Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[transmanche]

Wonder when this will happen?

It's possible they may not get vinylled until the next franchise starts in Feb 2016.

(First/Keolis may not want to spend the money unless they win the next franchise.)

 

[DJH1971]

It's possible they may not get vinylled until the next franchise starts in Feb 2016.

(First/Keolis may not want to spend the money unless they win the next franchise.)

Fair point here, but they just look so barren with a proper livery.

 

[WatcherZero]

Dft will probably agree a neutral livery for the extension, similar to the East Coast livery.

 

[transmanche]

Dft will probably agree a neutral livery for the extension, similar to the East Coast livery.

DfT don't see the EC livery and brand identity as 'neutral', they actually place a value on it. Successful bidders for the ICEC franchise are required to sell on the brand at a "fair market value" to any successor.

They are also free to use an alternative brand identity and livery, but unless they sell that on at the end of their franchise, they would be liable for all costs related to removing it.

 

[WatcherZero]

To the contrary, the design of the brand is intentionally plain and neutral to minimise rebranding costs and specifically excludes any Toc logos. The fair market value applies to any new branding that a franchise bidder might create, essentially saying they dont get to keep any IP they create and it must be available to purchase by the following franchise toc or they have to pay the rebranding costs to remove it.

 

[Class 170101]

The new summer tmetable schedules are now available on Realtime Trains and the Manchester to Scotland Electric services are shown with a 350 timing load but at 100mph and not 110mph.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The new summer tmetable schedules are now available on Realtime Trains and the Manchester to Scotland Electric services are shown with a 350 timing load but at 100mph and not 110mph.

I knew they were currently timed for 100mph, in case a 185 has to fill in, but thought they were switching to 110mph in May. Presumably there's been some sort of setback there... Not really much to do with the Manchester-Liverpool electrification though.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought the timing change to 110mph would come later in the year, the initial change is to electric rather than diesel acceleration timings.
There is also some line speed improvements on Chat Moss being done post electrification, not sure when they get integrated into the timings.

 

[Class 170101]

I understood most But not all were going to be 110mph at some point (now probably not before December 2014) but some were to remain at timed as 185s so they can fill in an allow some 350s to run in pairs Fri - Sun.

 

[Manchester77]

I understood most But not all were going to be 110mph at some point (now probably not before December 2014) but some were to remain at timed as 185s so they can fill in an allow some 350s to run in pairs Fri - Sun.

Yes it was mentioned in modern railways that on the busy period from Friday -Monday there would be a one diagram remaining timed for 185s to allow the 350 to be used to form another 8 car set.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

OHLE masts have now reached what used to be the west end of Manchester Exchange station.
Big holes being dug east of the platforms at Victoria.
Bases pretty much complete between the west end of Sankey Viaduct and just west of Huyton Quarry.
Still nothing to report around Earlestown.
A big green box of switchgear has gone in at Astley (autotransformer stuff apparently).

The other amusement today was the huge fire at Ordsall Lane.
It is in a recycling depot just to the south of the line, where the freight terminal was.
The whole depot was fiercely ablaze, only just over the fence from the railway.
Trains were stopped for a while but had resumed when I needed them.
Nevertheless it looked a very dangerous fire, roaring away inside the blackened metal cladding.
TPE's 350s would have maybe their first diversion problem, between Wigan and Oxford Road.
The only alternative electric route would be via Crewe.

Edit: From realtimetrains it seems the 350s were cancelled between Preston and Oxford Road, with the diesels running via Chorley or Wigan/Salford Crescent.

 

[deltic08]

As was to be expected, another bodge-up due to mismanagement and lack of foresight by DafT and TPEx in underordering 350/4s. Two more sets would probably have been enough for an all electric service to Scotland and that would have cascaded down to offer more seats in the peaks around Northern cities or allow withdrawal of four Pacers.

Is it too late to add two 350/4 sets on the end of the 350/3 order or convert two 350/3s to 350/4s by just seat reconfiguration? This would mean a shortfall in EMUs in the Birmingham area but this would be corrected early next year by cascading two 323 sets from Northern when the 319s reach Manchester.

 

[YorkshireBear]

As was to be expected, another bodge-up due to mismanagement and lack of foresight by DafT and TPEx in underordering 350/4s. Two more sets would probably have been enough for an all electric service to Scotland and that would have cascaded down to offer more seats in the peaks around Northern cities or allow withdrawal of four Pacers.

Is it too late to add two 350/4 sets on the end of the 350/3 order or convert two 350/3s to 350/4s by just seat reconfiguration? This would mean a shortfall in EMUs in the Birmingham area but this would be corrected early next year by cascading two 323 sets from Northern when the 319s reach Manchester.

How exactly are we supposed to withdraw pacers when Northern services leave people on platforms in a morning? When a new service is needed from May 2014 for the Todmorden Curve?

 

[WatcherZero]

As was to be expected, another bodge-up due to mismanagement and lack of foresight by DafT and TPEx in underordering 350/4s. Two more sets would probably have been enough for an all electric service to Scotland and that would have cascaded down to offer more seats in the peaks around Northern cities or allow withdrawal of four Pacers.

Is it too late to add two 350/4 sets on the end of the 350/3 order or convert two 350/3s to 350/4s by just seat reconfiguration? This would mean a shortfall in EMUs in the Birmingham area but this would be corrected early next year by cascading two 323 sets from Northern when the 319s reach Manchester.

The contract option was upto 20 units, they took the full twenty splitting them 50/50, had heard though at one point TPE was only going to get 8 of them!

 

[deltic08]

Thank you WatcherZero. That is what I feared.

YorkshireBear. You must learn to be less aggressive in your replies.

I have noticed this with your replies to other postings that you disagree with as if we are all idiots. You may have a qualification involving transport but some of us have had a lifelong involvement in transport issues.

In my post I gave the option of more seats or withdrawal of the most awful trains ever built for our railway. Admittedly I omitted to give a timescale but they all have to go by 2020 starting in 2015 as 319s are cascaded north.

After fifteen years commuting on the Harrogate line, introduction of Pacers in the mid 1980s is the reason I went back to commuting by car into Leeds as did a lot of others on the Harrogate route. My regular evening train of 5 or 6 car DMU was replaced with a 3 or 4 car Pacer. Returning home one dark stormy evening, the door I was standing next to on a 141 suddenly blew open then one half blew off crossing Arthington Viaduct at 60mph. Had it not been for a convenient handrail, I would not have been writing this now. Lack of First Class seating caused many to change to Jags and BMWs as they were prepared to pay extra daily for the comfort and almost guaranteed seat in the peaks that First Class offered compared to low-backed bus seats forced on them. The customer knows best as he votes with his feet and wallet.

Withdrawal of all Pacers can't come soon enough, Todmorden Curve or not. Pacers are the least suitable trains to be travelling in around 20mph curves. Better quality trains may result in an increase in commuting by rail and not before time.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would hate for you to see me when i was actually being aggressive then. My reply was based on this thread, which is full of stories of trains being full and new services needed so i was rather confused as to how you could suggest two new trains could withdraw four pacers.....

I have no qualification involving transport and never have claimed to.

I imagine if you think i am being aggressive others do so too so i think that will be my leave from the forum for the time being....

 

[Starmill]

Thank you WatcherZero. That is what I feared.

YorkshireBear. You must learn to be less aggressive in your replies or you will die prematurely. Is that why you call yourself a Bear?

I have noticed this with your replies to other postings that you disagree with as if we are all idiots. You may have a qualification involving transport but some of us have had a lifelong involvement in transport issues.

In my post I gave the option of more seats or withdrawal of the most awful trains ever built for our railway. Admittedly I omitted to give a timescale but they all have to go by 2020 starting in 2015 as 319s are cascaded north.

After fifteen years commuting on the Harrogate line, introduction of Pacers in the mid 1980s is the reason I went back to commuting by car into Leeds as did a lot of others on the Harrogate route. My regular evening train of 5 or 6 car DMU was replaced with a 3 or 4 car Pacer. Returning home one dark stormy evening, the door I was standing next to on a 141 suddenly blew open then one half blew off crossing Arthington Viaduct at 60mph. Had it not been for a convenient handrail, I would not have been writing this now. Lack of First Class seating caused many to change to Jags and BMWs as they were prepared to pay extra daily for the comfort and almost guaranteed seat in the peaks that First Class offered compared to low-backed bus seats forced on them. The customer knows best as he votes with his feet and wallet.

Withdrawal of all Pacers can't come soon enough, Todmorden Curve or not. Pacers are the least suitable trains to be travelling in around 20mph curves. Better quality trains may result in an increase in commuting by rail and not before time.

Forget your nonsense about him being aggressive, you need to be more respectful - what exactly is 'you will die prematurely' supposed to mean?

For what it's worth I do agree with you that many people are reluctant to make trips or do not travel by rail because of the chance a 'really bad' train will turn up, most pacers being such, but especially 142s. I know some of my friends know 142s as 'the disgusting trains' and ask me what the chance of the train they wish to take being one is! Of course, if it's a Northern service I cannot generally give a definitive answer!

 

[deltic08]

YorkshireBear. I thought I read somewhere on the Forum that you wrote a paper on a rail topic at Uni in Leeds. If I am wrong, I apologise.

My logic was 8 new class 350 carriages additional to the ten sets already ordered equals three class 185 units equals four 2-car Pacers withdrawn.

I will withdraw instead. You contribute more and obviously enjoy this Forum more. I always read but irregularly post.

 

[DJH1971]

OHLE masts have now reached what used to be the west end of Manchester Exchange station.
Big holes being dug east of the platforms at Victoria.
Bases pretty much complete between the west end of Sankey Viaduct and just west of Huyton Quarry.
Still nothing to report around Earlestown.
A big green box of switchgear has gone in at Astley (autotransformer stuff apparently).

The other amusement today was the huge fire at Ordsall Lane.
It is in a recycling depot just to the south of the line, where the freight terminal was.
The whole depot was fiercely ablaze, only just over the fence from the railway.
Trains were stopped for a while but had resumed when I needed them.
Nevertheless it looked a very dangerous fire, roaring away inside the blackened metal cladding.
TPE's 350s would have maybe their first diversion problem, between Wigan and Oxford Road.
The only alternative electric route would be via Crewe.

Edit: From realtimetrains it seems the 350s were cancelled between Preston and Oxford Road, with the diesels running via Chorley or Wigan/Salford Crescent.

Whilst travelling into Manchester on Saturday, I noticed a few cylindrical objects placed trackside just before the Sankey Viaduct that were similar to those put up around the Astley area over a year ago.

 

[Class377/5]

A phrase for our occasional poster, assume will make an ass out u and me.

Yorkshire, don't change your posting. Your just honest and care about how things are playing out.

 

[DJH1971]

A phrase for our occasional poster, assume will make an ass out u and me.

Yorkshire, don't change your posting. Your just honest and care about how things are playing out.

Any 'nodding donkeys' got rid off has to be a good thing!

 

[Manchester77]

My logic was 8 new class 350 carriages additional to the ten sets already ordered equals three class 185 units equals four 2-car Pacers withdrawn.

I will withdraw instead. You contribute more and obviously enjoy this Forum more. I always read but irregularly post.

But there aren't enough TPE electric routes to use them on, sure a couple of extra units would be be handy to allow longer trains and maybe even cascade one extra 185 but there aren't enough routes for a further 8. The only time 185s will operate on the 350 routes is in 6 car formation to allow another 8 car service to operate.

Even if 3 185s could somehow be cascaded (don't know how though) they would surely be used to strengthen TPEs busy services and cover for their loss of 170s from May 15?

I'm sorry it just doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[snail]

I'm sorry it just doesn't really make sense to me.

But this is the internet! Everything makes sense to the armchair experts. And the DfT have an unlimited pot of money to spend on new trains.

PS I agree with you really. Better a double 142 than nothing when I'm commuting to work.

 

[Manchester77]

But this is the internet! Everything makes sense to the armchair experts. And the DfT have an unlimited pot of money to spend on new trains.

Ah of course, have AC 444s been mentioned as the solution yet?

 

[deltic08]

Manchester77, having said I will not post again, I must just restate what I said for clarification. An additional 8 carriages, 2 sets not 8, would allow cascade of 2 or3x185 sets to allow withdrawal of 4x2 car Pacers. I was assuming that displaced TPEx 170s would be transferred to Northern for use on the Settle-Carlisle or Leeds-Nottingham run.

It is an absolute disgrace that the North is losing 170s to London when our trains are bulging with overcrowding. I hope they are returned when Gospel Oak-Barking is electrified.

 

[Class377/5]

Manchester77, having said I will not post again, I must just restate what I said for clarification. An additional 8 carriages, 2 sets not 8, would allow cascade of 2 or3x185 sets to allow withdrawal of 4x2 car Pacers. I was assuming that displaced TPEx 170s would be transferred to Northern for use on the Settle-Carlisle or Leeds-Nottingham run.

It is an absolute disgrace that the North is losing 170s to London when our trains are bulging with overcrowding. I hope they are returned when Gospel Oak-Barking is electrified.

As this been stated before this will never happen so the 10x 350/4 are all you can get. An further orders are required to be the Desiro City model. The 350/4 order is simply a left over opinion on the 350/3 order LM has had arranged since 2008 with. maximum 20 units/80 carriages only.

Continue to use another order is to ignore the reality that its not to happen unless you start from scratch with a new order and there's no way that's going to happen.

By the time Gospel Oak to Barking you won't need those train as you'll have an electrified Transpennie route and most of the 319s to cascade. What you call a disgrace is simply the market acting as no business is willing to risk investment in millions on the whim of the government.

 

[WatcherZero]

I understand Transport Scotland has some options for more 380's but no one else can order them in that configuration either.

 

[Class377/5]

I understand Transport Scotland has some options for more 380's but no one else can order them in that configuration either.

Er why not? Been stated that Siemens are offering the Desiro City in 20m Class 700 or 23m Class 380 variants so that's not true. Don't forget the 380 is a Desiro City body with Desiro UK traction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Er why not? Been stated that Siemens are offering the Desiro City in 20m Class 700 or 23m Class 380 variants so that's not true. Don't forget the 380 is a Desiro City body with Desiro UK traction.

The 380s are owned by Eversholt (was HSBC), so they are probably the people holding any contract options.
Options expire though. It's 3 years or more since the last one was built.

 

[Class377/5]

The 380s are owned by Eversholt (was HSBC), so they are probably the people holding any contract options.
Options expire though. It's 3 years or more since the last one was built.

Yes they hold the option on 380 additional units but they don't control Siemens ability to make more.