Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[The Planner]

Would have to agree, it is going to need a massive increase in service level to justify 4 tracks. Considering Huyton delivers what is required for Northern Hub then I can't see it happening if at all for 20 years.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's very noticeable with this electrification design that the "one-sided" stanchion, with the wires cantilevered over both tracks, is used more than in the past.
For example they seem to be using it in stations where it avoids having to make holes in the canopy on the other side (as at Prescot).
In Olive Mount cutting there is no clearance for stanchions on the north side, so they have cantilevered everything over from the south side.
Further east, the embankment between Broad Green and Roby is very steep on the north side so again the droppers are being run over from stanchions in easier ground on the south side.
Approaching St Helens, they have avoided all the complications of Pilkingtons sidings on the east side by putting all the stanchions on the west side.
Clever design I think.

 

[Wavertreelad]

There've not been four tracks since the 1970s, I don't think.

Reinstating four tracks now would entail significant redevelopment of the M62 "entrance" at Broad Green, as well as perhaps the partial demolition of Wavertree station. I don't see it happening for a generation at least.

The two tracks on the south side of cutting were converted in the early 70's to sidings for the Rathbone Road coal depot which was roughly on the site of the present Wavertree Tech Station. When the coal depot closed and the Technology Park on the site of Edge Hill depot in 1983 I don't know if the siding were removed immediately as the station did not open till 2000.

Actually four tracks could be reinstated without demolishing the station by using the trackbed of the former Edge Hill flyover by lowering it from Olive Mount Junction back towards Edge Hill. This would require the existing two tracks to be slewed back to the original alignment of the sidings and former fast lines west of the station to the 1960's layout as well as restoring the junction with the London lines which seems unlikely. Another alternative would be restore the flyover which would require the current entrance of the technology park to be moved to Rathbone Road. This alignment might mean trains would not be able to stop at Wavertree TP as I doubt there is sufficient space for platforms, but by restoring the flyover it would allow trains cross the London lines without conflicts and would be especially useful if the scheme to develop the scheme to link the Wapping Tunnel at Edge Hill to the Merseyrail system. The siting of the new masts would not rule out this scheme, although it might mean that Olive Mount junction layout would need to be altered. Perhaps interestingly, the decision to build the ticket office on the bridge above the tracks which allows sufficient clearance for this route to be restored should be noted, although I suspect we are many years away from anything being implemented, if at all.

I must admit to be a little surprised to see that the opportunity had not been taken to place the masts in positions which would allow future capacity growth on this section of the route. Whilst four tracking would have been vastly more expensive, because of the works required at Broad Green and the M62 bridge, it would have been possible to run a third track from existing alignment just east of were the London lines diverge to the south of Wavertree Station to a point just before the bridge over Queens Drive and the M62 but ideally through Broadgreen although I'm note sure there is sufficient clearance.

 

[Class 170101]

Just because there were four tracks historically doesn't mean they can be put back. Given modern standards more land is required for four track formations today than when the West Coast was built. Compare The Trent Valley with Watford to Milton Keynes. The latter looks narrower than the former.

 

[8A Rail]

Just because there were four tracks historically doesn't mean they can be put back. Given modern standards more land is required for four track formations today than when the West Coast was built. Compare The Trent Valley with Watford to Milton Keynes. The latter looks narrower than the former.

That is the reasons for why additonal land at Huyton Junction is wanted, it requires more land for electrification! The existing four track bed is still there but based on the lines from before the 1970's which does not take account of todays changing railway.

 

[Ploughman]

Just because there were four tracks historically doesn't mean they can be put back. Given modern standards more land is required for four track formations today than when the West Coast was built. Compare The Trent Valley with Watford to Milton Keynes. The latter looks narrower than the former.

Thanks for the replies, but not quite the answer to the question I meant.
Am I right in thinking that Olive mount cutting is the access from Edge Hill to Lime st?
If so that is the section I mean as to why this is not 4 track.
2 Tracks for Crewe / Londons etc and 2 for TPE etc

Or am I wrong?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Am I right in thinking that Olive mount cutting is the access from Edge Hill to Lime st?....

Olive Mount Cutting is between Broad Green and Wavertree Technology Park

 

[Ploughman]

Ah my mistake then.

 

[Gareth]

And the section between Lime Street and Edge Hill is four tracks, as is the WCML branch to South Parkway. The stretch between Lime Street and Edge Hill is shockingly pedestrian and as things stand, it'll be part of Liverpool's HS2 service. Yeah...

 

[Wavertreelad]

And the section between Lime Street and Edge Hill is four tracks, as is the WCML branch to South Parkway. The stretch between Lime Street and Edge Hill is shockingly pedestrian and as things stand, it'll be part of Liverpool's HS2 service. Yeah...

Might be a bit quicker after 2016 resignalling scheme for Lime Street that will also see improvements to the station throat and at least one extra platform, platform 6a brought into use. All covered on the Lime Street Station thread.

 

[8A Rail]

Just a quickie as off to bed - trailing crossover located west of Huyton Signal Box now history - replaced over the weekend with straight rails. Also a section of track has been replaced on Liverpool bound platform of Rainhill Station. Other work has taken place over the blockade weekend which I'm sure other members will fill in which probably cover Huyton Junction / Quarry, Lea Green and Earlestown.

Four more updated images uploaded here - https://picasaweb.google.com/104517932653927762904 taken around Roby Station as of 27th April 2014.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just a quickie as off to bed - trailing crossover located west of Huyton Signal Box now history - replaced over the weekend with straight rails. Also a section of track has been replaced on Liverpool bound platform of Rainhill Station. Other work has taken place over the blockade weekend which I'm sure other members will fill in which probably cover Huyton Junction / Quarry, Lea Green and Earlestown.

The unfinished crossovers at Earlestown have been completed, with the new signalling working as well (showing red, at least).
Masts are now appearing on the stretch between Ince Moss and Springs Branch junctions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The first stretch of Phase 2 OHLE has appeared just east of Bryn on the Wigan line.
It appears to be the return wire and stretches about half a mile on the north side of the line.
There's another shorter stretch just west of Bryn.
It's a bit of a surprise that they have started there, as the stretch around Prescot has been apparently "wirable" for some time.

 

[DJH1971]

The unfinished crossovers at Earlestown have been completed, with the new signalling working as well (showing red, at least).
Masts are now appearing on the stretch between Ince Moss and Springs Branch junctions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The first stretch of Phase 2 OHLE has appeared just east of Bryn.
It appears to be the return wire and stretches about half a mile on the north side of the line.

Looks like they've kick started the catenary for phase 2 at last!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like they've kick started the catenary for phase 2 at last!

With 28 route miles to do and about that number of weeks left, they will have to wire a route mile a week to finish on time.

Balfour Beatty are in trouble, though their rail business is "performing as expected".
CEO Andrew McNaughton (formerly Network Rail's Chief Engineer) has left.
BB is being now being run by Steve Marshall (onetime CEO of Railtrack :cry.
Hopefully none of this will impact on their electrification effort.
http://www.balfourbeatty.com/index.asp?pageid=42&newsid=542

 

[DJH1971]

Anyone have pictures of this new development?

 

[Bald Rick]

With 28 route miles to do and about that number of weeks left, they will have to wire a route mile a week to finish on time.

Balfour Beatty are in trouble, though their rail business is "performing as expected".
CEO Andrew McNaughton (formerly Network Rail's Chief Engineer) has left.
BB is being now being run by Steve Marshall (onetime CEO of Railtrack :cry.
Hopefully none of this will impact on their electrification effort.
http://www.balfourbeatty.com/index.asp?pageid=42&newsid=542

It's a different Andrew Mcnaughton. The ex NR Chief engineer is now at HS2.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's a different Andrew Mcnaughton. The ex NR Chief engineer is now at HS2.

So he is. I don't suppose I'm the first to make that mistake...
The BB man's profile has suddenly disappeared from their web site (evidently now an ex-person!).

 

[DJH1971]

Any more wiring come up since then?

 

[DavidL]

There is a similar section of return wiring up at Garswood. It's on the Liverpool platform side and pretty much stops at the platform end towards St Helens while extending a few tens of meters beyond the platform edge towards Bryn.

 

[driver_m]

Line speed goes upto 90 tomorrow from Huyton to Newton le Willows.

 

[BantamMenace]

Line speed goes upto 90 tomorrow from Huyton to Newton le Willows.

What is it currently for us not in the know? Is it a significant increase?

 

[driver_m]

75mph at the moment.

 

[BantamMenace]

And over what mileage is the 15mph increase?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And over what mileage is the 15mph increase?

I believe it is from about MP6.5 (Huyton Quarry) eastwards, or about 9.5 miles to where the current 90mph starts at Newton-le-Willows.
Only the new TP Newcastle service will be able to take advantage of the speed increase until the 319s arrive. Everything else is a 75mph 150/156/142 at the moment west of Earlestown.
Edge Hill-Huyton Quarry line speed will go up after the Roby-Huyton remodelling is finished.

 

[BantamMenace]

I believe it is from about MP6.5 (Huyton Quarry) eastwards, or about 9.5 miles to where the current 90mph starts at Newton-le-Willows.
Only the new TP Newcastle service will be able to take advantage of the speed increase until the 319s arrive. Everything else is a 75mph 150/156/142 at the moment west of Earlestown.
Edge Hill-Huyton Quarry line speed will go up after the Roby-Huyton remodelling is finished.

Apologies for all the questions but once Roby - Huyton is remodelled roughly how many miles of 90mph running will there be?

Is there any scope for this to ever be further increased? What are the key differences in engineering for 90mph compared to 100mph, my feeble knowledge would imagine it to be minimal?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

What are the key differences in engineering for 90mph compared to 100mph, my feeble knowledge would imagine it to be minimal?

Huge: 90mph is already pushing it over the Moss (formation stability)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apologies for all the questions but once Roby - Huyton is remodelled roughly how many miles of 90mph running will there be?

Is there any scope for this to ever be further increased? What are the key differences in engineering for 90mph compared to 100mph, my feeble knowledge would imagine it to be minimal?

According to the NR plan, the speed will go up to 90mph east of MP3 (after the Olive Mount chord runs in), so another 4 miles.
So there will eventually be 18 miles at 90mph (Olive Mount-Astley) with the rest at 75mph.
A 3-mile stretch over Chat Moss was only 60mph, and some of it still is - I'm not sure if/when this will change.

To go from 90 to 100 is more difficult than it sounds.
I'm no expert, but you usually have to upgrade the signalling and level crossings, as well as the track and the OHLE (though the new stuff is supposed to be good for 100mph).
Embankments might need strengthening, and the section over Chat Moss is never going to be fit for high speed as it essentially "floats" over the bog.

Looking at the line as a whole, the bottlenecks will still be at each end, with slow sharply-curved layouts Ordsall Lane-Victoria/Piccadilly and Edge Hill-Lime St.
Both are due to be remodelled soon, but speeds will never be high.

 

[Llama]

Apologies for all the questions but once Roby - Huyton is remodelled roughly how many miles of 90mph running will there be?

Linespeed on the Up Chat Moss line will be 40 then 75 from Bootle Branch Jn as now, it will soon be 80mph for approx one signal section through Broad Green then 90 until the approach to Astley. Speed then drops to 75 then a short 40-over-60 over Astley level crossing and back to 75 til Ordsall Lane Jn. The speed between Newton-le-Willows Jn and the approach to Astley is already 90.

On the Down the linespeed is 75 from Ordsall Lane Jn to Astley, then a short 40-over-60 over Astley level crossing, then a short 75, then 90 until the approach to Newton-le Willows. From July the 90 will be all the way to Olive Mount Jn where the line speed will drop to 65-over-75 for about one signal section, and then 30 at Bootle Branch Jn as now.

Turnouts etc at Huyton Jn will be 45, and turnouts onto the upgraded 'Up & Down Earlestown West' (formerly the Goods) will be 30.

There is currently a 40-over-60 TSR in place between Patricroft and Astley on the Down Chat Moss line where the permissible speed used to be the same, ie whatever work is required to increase the permissible speed seems not to have gone ahead for the Down line yet.

 

[Dunc108]

I used to notice a slight but noticeable change in ride quality on a 156 on a certain section between Patricroft and Astley Crossing. I wasn't sure if it was something to do with the formation or track?

 

[BantamMenace]

Thank you for your replies and explanations.

What is involved in increasing line speeds then? Is it a case of strengthening the foundations beneath the track bed where necessary and then realigning the track itself to shake at as many kinks as possible?

Could a form of 'factory train' be designed to perform these tasks and we one day see a rolling scheme of linespeed improvements as we are currently seeing with electrification.