Marches blocked yet again by A Broken Down Freight.

[Tomnick]

Apart from the lack of reversible signalling (which probably won't be provided after resignalling anyway?), is the 'ancient' signalling actually causing any real problems at the moment?

 

[talltim]

Whats not to understand? From where ever the train was, because of its length the rear was blocking the mainline.

I read it as the delay was too long rather than the train. Now you've said it its obvious!

 

[The Planner]

Strange for it to happen at Hereford though - the loop there is one of the longer ones on the line. It's a regular enough occurrence to be unable to pass freight trains because they're too long for the other loops, but they've always been able to fit into the through lines at Hereford.

Would agree, the length limit on the route is based on the Hereford loops which at 2163ft/659m on the down and 2310ft/704m on the up isn't too shabby. Someone was obviously a bit naughty though considering 6V51 was running at 2182ft so its butt would have hung out.

Admittedly it is a long time since I saw the resignalling plans, but it was down for bi-di signalling when resignalled. Possibly binned on cost now though.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Whats not to understand? From where ever the train was, because of its length the rear was blocking the mainline.

Yes, I understand that (I think) but as The Planner suggests, surely the length of the train in relation to available loops should have been considered just in case a problem arose (as it did).

 

[Llanigraham]

We wouldn't have so many of these problems if we had a railway fit for the 21st Century on the North and West! A route well used by freight should have some long loops in multiple locations in both directions, and we really shouldn't still be using ancient signalling technology either!

No sign of a thorough modernisation of the route in the next few years, so we could see this sort of issue pop up for a long time yet.

According to Twitter and ATW things are back to normal now but still...

Thanks!
Nice to see such heartfelt support for us signallers on this line!!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Already planning how ill use my delay repay compensation from tomorrow's trip on the Marches p

 

[Envoy]

Already planning how ill use my delay repay compensation from tomorrow's trip on the Marches p

Did ATW actually advise passengers that they could get compensation? Do they tell them to keep the tickets as proof of travel - or do they lose their tickets when they are 'gobbled up' at exit gates? Are compensation forms given out?

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks!
Nice to see such heartfelt support for us signallers on this line!!

I am wondering why is all this signalling in the future being centred on Cardiff,I understand it will reach far into North Wales main line.

As we are in the North why is the signalling being taken away from say Chester which is more local, no political reason for me asking this, just out of interest.

 

[Techniquest]

Good to hear the North and West is going to get done up to modern standards, long overdue!

 

[Llanigraham]

I am wondering why is all this signalling in the future being centred on Cardiff,I understand it will reach far into North Wales main line.

As we are in the North why is the signalling being taken away from say Chester which is more local, no political reason for me asking this, just out of interest.

Because Notwork Rail have this big plan of running the whole country (UK) from several large Signalling Control Centres, and Cardiff is just one of them. It doesn't really matter where they are, but it does mean that lots of us are facing redundancy in the future.
Cardiff already controls the Shrewsbury - Crewe line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good to hear the North and West is going to get done up to modern standards, long overdue!

Thank you for your kind support (again) NOT!!

Yes progress has to happen, but it does mean that people will end up being made redundant as there is little to no chance of redeployment on the modern railway (as I well know!), and yet you seem to ignore that fact and almost revel in it.

 

[Tomnick]

Again, has the 'ancient' signalling contributed to the recent disruption in any way? It doesn't matter how and from where it's controlled, an expired freight train is going to cause a lot of problems. The only aspect of a resignalling scheme that would make any difference would be reversible signalling - it's encouraging to see that they're still proposing that, but I'm sure it'll be the first to go if they're looking at saving a few pennies.

Longer loops might help day to day regulating, but then it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to extend what's already there.

 

[berneyarms]

I am wondering why is all this signalling in the future being centred on Cardiff,I understand it will reach far into North Wales main line.

As we are in the North why is the signalling being taken away from say Chester which is more local, no political reason for me asking this, just out of interest.

Modern computerised signalling does not need to be controlled from local locations - it can be controlled from central locations resulting in much lower costs.

Taking Ireland for example, apart from a small number of remaining lines and locations controlled locally, the entire Iarnród Éireann network signalling is controlled from a single signalling centre at Connolly Station in Dublin.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did ATW actually advise passengers that they could get compensation? Do they tell them to keep the tickets as proof of travel - or do they lose their tickets when they are 'gobbled up' at exit gates? Are compensation forms given out?

Read the previous post again....

Already planning how ill use my delay repay compensation from tomorrow's trip on the Marches p

It was a remark made in jest I would suggest....

 

[a good off]

Because Notwork Rail have this big plan of running the whole country (UK) from several large Signalling Control Centres, and Cardiff is just one of them. It doesn't really matter where they are, but it does mean that lots of us are facing redundancy in the future.
Cardiff already controls the Shrewsbury - Crewe line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thank you for your kind support (again) NOT!!

Yes progress has to happen, but it does mean that people will end up being made redundant as there is little to no chance of redeployment on the modern railway (as I well know!), and yet you seem to ignore that fact and almost revel in it.

In support of Llanigraham and having worked with the line for many years, the so called ancient signalling has many more operational advantages with eyes and ears on site and people actually being located near the trains that they are signalling. The North & West line once had many loops especially on the Down but none were of particularly long length to accommodate trains of 2000ft +.

NR's latest modular signalling proposals for the line have slipped (as I always said they would early on) and are pretty much like for like replacement of the existing signalling including retaining the long sections that are currently AB. No operational gains will be made, just as there weren't on the Crewe - Shrewsbury. I concede that reversible signalling on the North & West would be of a great benefit but if they don't go for that option then they may as well just leave things as they are. Three aspect MAS (or equivilent) with evenly spaced signals is the only way forward in my opinion. Resignalling it with second rate modular will guarantee that the line will be restricted in capacity with no options for growth for another generation.

Making Hereford fully bi-di from Shelwick Jn would've got them out of the 6V51 fiasco.

 

[The Planner]

No operational gains will be made, just as there weren't on the Crewe - Shrewsbury.

Ah, but the key word missing there is that NR see lots of operational expenditure gains...

 

[Llanigraham]

In support of Llanigraham and having worked with the line for many years, the so called ancient signalling has many more operational advantages with eyes and ears on site and people actually being located near the trains that they are signalling. The North & West line once had many loops especially on the Down but none were of particularly long length to accommodate trains of 2000ft +.

NR's latest modular signalling proposals for the line have slipped (as I always said they would early on) and are pretty much like for like replacement of the existing signalling including retaining the long sections that are currently AB. No operational gains will be made, just as there weren't on the Crewe - Shrewsbury. I concede that reversible signalling on the North & West would be of a great benefit but if they don't go for that option then they may as well just leave things as they are. Three aspect MAS (or equivilent) with evenly spaced signals is the only way forward in my opinion. Resignalling it with second rate modular will guarantee that the line will be restricted in capacity with no options for growth for another generation.

Making Hereford fully bi-di from Shelwick Jn would've got them out of the 6V51 fiasco.

Thank you.

Ah, but the key word missing there is that NR see lots of operational expenditure gains...

And don't we know it!

 

[a good off]

Ah, but the key word missing there is that NR see lots of operational expenditure gains...

It would take them years and years to break even if ever.

 

[merlodlliw]

Because Notwork Rail have this big plan of running the whole country (UK) from several large Signalling Control Centres, and Cardiff is just one of them. It doesn't really matter where they are, but it does mean that lots of us are facing redundancy in the future.
Cardiff already controls the Shrewsbury - Crewe line.

redundancy is an awful weight on everyone's mind,I have been there myself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Modern computerised signalling does not need to be controlled from local locations - it can be controlled from central locations resulting in much lower costs.

Taking Ireland for example, apart from a small number of remaining lines and locations controlled locally, the entire Iarnród Éireann network signalling is controlled from a single signalling centre at Connolly Station in Dublin.

Does Dublin Tower control the DART?,

 

[The Planner]

It would take them years and years to break even if ever.

The life expectancy of a re-signalling is normally 40 years so I expect it gets there eventually.

 

[berneyarms]

redundancy is an awful weight on everyone's mind,I have been there myself.

I'd agree with this - but unfortunately the railway (like every other industry) is not immune from technological advances, and with any such changes there will be an inevitable loss of staff. It's awful for the staff involved, and I do sympathise with them.

Modern computerised signalling does not need to be controlled from local locations - it can be controlled from central locations resulting in much lower costs.

Taking Ireland for example, apart from a small number of remaining lines and locations controlled locally, the entire Iarnród Éireann network signalling is controlled from a single signalling centre at Connolly Station in Dublin.

Does Dublin Tower control the DART?,

Yes, DART is controlled from the Centralised Traffic Control (CTC) at Connolly.

CTC at Connolly controls the entire Irish railway network in the country except for:

Ballybrophy-Nenagh-Killonan Junction
(Controlled by ETS instruments in local cabins at Roscrea, Birdhill and Killonan Junction)

Tipperary-Waterford West
(Controlled by ETS instruments in local cabins at Tipperary, Clonmel and Waterford West)

Navan-Tara Mines
(Controlled by ETS instruments in local cabin at Navan)

Waterford Station area
Limerick Station area
Cork Station area
(Local signal cabins)

Heuston Station area
Heuston-Glasnevin Junction (via Phoenix Park Tunnel)
(all controlled at Heuston centre)

Athlone-Westport & Ballina
Athlone-Galway
Athenry-Limerick
(all controlled via Mini-CTC from Athlone centre)

Greystones-Rosslare
(controlled via Mini-CTC from Greystones centre)

Clonsilla-Maynooth & M3 Parkway
(controlled from Clonsilla centre)

Cork - Cobh & Midleton
(controlled from Cork cabin)

The plan is for a single signalling centre for the entire country by 2022.

It's the way things are going across the railways, and unfortunately the character of the railway is probably the worse for it.

 

[Techniquest]

I don't recall saying I wanted jobs to go on the railway regarding signallers on the North and West. Quite, I've had concerns about job security lately too so I understand the redundancy worries.

Not sure how I'm revelling in it all mind, but it would be nice to have a mainline railway in the modern day not needing to use such things as Absolute Block signalling, and having bi-di along the North and West would be immensely useful all year round, there would be a chance to have less reliance on rail replacement coaches during engineering work. Newport to Shrewsbury is a fair ol' trek as it is by rail, by road it'Il be even more of an endurance! Speaking of...

Is Shrewsbury to Hereford the only route that's had a permanent replacement bus, on the first service of the day (0750 Shrewsbury to Hereford), on Sundays for several years? I don't recall a time when it hasn't been the case, so at least 10 years now. I don't know of anywhere else like it in the country!

 

[Llanigraham]

Sorry, but your choice of words most certainly came across as you were reveling in the scrapping of AB and the Boxes on the Marches.

Saturday night is the only night that any maintenance can be done in any reasonable amount on that line, so the line often is closed, which is why I presume the bus is used. I just pull levers so wouldn't know the details.

 

[PHILIPE]

To allow Network Rail carte blanche occupation time whether they use it or not.
Due to an additional service at the North End being introduced it was decided to run a connection from the South but, as we know, it had to be a bus.
There is another regular ATW one, an 07 28 Manchester Picc to Chester on a Sunday.

 

[D1009]

Not sure how I'm revelling in it all mind, but it would be nice to have a mainline railway in the modern day not needing to use such things as Absolute Block signalling, and having bi-di along the North and West would be immensely useful all year round, there would be a chance to have less reliance on rail replacement coaches during engineering work.

I'm not sure when Track Circuit Block first came on the scene, but it was certainly around 60 years ago, and since then everyone working in a manual box must have realised that many of their jobs would eventually disappear. You would have thought that in that time all signalling would have been modernised in some way, but thanks to the disjointed way in which British railway modernisation has happened, there are still areas which many people would see as working museums, and Network Rail has had to recruit new people to work in these boxes because of the lack of progress. I worked for 40 something years as a train planner, and obviously we saw the advent of new technology as a potential threat to our jobs, but fortunately for us, and unfortunately for the industry the technology did not work as well as those who promoted it were hoping.

 

[Techniquest]

Sorry, but your choice of words most certainly came across as you were reveling in the scrapping of AB and the Boxes on the Marches.

Saturday night is the only night that any maintenance can be done in any reasonable amount on that line, so the line often is closed, which is why I presume the bus is used. I just pull levers so wouldn't know the details.

In that case I do apologise. Clearly I should learn to post less during the interval before work, or while waiting for the bus home!

Clearly NR have faith in the boxes lasting quite some time, as they're apparently after a signaller in Hereford.

As for the reason on the block, I suppose that makes sense. Didn't know about the Manchester to Chester one, it's not a regular event across the network by the looks of it though. Is Shrewsbury to Hereford considered that badly in need of a block on Sunday mornings though? Manchester to Chester I can understand more, especially now part of that route is wired up and it's busy. Not that it tends to affect me anyway, as I'm hardly ever on the rails on a Sunday.

 

[Llanigraham]

In that case I do apologise. Clearly I should learn to post less during the interval before work, or while waiting for the bus home!

Clearly NR have faith in the boxes lasting quite some time, as they're apparently after a signaller in Hereford.

As for the reason on the block, I suppose that makes sense. Didn't know about the Manchester to Chester one, it's not a regular event across the network by the looks of it though. Is Shrewsbury to Hereford considered that badly in need of a block on Sunday mornings though?

No problem.

Re the block;
Yes, as said previously, as that is really the only time that they can get full possession, and because of the way things are laid out it is easier to close between the 2 biggest centres than to split it up into the various signalling sections, which don't fit with the stations.
Sections:
Hereford - Moreton - Leominster - Woofferton - Bromfield - Onibury - Craven Arms - Marshbrook - Dorrington - Sutton Bridge Junc - Severn Bridge Junc.
Stations:
Hereford, Leominster, Ludlow, Craven Arms, Church Stretton.

 

[merlodlliw]

I'd agree with this - but unfortunately the railway (like every other industry) is not immune from technological advances, and with any such changes there will be an inevitable loss of staff. It's awful for the staff involved, and I do sympathise with them.



Yes, DART is controlled from the Centralised Traffic Control (CTC) at Connolly.

CTC at Connolly controls the entire Irish railway network in the country except for:

Thanks for the information,I wonder if the new centre is still known as Dublin Tower,this was the name given to it.when I travelled a lot in Ireland.
I mention the Dart, as I happened to arrive at Dun L on the day it was launched and got free rides all afternoon, I must have caught a late morning ferry, as I will always remember a member staff at at Dun L station making a tanoy announcement, "The next Bray train is at three,and its free".
I had to quiry the message and was told it was launch day for the Dart,all trains are free for the day, enjoyed the experience.

 

[Techniquest]

In that case I do apologise. Clearly I should learn to post less during the interval before work, or while waiting for the bus home!

Clearly NR have faith in the boxes lasting quite some time, as they're apparently after a signaller in Hereford.

As for the reason on the block, I suppose that makes sense. Didn't know about the Manchester to Chester one, it's not a regular event across the network by the looks of it though. Is Shrewsbury to Hereford considered that badly in need of a block on Sunday mornings though?

No problem.

Re the block;
Yes, as said previously, as that is really the only time that they can get full possession, and because of the way things are laid out it is easier to close between the 2 biggest centres than to split it up into the various signalling sections, which don't fit with the stations.
Sections:
Hereford - Moreton - Leominster - Woofferton - Bromfield - Onibury - Craven Arms - Marshbrook - Dorrington - Sutton Bridge Junc - Severn Bridge Junc.
Stations:
Hereford, Leominster, Ludlow, Craven Arms, Church Stretton.

Ah yes, makes sense now, thanks

 

[berneyarms]

Thanks for the information,I wonder if the new centre is still known as Dublin Tower,this was the name given to it.when I travelled a lot in Ireland.
I mention the Dart, as I happened to arrive at Dun L on the day it was launched and got free rides all afternoon, I must have caught a late morning ferry, as I will always remember a member staff at at Dun L station making a tanoy announcement, "The next Bray train is at three,and its free".
I had to quiry the message and was told it was launch day for the Dart,all trains are free for the day, enjoyed the experience.

Never heard that name. Have only ever heard it called CTC.

 

[83G/84D]

Overnight Monday into Tuesday 6V22 1808 New Cumnock to Aberthaw failed in the Pontrilas area with 66113 at the helm allegedly running out of fuel.

 

[Llanigraham]

I seem to remember something similar happening in the past!
Cue one severe rollicking to the FOC.