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Manchester Metrolink master thread

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Regarding Queens Road:-

I suspect Metrolink want it built so there are two replacements for Woodlands Road. That's what rumour of SCC says.

Unfortunately. I will not now be able to attend the TfGM public information event being held later this afternoon at the Irish World Heritage Centre where detailed station plans for the proposed Queens Road stop are supposed to be on view.

What local catchment area passenger loadings in the Queens Road area are likely ?
 
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PR1Berske

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Was going to post exactly the same thing :)

Another date for the diary - a new station as soon as August!
 

Manchester77

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So 2013 will indeed be the big bang!
EML to Droylesdon in February
ORL to Rochdale in Spring
SML to East Didsbury in summer
Queens Road in August
EML to Ashton in winter 13/14

exciting times :D
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Manchester77

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One assumes as it said to replace the existing halt but where will drivers and people access the depot will a replacement be built
 

Lewisham2221

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Thanks for the date that I really couldn't be bothered looking up.
So by that logic, the outside the box modern thinking is an AC OHL Electrified railway like what used to run to Altrincham via Sale and connected to the national network that was thought of some 60 years after trams; hang on a minute......

No, surely the 'outside the box' thinking would be the conversion of the route from heavy rail to light rail, with all the success and benefits that came with it.
 

WatcherZero

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One assumes as it said to replace the existing halt but where will drivers and people access the depot will a replacement be built

Gate with Keypad directly onto the depot from the new platform.

Catchment wise you have the GM Transport Museum, local Irish cultural centre, shopping precinct, Jewish museum and Jewellery quarter and the depot itself.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Gate with Keypad directly onto the depot from the new platform.

Catchment wise you have the GM Transport Museum, local Irish cultural centre, shopping precinct, Jewish museum and Jewellery quarter and the depot itself.

Thank you for your knowledge of these premises as being in that catchment area. Would there have been any other reason, besides the proximity of the Woodlands Road stop (serving a different area of passenger footfall), why the proposed stop at Queens Road, being on a north Manchester arterial road circuit, was never built originally, noting its proximity to the depot.
 

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No, surely the 'outside the box' thinking would be the conversion of the route from heavy rail to light rail, with all the success and benefits that came with it.

As you have proof that that wasn't just from the rail growth in the early 90s and that Metrolink played a major role as trams and that simply having 6tph or 10tph into Manchester from the termini converted wouldn't have had the same effect?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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As you have proof that that wasn't just from the rail growth in the early 90s and that Metrolink played a major role as trams and that simply having 6tph or 10tph into Manchester from the termini converted wouldn't have had the same effect?

Looking at large centres of population, there has been a co-ordinated move into the field of Light Rail:-
Manchester Metrolink
Croydon Tramlink
Sheffield Supertram
Nottingham Express Transit
Midland Metro

.......just to name some that sprang to mind
 
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Lewisham2221

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As you have proof that that wasn't just from the rail growth in the early 90s and that Metrolink played a major role as trams and that simply having 6tph or 10tph into Manchester from the termini converted wouldn't have had the same effect?


Yes, because those heavy rail trains would be rolling through Manchester city centre every few minutes, wouldn't they...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looking at large centres of population, there has been a co-ordinated move into the field of Light Rail:-
Manchester Metrolink
Croydon Tramlink
Sheffield Supertram
Nottingham Express Transit
Midland Metro

.......just to name some that sprang to mind


And which was the first of those listed to beging service? Oh, Metrolink.
 

tbtc

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Looking at large centres of population, there has been a co-ordinated move into the field of Light Rail

I only wish it had been more co-ordinated - we could have had two standard types of light rail vehicle (one high floor for converted railway lines like Manchester, one low floor for brand new developments like Sheffield) which may have helped keep costs down, extend fleets, help newer schemes avoid the mistakes of the first few (all of which may have encouraged further development)... one of those "if only" discusions though.
 

Nym

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Yes, because those heavy rail trains would be rolling through Manchester city centre every few minutes, wouldn't they...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



And which was the first of those listed to beging service? Oh, Metrolink.

Do I need to mention Picc Vic tunnel and that Manc Central is pretty, well, Central...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I only wish it had been more co-ordinated - we could have had two standard types of light rail vehicle (one high floor for converted railway lines like Manchester, one low floor for brand new developments like Sheffield) which may have helped keep costs down, extend fleets, help newer schemes avoid the mistakes of the first few (all of which may have encouraged further development)... one of those "if only" discussions though.

It is not very likely that we will see through running between Sheffield and Manchester, so the difference between these two modes of vehicle provision remains somewhat immaterial on that particular matter, but I do note the general points that you were making in your posting, with regard to the newer schemes still to come to fruition.

Manchester has a fleet which will perform admirably in the operating conditions that so prevail within the confines of the geographical boundaries of the system

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Do I need to mention Picc Vic tunnel and that Manc Central is pretty, well, Central...

Nym, over the countless postings that have been made on this website, concerning the matters that cover the reasons why the Picc-Vic tunnel was never built and the reasons why Manchester Central station will always now keep its current identity as a conference centre et al have been stated by numerous forum members ad nauseum.

So need you mention those two subjects again...NO..<(
 
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Nym

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Nym, over the countless postings that have been made on this website, concerning the matters that cover the reasons why the Picc-Vic tunnel was never built and the reasons why Manchester Central station will always now keep its current identity as a conference centre et al have been stated by numerous forum members ad nauseum.

So need you mention those two subjects again...NO..<(

I'm more trying to draw attention to the fact that Metrolink in it's current form is not the only causal factor to the growth on rail services in the Greater Manchester TTWA, if you look at other, non-metrolink corridors these have also shown significant growth, and with the electrification coming, this could be able to show what a good, frequent, electrified service into Picc / Vic can provide in the way of growth, removing the metrolink factor.

If for example, the upgrades of the Bury and Alty lines was carried out and terminated in Victoria and Central respectively, would we see the services as busy as the current metrolink services? This is actually quite likely....

Would we still have been able to see the Eccles Line, East Manchester Line and the CC route to Victoria? Yes, proberbly. But Victoria would be a terminus where you'd change to Heavy Rail.

So again; is Metrolink the only causal factor in GMTTWA's rail growth, almost cetrainly not, is a light rail system the only way one could have seen this level of growth, also unlikely.

Would we have a significantly higher level of flexibility to allow growth on non-metrolink corridors if it had been built as an improvment of heavy rail routes into Manchester, allowing for additional through services on all lines, and spare immediate capacity for additional services on other routes? Certainly yes... (We could have >6tph on at least three or four other routes (subject to electrification) if we'd have gone with simple Heavy Rail re-alignments and upgrades)
 

tbtc

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I'm more trying to draw attention to the fact that Metrolink in it's current form is not the only causal factor to the growth on rail services in the Greater Manchester TTWA, if you look at other, non-metrolink corridors these have also shown significant growth, and with the electrification coming, this could be able to show what a good, frequent, electrified service into Picc / Vic can provide in the way of growth, removing the metrolink factor.

If for example, the upgrades of the Bury and Alty lines was carried out and terminated in Victoria and Central respectively, would we see the services as busy as the current metrolink services? This is actually quite likely....

Would we still have been able to see the Eccles Line, East Manchester Line and the CC route to Victoria? Yes, proberbly. But Victoria would be a terminus where you'd change to Heavy Rail.

So again; is Metrolink the only causal factor in GMTTWA's rail growth, almost cetrainly not, is a light rail system the only way one could have seen this level of growth, also unlikely.

Would we have a significantly higher level of flexibility to allow growth on non-metrolink corridors if it had been built as an improvment of heavy rail routes into Manchester, allowing for additional through services on all lines, and spare immediate capacity for additional services on other routes? Certainly yes... (We could have >6tph on at least three or four other routes (subject to electrification) if we'd have gone with simple Heavy Rail re-alignments and upgrades)

That's nice, but there was no money for a tunnel under Manchester, dozens of new EMUs etc
 

Nym

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That's nice, but there was no money for a tunnel under Manchester, dozens of new EMUs etc

But there was money for dozens of new EMUs that run at 750V??

The point I was trying to get to (clearly I need to be less subtle) is that a step improvment in heavy rail around Manchester would have been able to sustain continued growth and expansion with a steady stream of investment after the initial capital cost of major junction changes etc.

Eg. increasing from 4 to 6tph with minimal cost of rolling stock etc.
 

tbtc

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But there was money for dozens of new EMUs that run at 750V??

The point I was trying to get to (clearly I need to be less subtle) is that a step improvment in heavy rail around Manchester would have been able to sustain continued growth and expansion with a steady stream of investment after the initial capital cost of major junction changes etc.

Eg. increasing from 4 to 6tph with minimal cost of rolling stock etc.

There was money for cheap trams and the kind of cheap infrastructure improvements required to convert a line to Metrolink (not even converting the platforms to proper light rail ones).

But to compare that with the cost of digging a tunnel under under central Manchester, proper line upgrades, dozens of EMUs (at the time when we were struggling to get any new trains in northern England) seems a waste of time.

Nothing to do with being "subtle", trust me.
 

Nym

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I wasn't on about tunneling for the option of simply improving what's there...

I'll I'd have changed would have been better junctions around Manchester to get services into the terminal platforms where they're needed, and still built the Windsor Link, possibly having some viaducting from Ordsall Lane Jcn to Central.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I'll I'd have changed would have been better junctions around Manchester to get services into the terminal platforms where they're needed, and still built the Windsor Link, possibly having some viaducting from Ordsall Lane Jcn to Central.

Your contention about Manchester Central station providing extra terminal station capacity in Manchester is somewhat negated by the fact that the other matter to which you refer to of the Ordsall Chord that will provide through running of some former services that may well have been subject to being services that would terminate.

Do you see the future rail services in Manchester as needing more terminal station provision ?
 

radamfi

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Cross city services are normally preferred from a capacity point of view. That way you can get away with a 2 track 'core'. Having many services terminating in the city centre means you need a lot of platforms, and you have a problem with trains getting in the way of each other in the 'throat' of the station. Compare the 2 track Thameslink route from St Pancras to Blackfriars to the huge number of platforms at Waterloo.
 

Greybeard33

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I'm more trying to draw attention to the fact that Metrolink in it's current form is not the only causal factor to the growth on rail services in the Greater Manchester TTWA, if you look at other, non-metrolink corridors these have also shown significant growth, and with the electrification coming, this could be able to show what a good, frequent, electrified service into Picc / Vic can provide in the way of growth, removing the metrolink factor.

If for example, the upgrades of the Bury and Alty lines was carried out and terminated in Victoria and Central respectively, would we see the services as busy as the current metrolink services? This is actually quite likely....

Would we still have been able to see the Eccles Line, East Manchester Line and the CC route to Victoria? Yes, proberbly. But Victoria would be a terminus where you'd change to Heavy Rail.

So again; is Metrolink the only causal factor in GMTTWA's rail growth, almost cetrainly not, is a light rail system the only way one could have seen this level of growth, also unlikely.

Would we have a significantly higher level of flexibility to allow growth on non-metrolink corridors if it had been built as an improvment of heavy rail routes into Manchester, allowing for additional through services on all lines, and spare immediate capacity for additional services on other routes? Certainly yes... (We could have >6tph on at least three or four other routes (subject to electrification) if we'd have gone with simple Heavy Rail re-alignments and upgrades)

But there was money for dozens of new EMUs that run at 750V??

The point I was trying to get to (clearly I need to be less subtle) is that a step improvment in heavy rail around Manchester would have been able to sustain continued growth and expansion with a steady stream of investment after the initial capital cost of major junction changes etc.

Eg. increasing from 4 to 6tph with minimal cost of rolling stock etc.
Nym, am I right that you also think the investment in Metrolink conversion of the ORL & SML would have been better spent on a heavy rail upgrade of the Oldham Loop Line and reopening of the Midland Main Line from Throstle Nest to Cheadle Heath (and maybe also from Great Rocks to Matlock)?
 

Nym

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I think that more thought should have been put into the process of why to convert it and the provision of something other than buses during conversion. Serving Oldham TC and Rochdale TC is all well and good. But there would have been better ways to do it. Im really lacking the motivaton and typespace to go through it all again. but a quick look back should reveal my opinions of the oldam loop conversion.

Apologies for poor spelling and structure. sent from mobile after a day of dealing with irritating project managers...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think that more thought should have been put into the process of why to convert it and the provision of something other than buses during conversion. Serving Oldham TC and Rochdale TC is all well and good. But there would have been better ways to do it.

Well, based upon what you say above, would you agree that the location of the former heavy rail railway stations at both Oldham Mumps and at Rochdale were not what you could call "ideally situated" for the town centre of both towns.

Also, to hark back to your belief that Manchester needs more heavy rail terminal platforms in its core inner-city stations, how many new west-facing platforms are in the current plans for Manchester Victoria railway station ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
***************************************************************************************************


With regard to the land occupied by the existing Manchester Metrolink system between Freehold and the current temporary stop at Oldham Mumps, has anyone heard to what use this may be put to when the new line through Oldham Town Centre is up and running, as it has been in railway usage since those long and far-off days since that route came into being. Have Oldham Council made their views known ?
 

Manchester77

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The new track will be ripped up and used on the MAL, with the old heavy rail tracks removed. The OHLE will be used on the MAL too. Signage will be used at the new station in town as will TVMs etc
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The new track will be ripped up and used on the MAL, with the old heavy rail tracks removed. The OHLE will be used on the MAL too. Signage will be used at the new station in town as will TVMs etc

Thanks for this. However, I wondered what was to become of the then-unused land when all what you have stated has occurred. Will it remain in railway ownership or be sold for development purposes. Have any proposals been made about the tunnels ?
 
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