinks.

 

[NorthKent1989]

What a facile statement. I could say "if you don't like wearing masks, why don't you move to a country where they are not mandatory.
I agree with much of what Berliner said. As a Society we have become much more selfish. The "me, me, me" entitled attitude is much more prevalent today than it was in the past. This is not to say everyone is selfish of course. I see acts of kindness on a daily basis but sadly I also see acts of selfishness. And I agree that the plural of anecdote is not data.

I see plenty of “me me me” types on the side of those who want restrictions regardless on how it effects mental health, people’s livelihoods, our freedoms etc

 

[yorksrob]

"Selfishness" or perhaps individualism is a better word, in a society causes problems but also has its benefits.

I would class a more critical evaluation of non-clinical interventions during this pandemic as a benefit of individualism.

 

[Dent]

I agree with much of what Berliner said. As a Society we have become much more selfish. The "me, me, me" entitled attitude is much more prevalent today than it was in the past. This is not to say everyone is selfish of course. I see acts of kindness on a daily basis but sadly I also see acts of selfishness.

Are you, like Berliner, conflating taking a stand for the freedom of the whole of society with being selfish? Is so then your are being highly disingenuous as these are closer to complete opposites than being the same thing.

 

[yorkie]

What a facile statement. I could say "if you don't like wearing masks, why don't you move to a country where they are not mandatory.

False equivalence; I'm not moaning about our whole culture and way of life.

I agree with much of what Berliner said.

Then why don't you move abroad too?

As a Society we have become much more selfish. The "me, me, me" entitled attitude is much more prevalent today than it was in the past.

That's ironic given Berliner seems unhappy at the range of exemptions in place, because we are a caring and tolerant society.

This is not to say everyone is selfish of course. I see acts of kindness on a daily basis but sadly I also see acts of selfishness. And I agree that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Those who seek to mandate others wear masks are among those who are selfish; anyone who distrusts vaccines can choose to wear a highly effective FFP2/3 mask rather than dictate what others should or shouldn't do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

I see plenty of “me me me” types on the side of those who want restrictions regardless on how it effects mental health, people’s livelihoods, our freedoms etc

Exactly. The pro-maskers are among the most selfish people on the planet; they disregard people with hearing difficulties, medical conditions, disabilities, anxieties, and much more. They disregard mental health and dismiss the effectiveness of vaccines in order to promote their pro-mask agenda.

And yet they have the cheek to call the rest of us selfish. Everyone who goes to pubs and restaurants is apparently selfish. Everyone in Sweden is apparently selfish. It's an illogical argument which is deep rooted in the ludicrous culture war we now find us in.

 

[DustyBin]

I think that there's undoubtedly an element of that in society today. I'm just not convinced that it's as uniquely British a problem as Berliner thinks.

I agree. There’s a section of society who seem to believe the UK is a uniquely terrible place, the cause of all suffering and the villain of the piece on the world stage. Why I have no idea. Brexit maybe? Or perhaps these people have overdosed on the self-loathing, virtue-signalling drivel found in the Guardian.

We’re not perfect by any means, but (shock horror) nor is anywhere else.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree. There’s a section of society who seem to believe the UK is a uniquely terrible place, the cause of all suffering and the villain of the piece on the world stage. Why I have no idea. Brexit maybe? Or perhaps these people have overdosed on the self-loathing, virtue-signalling drivel found in the Guardian.

We’re not perfect by any means, but (shock horror) nor is anywhere else.

Quite. I find my patience with the viewpoint wearing thin.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Re-reading the newspaper headlines from last year. It was the same old. Do this to save Christmas. And we didn’t get one.

Ergo, they’re already planning to cancel Christmas. And yet vaccines don’t work against the variant, but you need a booster vaccine. This stuff is getting tedious, pathetic, and is very transparent.

Wearing a mask and compliance is making this go on.

 

[TheSel]

Can anyone explain the science behind this that suggests that wearing a mask that meets no scientific standards whilst in an almost empty supermarket needs to be mandated, whereas wearing one whilst in a crowded bar should not?

Couldn't possibly be because Christmas is coming, and the "powers that be" daren't mandate the latter until January, could it? No - of course not. Please forgive my cynicism. And as for; "We'll be lead by the data, not the dates" - yeah, right!

 

[Bungle73]

What I'm hoping for is mass non-compliance, like we've seen on the Tube recently. That will make non-compliance by individuals a hell of a lot easier, and enforcement practically impossible. It will also send a message.

 

[Vinnym]

I have continued to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I am not sure how much it protects me but I do it out of courtesy to others. Get a grip everyone and just follow the rules, we are all in this together.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I have continued to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I am not sure how much it protects me but I do it out of courtesy to others. Get a grip everyone and just follow the rules, we are all in this together.

If the rules said you had to push someone off a cliff, you wouldn’t do it just because it’s the rules would you? Blindly following the Government and not challenging the established norm is a terrible idea.

 

[adc82140]

I have continued to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I am not sure how much it protects me but I do it out of courtesy to others. Get a grip everyone and just follow the rules, we are all in this together.

I follow rules that are presented to me alongside evidence as to why they are needed. I am still yet to see evidence that a cloth face covering stops small Covid particles.

"We are all on this together" has quite sinister undertones, like "be kind". It translates as "everyone do as I tell you"

 

[GB]

If the rules said you had to push someone off a cliff, you wouldn’t do it just because it’s the rules would you? Blindly following the Government and not challenging the established norm is a terrible idea.

I don’t care for masks one way or the other but trying to equate mask compliance with murder or serious injury is not a very clever counter argument.

 

[Richard Scott]

I don’t care for masks one way or the other but trying to equate mask compliance with murder or serious injury is not a very clever counter argument.

But I know of people who have been unable to deal with restrictions and committed suicide, maybe some non compliance will send a message that these restrictions are no longer tolerated and maybe help prevent some suicides?

 

[Smidster]

I have continued to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I am not sure how much it protects me but I do it out of courtesy to others. Get a grip everyone and just follow the rules, we are all in this together.

Of course most people will "follow the rules" because we tend to be law abiding citizens and don't want to get into trouble.

That does not mean that the rules should be in place or that they have any merit - Any public health restriction should have absolute rock-solid evidence to support its introduction and a clear idea of what you think it will do and why. That is simply not the case here - there is scant evidence of masks being effective in these settings...If I go to Tesco I do not come into close contract with anyone else for more than a couple of seconds (at absolute most) and so the background risk is near zero. Add in the fact that most people are wearing ill-fitting pieces of cloth that have been in their pockets for the last week and you have a restriction that is completely pointless and should not be in operation.

Cases may well fall over the next three weeks (and indeed the case ratio yesterday was below 1) - but that does not mean they are effective but more that viruses circulate and will have waves pretty much regardless unless you massively restrict social contact as we did with Lockdowns.

 

[yorkie]

I have continued to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I am not sure how much it protects me but I do it out of courtesy to others. Get a grip everyone and just follow the rules, we are all in this together.

You need to "get a grip" yourself; it is NOT a courtesy to others. If you only wear a mask on public transport and in shops and yet go to restaurants and pubs unmasked, are you suggesting you are being discourteous in those settings? Your argument is nonsensical

If you are wearing an FFP2/3 mask which is tight fitting you are protecting yourself (and others in the event you are infected) but if it is a flimsy loose fitting mask you are wearing, these offer no protection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

Can anyone explain the science behind this that suggests that wearing a mask that meets no scientific standards whilst in an almost empty supermarket needs to be mandated, whereas wearing one whilst in a crowded bar should not?

There is no logic or scientific basis.

If it was based on science, a mask mandate would require tight-fitting FFP2/3 masks in all settings.

Cases may well fall over the next three weeks (and indeed the case ratio yesterday was below 1) - but that does not mean they are effective but more that viruses circulate and will have waves pretty much regardless unless you massively restrict social contact as we did with Lockdowns.

Indeed, cases appear to have already peaked; it is very important we recognise this now, so that pro-maskers are not able to erroneously attribute this to more mask-wearing.


(Image shows the 7 day case rate by specimen date, for the UK showing a slowdown in the increase in cases, which appears to be peaking around 21-22 November; data in text-readable form available from https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases )

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I don’t care for masks one way or the other but trying to equate mask compliance with murder or serious injury is not a very clever counter argument.

It is. Because the counter argument relates to the very established societal idea that you challenge established norms and question things. Everyone knows that the mask is a comfort or compliance device, as if we were serious we’d have Government giving us free FFP2 / FFP3 masks in order that we actually try to reduce the airborne particulates (if they even work that much) in enclosed spaces.

And equating masks and social curbs to murder or serious injury is arguably possible if you make disabled people isolated, anxious people suicidal, and such.

 

[Smidster]

You need to "get a grip" yourself; it is NOT a courtesy to others. If you only wear a mask on public transport and in shops and yet go to restaurants and pubs unmasked, are you suggesting you are being discourteous in those settings? Your argument is nonsensical

If you are wearing an FFP2/3 mask which is tight fitting you are protecting yourself (and others in the event you are infected) but if it is a flimsy loose fitting mask you are wearing, these offer no protection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==


There is no logic or scientific basis.

If it was based on science, a mask mandate would require tight-fitting FFP2/3 masks in all settings.

This is too true.

I have seen cases of people who will wear masks all day only to go out with the same people in the evening in the pub / restaurant when the masks come off despite being closer together for a longer period of time or being very keen to have them on the train going to an event but not so much on the return journey.

It is all just complete and utter nonsense.