Manchester Metrolink (Non speculative discussion)

[Mothball]

Hi, does anyone know of a potential new bee network tram livery being applied to the m5000s, an official one like the most buses do?

AFAIK this is all that has been released so far

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

AFAIK this is all that has been released so far

Would an all-over yellow livery show more grime caused by being in service than the existing large silver-grey area sections of the current tram livery?

 

[507 001]

Hi, does anyone know of a potential new bee network tram livery being applied to the m5000s, an official one like the most buses do?

There’s no plans at present. There is one running around in a bee network advert livery which looks quite smart though.

Most of them are due a repaint at some point in the near future so you never know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2023 ==

Would an all-over yellow livery show more grime caused by being in service than the existing large silver-grey area sections of the current tram livery?

Not necessarily. The grey gets absolutely filthy anyway.

 

[Tim33160]

Metrolink tram 3079 is the tram wrapped in Bee Network colours

Metrolink M5000 no: 3079 in Say Yellow To The Bee Network all-over livery with a Victoria service at St. Peter's Square stop, Manchester 28-9-23 Credit: onewayticket
https://www.flickr.com/photos/7681357@N02/53233214561

 

[507 001]

Metrolink tram 3079 is the tram wrapped in Bee Network colours

Metrolink M5000 no: 3079 in Say Yellow To The Bee Network all-over livery with a Victoria service at St. Peter's Square stop, Manchester 28-9-23 Credit: onewayticket
https://www.flickr.com/photos/7681357@N02/53233214561

Yes that’s it. Couldn’t remember the number.

Walked past it on the depot this morning and it looks quite smart. Much better than the silver. It also appears to be a nicer shade of yellow than the horrible one they’ve painted the buses…

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Much better than the silver. It also appears to be a nicer shade of yellow than the horrible one they’ve painted the buses…

Can anyone remember what the general feeling was at the time when the original Metrolink livery of blue and white was changed to the existing livery? Who was it who made the decision to do that?

 

[MSO69]

Yes that’s it. Couldn’t remember the number.

Walked past it on the depot this morning and it looks quite smart. Much better than the silver. It also appears to be a nicer shade of yellow than the horrible one they’ve painted the buses…

I have to say the yellow wrap matches the yellow on the cab perfectly, well done to metrolink

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Can anyone remember what the general feeling was at the time when the original Metrolink livery of blue and white was changed to the existing livery? Who was it who made the decision to do that?

One of those corporate identity refresh things announced by a brand consultancy firm called 'Hemisphere' following a competitive tender. Almost certainly planned to co-incide with the ordering of the (then new) M5000 tram units and the significant expansion of the Metrolink system. Yellow (offset with silver) was apparently chosen due to its high visibility.

The official corporate colours before 2008/9 were, IIRC, light and dark grey and aquamarine.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One of those corporate identity refresh things announced by a brand consultancy firm called 'Hemisphere' following a competitive tender. Almost certainly planned to co-incide with the ordering of the (then new) M5000 tram units and the significant expansion of the Metrolink system. Yellow (offset with silver) was apparently chosen due to its high visibility.

The official corporate colours before 2008/9 were, IIRC, light and dark grey and aquamarine.

Thank you for that detailed explanation and naming the actual colour scheme of the original fleet. At present, what actual percentage of a tram body is silver and what percentage is yellow?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At present, what actual percentage of a tram body is silver and what percentage is yellow?

Possibly 40% yellow (mostly towards the cab ends), the other 60% grey.

 

[edwin_m]

One of those corporate identity refresh things announced by a brand consultancy firm called 'Hemisphere' following a competitive tender. Almost certainly planned to co-incide with the ordering of the (then new) M5000 tram units and the significant expansion of the Metrolink system. Yellow (offset with silver) was apparently chosen due to its high visibility.

The official corporate colours before 2008/9 were, IIRC, light and dark grey and aquamarine.

Certainly all the M5000s were delivered in this livery, though I recall seeing one in the depot without the circles and they may all have had them added after delivery. If I recall correctly one of the original vehicles was re-liveried, but presumably no more were done once they decided to buy more M5000s to replace them.

 

[Mothball]

Would an all-over yellow livery show more grime caused by being in service than the existing large silver-grey area sections of the current tram livery?

From bodywork experience with fleets of commercial vehicles - yellow is a God awful colour to maintain. It fades and holds Grime worse than any other colour and becomes next to impossible to colour match for the inevitable touch ups that are reguarly required.
The trams don't suffer as bad in the latter respect in that they don't need as much in the way of touch up repairs, and given the abysmal condition some of them are running around in a repaint into any colour would be beneficial at this point. Hopefully the paintwork sees some actual care afterwards.

Certainly all the M5000s were delivered in this livery, though I recall seeing one in the depot without the circles and they may all have had them added after delivery. If I recall correctly one of the original vehicles was re-liveried, but presumably no more were done once they decided to buy more M5000s to replace them.

3001 was delivered with the spots applied, so potentially the first few did but the vast majority had the decals fitted post-delivery. 1003 was the T68 that was wrapped in the current scheme albeit with a number of adverts carried in the central section (The livery it still carries today at the fire service training centre)

 

[507 001]

aquamarine

Altrincham green to be precise.

Certainly all the M5000s were delivered in this livery, though I recall seeing one in the depot without the circles and they may all have had them added after delivery. If I recall correctly one of the original vehicles was re-liveried, but presumably no more were done once they decided to buy more M5000s to replace them.

All bar 3001 were delivered spotless. They have the spots applied as part of the commissioning process.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

After the decision was made concerning that HS2 would not be coming to Manchester, has that now solved the problem that was facing the Ashton Metrolink line in the form of the proposed connection break?

 

[MasterSpenny]

Andy Burnham has made an update regarding the Stockport extension. More detail will be shared by the end of this year.

Mayor’s hint over in-demand tram link to town - BBC News

Andy Burnham says a "detailed update" on plans to link Metrolink trams to Stockport will be released.

www.bbc.co.uk

Mayor’s hint over in-demand tram link to Stockport​

A "detailed update" on the case for linking Greater Manchester's Metrolink tram network to Stockport will be shared before 2024, mayor Andy Burnham has said.
Mr Burnham said the ongoing work at the town's new transport interchange will soon be "Metrolink ready".
He added the combined authority was looking at "precise schemes" to extend the network.
Residents in Stockport have long wanted a tram connection.
Recent plans shared to replace two bridges in the town included tram and train futureproofing for one additional track.
Speaking to BBC Radio Manchester, Mr Burnham also said the region has more funding from the government as a result of changes to national transport projects such as HS2, which was axed in the North.
The mayor said: "Transport for Greater Manchester have been doing a detailed assessment of all of our ambitions for Metrolink, and the Metrolink to Stockport is a big part of that.
"The new interchange that links to new infrastructure is going to be Metrolink ready, so it's being built with that capability.
"What we're doing now is looking at the precise schemes that we've got to expand Metrolink and looking at the cost of them and we're going to publish that work later this year.
"We've got a big ambition to take Metrolink to Stockport but we've also got one to take it north up through close to Middleton, Heywood and up to Bury through the Atom Valley site.
"We've got a bit more capital funding from the government. We didn't agree with their decision around high-speed rail, and east-west rail across the North, but as a result of that they've increased some of our local capital so we've got some extra ability to do more.
"The long and short of it is that it's a really important ambition for the city region, we're going to give a really detailed update later this year on the business case for bringing Metrolink to Stockport so look out for that."

 

[Techniquest]

Fascinating. I thought the scheme to extend Metrolink from East Didsbury to Stockport was long gone, and I think it definitely has potential to be very well used. I'm certainly intrigued and I'll be following updates

The Atom Valley site mentioned is somewhere I'm not familiar with, but an extension taking in the likes of Heywood could well be quite interesting. Personally I'd like to see Stockport done first, but I am biased given I approach Manchester from that direction!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Fascinating. I thought the scheme to extend Metrolink from East Didsbury to Stockport was long gone, and I think it definitely has potential to be very well used. I'm certainly intrigued and I'll be following updates

What's the current thinking on the likely routeing of any such Metrolink extension into Stockport town centre?

 

[Techniquest]

What's the current thinking on the likely routeing of any such Metrolink extension into Stockport town centre?

I'm not well enough versed on Stockport and the surrounding area to form an opinion there, but I seem to recall there's an old railway formation from East Didsbury that currently hosts a shared-use path. My memory of that could be wrong however, it's been on my list to research for ages!

If the extension makes it to that new and fancy looking bus station, I'd say that would suffice. Into the town centre itself, which I haven't got around to fully exploring yet, may not be strictly necessary if it makes it to the bus station. I have not caught a bus there yet, but it certainly would make a great interchange.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not well enough versed on Stockport and the surrounding area to form an opinion there, but I seem to recall there's an old railway formation from East Didsbury that currently hosts a shared-use path. My memory of that could be wrong however, it's been on my list to research for ages!

If the extension makes it to that new and fancy looking bus station, I'd say that would suffice. Into the town centre itself, which I haven't got around to fully exploring yet, may not be strictly necessary if it makes it to the bus station. I have not caught a bus there yet, but it certainly would make a great interchange.

Would a line extension from the current East Didsbury tram terminus when reaching the area of the new Stockport interchange give a connectional same-level linkage as currently found in Ashton-under-Lyne?

 

[jfollows]

I'm not well enough versed on Stockport and the surrounding area to form an opinion there, but I seem to recall there's an old railway formation from East Didsbury that currently hosts a shared-use path. My memory of that could be wrong however, it's been on my list to research for ages!

If the extension makes it to that new and fancy looking bus station, I'd say that would suffice. Into the town centre itself, which I haven't got around to fully exploring yet, may not be strictly necessary if it makes it to the bus station. I have not caught a bus there yet, but it certainly would make a great interchange.

Attached from
British Railway pre-grouping Altlas and Gazetteer, Ian Allan 1976.
The line currently re-used by the tram to East Didsbury used to continue to Stockport Tiviot Dale or to Cheadle Heath and the Midland line. It's part of the Midland main line from Manchester Central to London Saint Pancras.

 

[Techniquest]

Would a line extension from the current East Didsbury tram terminus when reaching the area of the new Stockport interchange give a connectional same-level linkage as currently found in Ashton-under-Lyne?

Excellent question. I'm trying to picture the area, and while I think it is doable I'd have to hand over to a local to confirm. There's some interesting geography to navigate just west of Stockport, and I don't think there's room alongside the A560 (I think that's the number) towards Cheadle.

Attached from
British Railway pre-grouping Altlas and Gazetteer, Ian Allan 1976.
The line currently re-used by the tram to East Didsbury used to continue to Stockport Tiviot Dale or to Cheadle Heath and the Midland line.

Thanks! I'll have a look after lunch

EDIT: Quick look had, now I'll just have to compare it to the current day to cast a view but I suspect it should be doable. Whether or not the shared-use path would be kept is another matter!

 

[Chester1]

I'm not well enough versed on Stockport and the surrounding area to form an opinion there, but I seem to recall there's an old railway formation from East Didsbury that currently hosts a shared-use path. My memory of that could be wrong however, it's been on my list to research for ages!

If the extension makes it to that new and fancy looking bus station, I'd say that would suffice. Into the town centre itself, which I haven't got around to fully exploring yet, may not be strictly necessary if it makes it to the bus station. I have not caught a bus there yet, but it certainly would make a great interchange.

Excellent question. I'm trying to picture the area, and while I think it is doable I'd have to hand over to a local to confirm. There's some interesting geography to navigate just west of Stockport, and I don't think there's room alongside the A560 (I think that's the number) towards Cheadle.



Thanks! I'll have a look after lunch

EDIT: Quick look had, now I'll just have to compare it to the current day to cast a view but I suspect it should be doable. Whether or not the shared-use path would be kept is another matter!

The early 2000s plan used about half the old alignment, diverting through Kingsway business park and on street at the Stockport end.

The other option is tram train. There was work done about ten years ago on orbital tram train routes. Burnham doesn't specify it would be extending the Didsbury line or serving the city centre. A line to the Airport would be more useful than to city centre.

Would a line extension from the current East Didsbury tram terminus when reaching the area of the new Stockport interchange give a connectional same-level linkage as currently found in Ashton-under-Lyne?

The site reserved for a Metrolink stop is right next to the bus station. Its aligned to allow trams to go up the A5145 to the western side of the railway station.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I know the Stockport are quite well and my understanding is that the route might go from Parrs Wood via Manchester Road then onto Stockport Road via Cheadle and Cheadle Health towards Edgeley. I saw one map which should this line terminating at Hazel Grove, and another line from Ashton to Stockport. That would mean it would be possible to get a tram from say Didsbury to Ashton without having to go via the city centre and use the existing slow Ashton line. The Stockport Ashton line on this map starts at Baguley.

I don't think the map was official though, but was based on comments made by officials over the last few years.

I believe the original cutting from Parrs Wood to Stockport has been built over in places so that would be very difficult to use that and Didsbury Road is not suitable for trams. I am not sure when it was built over because the Stockport line was mentioned in the early 1982 plans and in 1982 it would have only been closed for passenger traffic for 12-14 years (I am guessing it might have closed in 1969 when Manchester Central closed).

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The original plan for Metrolink to reach Stockport was indeed partially along the formation of the CLC Tiviot Dale line, but then a very tortuous route requiring a new bridge over the M60 and no less than three over the River Mersey. It would also have had to somehow navigate the busy M60 / Brinksway junction.

Metrolink Stockport

(Courtesy MWMBWLS of this Parish)

The latest thinking is to reinstate the Midland main-line bridge over the Mersey to Cheadle Heath and build a new spur there onto the Altrincham - Stockport line to allow tram-train operation to Edgeley station and then down the hill to the Interchange. Greek Street bridge, just south of Edgeley station is scheduled to be replaced in 2025 (it has concrete cancer), and will have passive provision for Metrolink tracks. Although this a longer route to Stockport it gives much better connection with heavy rail and the town itself and serves the Edgeley district.

 

[TheSmiths82]

The original plan for Metrolink to reach Stockport was indeed partially along the formation of the CLC Tiviot Dale line, but then a very tortuous route requiring a new bridge over the M60 and no less than three over the River Mersey. It would also have had to somehow navigate the busy M60 / Brinksway junction.

Metrolink Stockport

(Courtesy MWMBWLS of this Parish)

The latest thinking is to reinstate the Midland main-line bridge over the Mersey to Cheadle Heath and build a new spur there onto the Altrincham - Stockport line to allow tram-train operation to Edgeley station and then down the hill to the Interchange. Greek Street bridge, just south of Edgeley station is scheduled to be replaced in 2025 (it has concrete cancer), and will have passive provision for Metrolink tracks. Although this a longer route to Stockport it gives much better connection with heavy rail and the town itself and serves the Edgeley district.

I think they have just started works to replace that bridge last week. It will be a bit of a nightmare for me as I often use it on the drive home and I hate driving down the A6.

 

[Greybeard33]

The original plan for Metrolink to reach Stockport was indeed partially along the formation of the CLC Tiviot Dale line, but then a very tortuous route requiring a new bridge over the M60 and no less than three over the River Mersey. It would also have had to somehow navigate the busy M60 / Brinksway junction.

Metrolink Stockport

(Courtesy MWMBWLS of this Parish)

The latest thinking is to reinstate the Midland main-line bridge over the Mersey to Cheadle Heath and build a new spur there onto the Altrincham - Stockport line to allow tram-train operation to Edgeley station and then down the hill to the Interchange. Greek Street bridge, just south of Edgeley station is scheduled to be replaced in 2025 (it has concrete cancer), and will have passive provision for Metrolink tracks. Although this a longer route to Stockport it gives much better connection with heavy rail and the town itself and serves the Edgeley district.

I believe TfGM's most recent publication showing possible Metrolink and tram-train routes to Stockport was this schematic map in the 2021 Five Year Transport Delivery Plan:

Our Five Year Transport Delivery Plan

greater manchester transport strategy

tfgm.com

This appears to show a possible tramway route (red dots) from E Didsbury along the Mersey valley, following roughly the alignment of the former CLC line towards Tiviot Dale until east of M60 J1, where it appears to cross the river to the Interchange.

Also shown are possible tram-train routes (red dashes) from E Didsbury to Hazel Grove, using the former MML alignment (now freight only) through Cheadle Heath; from Stockport to Manchester Airport, using the Stockport - Altrincham line through Edgeley and Cheadle, then joining the existing Metrolink line in Baguley; and from Stockport to Tameside, using the line from Heaton Norris via Reddish South and Denton. There might be a junction between the first two of these where the lines cross, so providing a roundabout tram-train route from E Didsbury to Stockport via Edgeley as an alternative to the Mersey valley tramway route, as @Sir Felix Pole suggested above.

These were just preliminary proposals at the "option development" stage, so the routes might well change as they progress (or not) through business case development.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I believe TfGM's most recent publication showing possible Metrolink and tram-train routes to Stockport was this schematic map in the 2021 Five Year Transport Delivery Plan:
View attachment 145570

Also shown are possible tram-train routes (red dashes) from E Didsbury to Hazel Grove, using the former MML alignment (now freight only) through Cheadle Heath; from Stockport to Manchester Airport, using the Stockport - Altrincham line through Edgeley and Cheadle, then joining the existing Metrolink line in Baguley; and from Stockport to Tameside, using the line from Heaton Norris via Reddish South and Denton. There might be a junction between the first two of these where the lines cross, so providing a roundabout tram-train route from E Didsbury to Stockport via Edgeley as an alternative to the Mersey valley tramway route, as @Sir Felix Pole suggested above

Noting the mention of tram-train routes above, what is the latest news about a fleet of tram-trains for the Greater Manchester area and where will these be stabled?

 

[Chester1]

Noting the mention of tram-train routes above, what is the latest news about a fleet of tram-trains for the Greater Manchester area and where will these be stabled?

Tram trains are dependent on a good the business case for converting a line. Its not clear that any of the proposed lines have a positive cost benefit ratio. The units would need to be stabled at one of the two Metrolink depots or at a new third depot. Its unlikely they would be stabled with trains because they are essentially just sturdier trams. Sheffield tram trains use tram facilities and the South Wales tram trains will use a dedicated depot. Metrolink tram trains would be limited to the approximate length of a double tram set because the junctions in the city centre can only support units of up to 60 metres without fouling points.

 

[daodao]

I do not see major benefits of extending Metrolink to Stockport town centre, given:

• the substantial infrastructure costs in building this extension from Parrs Wood, as the ex-MR/CLC alignment has been essentially destroyed east of this point and there is a need to cross the Mersey Valley by some means.
• the roundabout route of the old South District line into central Manchester, which with frequent stops takes 25 minutes from East Didsbury to St Peter's Square and would take about 35 minutes from Stockport.
• the relatively low demand for travel between South Manchester suburbs and Stockport.
• the existence of fast frequent trains from Stockport Edgeley station to Piccadilly, with some also calling at Oxford Road.

Concerns about Stockport Metropolitan Borough not gaining any benefit from Metrolink, but contributing financially to it, can be addressed by converting the existing heavy rail line via Reddish to Marple Rose Hill to Metrolink.

 

[jfollows]

I do not see major benefit of extending Metrolink to Stockport town centre, given:

• the substantial infrastructure costs in building this extension from Parrs Wood, as the ex-MR/CLC alignment has been essentially destroyed east of this point and there is a need to cross the Mersey Valley by some means.
• the roundabout route of the old South District line into central Manchester, which with frequent stops takes 25 minutes from East Didsbury to St Peter's Square and would take about 35 minutes from Stockport.
• the existence of fast frequent trains from Stockport Edgeley station to Piccadilly, with some also calling at Oxford Road.

I agree, but it's become political, "Metrolink good, anything else bad".
People in Wilmslow want Metrolink as well, for goodness sake!
I went on the line from Manchester Airport once because it was new, it takes forever, of course it's good for Wythenshawe so it probably makes sense. In my case I was going to Sale but even then it would have been quicker to have gone via Manchester by train, and theoretically cheaper given that I inadvertently breached the afternoon restrictions by getting on a train after 4pm on the way home (I just forgot about the stupid restriction until I remembered when I was on the train, and didn't get picked up on it) whereas I'd have been fine getting on it earlier.
Stockport would mean that it'd be good for trips between East Didsbury and Stockport and the bits inbetween, but the idea that it'd be good for trips to Manchester is wonky.
Metrolink's only useful for Stockport if it opens up links which aren't currently there. My partner works near the Pyramid building - apparently shortly to be a glorified curry house - but there's a nice walk along the Mersey anyway, but I don't see the area as a huge generator of potential tram traffic.