Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[iandavid59]

Can anyone confirm the proposed 9 day blockade between Liverpool Lime Street and Earlestown and Wigan North Western in July 2014 for Huyton Jn to Roby remodelling. St. Helens resignalling.

 

[deltic08]

In my post I suggested reconfiguring seating in 2x 350/3 units leaving eight units for Midland. 100mph 350s are not the most suitable units for Birmingham Cross-City services. The shortfall made up by transferring 2x323 units to Midland when 319s arrive with Northern later in 2014.

Would somebody like to shoot down this possibility?

 

[Manchester77]

Manchester77, having said I will not post again, I must just restate what I said for clarification. An additional 8 carriages, 2 sets not 8, would allow cascade of 2 or3x185 sets to allow withdrawal of 4x2 car Pacers. I was assuming that displaced TPEx 170s would be transferred to Northern for use on the Settle-Carlisle or Leeds-Nottingham run.

It is an absolute disgrace that the North is losing 170s to London when our trains are bulging with overcrowding. I hope they are returned when Gospel Oak-Barking is electrified.

While it would allow for an all electric service (as opposed to the current mostly electric with a few diesel strengtheners) it wouldn't cascade any 185s and even if they did they'd stay with TPE not go to northern. If they did go to Northern I don't understand why your so keen on getting rid of more trains from this region, northern are pushed for stock as it is so getting rid of 4 pacers isn't a good idea. They'd probably end up getting leased by another TOC anyway so the objective of withdrawing pacers is defeated.

In my post I suggested reconfiguring seating in 2x 350/3 units leaving eight units for Midland. 100mph 350s are not the most suitable units for Birmingham Cross-City services. The shortfall made up by transferring 2x323 units to Midland when 319s arrive with Northern later in 2014.
Would somebody like to shoot down this possibility?

It's not the case of the /3s working cross city services it's the case that they'll allow an internal fleet cascade which will allow /2s to operate them (2+3 seating layout). This will leave london midland with an extra 10 units for WCML 110 services and the /2s to be shared between the two services.

323s wouldn't transfer from Manchester services as TfGM funded CCTV fitting to the units and so would not be too pleased to see their investment head southbound.

 

[deltic08]

Manchester 77,
I didn't say 185s would be transferred. I said the TPEx Class 170s displaced from the Hull service by 185s displaced by 350s, are being transferred to Chiltern. I was hoping these units would stay in the North for Northerns longer distance services so that either the same number of Pacers would be available for strengthening or scrapping by further cascading.
Can't think of any TOC who would willingly want Pacers, not even Arriva Wales. Who would you suggest?

Yes, that is what I said. 100mph 350s, not 110mph 350s, are less suitable on the Cross City line compared to 323s due to higher gearing reducing acceleration on low speed, short hop journeys.

Was unaware of TfGM paying for CCTV in 323s, but surely this will be repaid by 319s being CCTV fitted when arriving at Northern.

 

[Manchester77]

Manchester 77,
I didn't say 185s would be transferred. I said the TPEx Class 170s displaced from the Hull service by 185s displaced by 350s, are being transferred to Chiltern. I was hoping these units would stay in the North for Northerns longer distance services so that either the same number of Pacers would be available for strengthening or scrapping by further cascading.
Can't think of any TOC who would willingly want Pacers, not even Arriva Wales. Who would you suggest?
Yes, that is what I said. 100mph 350s, not 110mph 350s, are less suitable on the Cross City line compared to 323s due to higher gearing reducing acceleration on low speed, short hop journeys.
Was unaware of TfGM paying for CCTV in 323s, but surely this will be repaid by 319s being CCTV fitted when arriving at Northern.

You implied that the 185s would be cascaded to a different TOC to replace pacers. Any TOC would want pacers since most are desperate for trains, I can think of ATW, FGW to begin with who'd want these 142s since both need more capacity.

The 319s would have CCTV fitted as part of the ROSCO refurbishment not a PTE meaning that it would not be repaid by TfGM.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You implied that the 185s would be cascaded to a different TOC to replace pacers. Any TOC would want pacers since most are desperate for trains, I can think of ATW, FGW to begin with who'd want these 142s since both need more capacity.

But they can't afford them.
Also 185s can't go "anywhere" because they have dedicated depots run by Siemens.
Northern is about the only practical alternative, using existing depots.
170s are more flexible as more of the country can service them.

 

[ed1971]

In my post I gave the option of more seats or withdrawal of the most awful trains ever built for our railway. Admittedly I omitted to give a timescale but they all have to go by 2020 starting in 2015 as 319s are cascaded north.

After fifteen years commuting on the Harrogate line, introduction of Pacers in the mid 1980s is the reason I went back to commuting by car into Leeds as did a lot of others on the Harrogate route. My regular evening train of 5 or 6 car DMU was replaced with a 3 or 4 car Pacer. Returning home one dark stormy evening, the door I was standing next to on a 141 suddenly blew open then one half blew off crossing Arthington Viaduct at 60mph. Had it not been for a convenient handrail, I would not have been writing this now. Lack of First Class seating caused many to change to Jags and BMWs as they were prepared to pay extra daily for the comfort and almost guaranteed seat in the peaks that First Class offered compared to low-backed bus seats forced on them. The customer knows best as he votes with his feet and wallet.

Withdrawal of all Pacers can't come soon enough, Todmorden Curve or not. Pacers are the least suitable trains to be travelling in around 20mph curves. Better quality trains may result in an increase in commuting by rail and not before time.

1st generation DMUs were terrible. Those that do not remember the introduction of Pacers & Sprinters in the mid 1980s, do not remember just how terrible passenger travel was on regional and secondary rail services prior to their introduction. Wheezy, noisy and smelly old DMUs and clapped out diesel locos hauling dirty, threadbare ageing MK2 coaches. Poor reliability, slow timings, uncomfortable seating, cold and draughty saloons, dirty and smelly interiors, simply awful. It almost didn't matter how limited the new Pacers were; a new, clean bright train that would easily accelerate up to 75mph, rather than clattering along and barely creeping above 60mph was going to be welcomed. The introduction of Pacers was not universally welcomed, even at the time. The fact that they are now viewed in such a poor light only underlines just how regular passengers felt about 1st generation DMUs at the time of their withdrawal. It's too easy to look back through rose tinted spectacles at what we no longer have, but nostalgia does not inform the discussion. BR did not have a bottomless money pit to call upon, but compared to what went before, the Pacers were an improvement. Compared to the old Class 104s for example, the Class 144 Pacer units are much better. Back in the 1980s, the demise of the old DMUs didn't come fast enough for me.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

1st generation DMUs were terrible. totally agree

----clapped out diesel locos hauling dirty, threadbare ageing MK2 coaches. Ahhrrr but for a haulage freak like me they were wonderful.

The introduction of Pacers was not universally welcomed, even at the time. The fact that they are now viewed in such a poor light only underlines just how regular passengers felt about 1st generation DMUs at the time of their withdrawal.

I agree

----compared to what went before, the Pacers were an improvement. Compared to the old Class 104s for example, the Class 144 pacer units are much better. Back in the 1980s, the demise of the old DMUs didn't come fast enough for me.
100% agree

Great post - I hated the old DMUs - I remember going on the Class 140 Railbus

 

[8A Rail]

Great post - I hated the old DMUs - I remember going on the Class 140 Railbus

My understanding the Class 140 Railbus was part of the 2nd generation units not first. But regardless still horrible along with its sisters Class 142's even allowing for the improvements thay have had over the years - sooner they get scrapped the better, give me a 1st generation DMU anytime before them!

With regards to the remainder of the 2nd generation units, they are vast improvement on the old order especially ride wise. My particular favourites were the Class 155's - at least the seats lined up with the windows unlike the other classes. Regardless I do miss the front view of the 1st generation DMU's.

 

[ed1971]

Great post - I hated the old DMUs - I remember going on the Class 140 Railbus

Thanks for your comments, GRALISTAIR. I feel that the increase in the number of passengers on a number of routes does call for the return of loco haulage in some cases.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My understanding the Class 140 Railbus was part of the 2nd generation units not first. But regardless still horrible along with its sisters Class 142's even allowing for the improvements thay have had over the years - sooner they get scrapped the better, give me a 1st generation DMU anytime before them!

With regards to the remainder of the 2nd generation units, they are vast improvement on the old order especially ride wise. My particular favourites were the Class 155's - at least the seats lined up with the windows unlike the other classes. Regardless I do miss the front view of the 1st generation DMU's.

I have to admit that I too miss the front view that the old DMUs provided. I used to travel a lot on the Wigan NW to Liverpool LS services in the early 1980s. It was always a Class 108. Later some Class 115 Suburbans appeared as well. From what I gather, Allerton depot provided the units for this route and that is why no other classes of DMUs appeared on it, as they only had these.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Great post - I hated the old DMUs - I remember going on the Class 140 Railbus

Did you ever travel on any of the Class 101 units ?

I still have fond memories in my very much more younger days of the British Rail Derby lightweight units with more window spaces that were ever to be found on the old ex-LMS (or even ex-LYR) 3rd class non-corridor compartment coaching stock that were still running out the the Red Bank carriage sidings in Manchester in the 1950's.

 

[ed1971]

Did you ever travel on any of the Class 101 units ?

I still have fond memories in my very much more younger days of the British Rail Derby lightweight units with more window spaces that were ever to be found on the old ex-LMS 3rd class non-corridor compartment coaching stock that were still running out the the Red Bank carriage sidings in Manchester in the 1950's.

Yes Paul, I travelled on loads of Class 101s. The last ones only disappeared from Manchester in December 1993. If my memory serves me right, the original Class 101s had AEC engines, the Class 102s had Leyland 680s. The AEC engines were largely replaced by Leylands in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The 102s were then reclassified as 101s. There were also the similar looking Class 111s that had Rolls Royce C6 engines like the 110s. These could be identified as the destination display window was lower down.

 

[deltic08]

I completely agree with 8A Rail about first generation DMUs. I can't understand anyone preferring a Pacer to a Mk2d,e or f but there you go. It must be an age thing. A Class 47+6 can accelerate as fast as a Pacer and continue beyond 75mph if line speed allows. Mk2s are far more crashworthy with monocoque construction.

I stopped travelling by rail on certain routes since the demise of loco-hauled on Cross Country and trans-Pennine and only travelled once on the Leeds-Carlisle line. If I can't find a reasonably priced Intercity quality service with First Class seating then I just drive. Period.

 

[Wavertreelad]

A Class 124 storming through Broadgreen always looked more impressive than other DMU then or since for me.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A Class 124 storming through Broadgreen always looked more impressive than other DMU then or since for me.

Indeed, those were the days when you could ride in a 5 or 6 car DMU in the North of England. And they had very nice looking front ends also.

 

[tom1649]

Yes Paul, I travelled on loads of Class 101s. The last ones only disappeared from Manchester in December 1993.

Last ones ran in Manchester in December 2003.

 

[transmanche]

I have to admit that I too miss the front view that the old DMUs provided.

Come up to Tyne & Wear, you can get a lovely front view on the Metro!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Did you ever travel on any of the Class 101 units ?

My spotter days were 1970 - 1990 - but still did Railtours after that. I have travelled on EVERY multiple unit that BR had at the time. So yes I have countless mileage on 101s.

When Crewe -Cardiff went Class 37/4 Haulage I was in ecstasy -anyway - enough - this thread is starting to get way off topic. I am looking forward to doing Manchester-Blackpool on an EMU

 

[ed1971]

Last ones ran in Manchester in December 2003.

I meant 2003. Typing error!

 

[Greybeard33]

Commuting between Hitchin and Hatfield pre-electrification, what I hated most about the 1st-gen DMUs was making the choice between
a) being deafened and having your teeth shaken out in the overcrowded (because No Smoking) motor car, or
b) being poisoned by cigarette smoke in the quieter, smoother trailer car.
When possible, I used to time journeys so as to use instead the services operated by decrepit slam-door, corridor-less stock hauled by a 31. Acceleration was not bad with half a dozen lightly loaded carriages.

When the brand new 313s and 312s arrived, it was a giant leap forward in speed and comfort levels!

 

[ianhr]

When the brand new 313s and 312s arrived, it was a giant leap forward in speed and comfort levels!

Some people have complained about the 319s being old and shabby but imagine the transformation passengers are going to see on the Liverpool-Wigan line when they replace PACERS! Hopefully from Dec this year.

When slam door 308s from the Tilbury lines replaced Pacers in West Yorks in 1995 people thought they were NEW TRAINS!

The current standards of passenger comfort offered by DMUs in the North is abysmal and way below what is now acceptable in any developed country, with the possible exception of the 158s. Having said that the current stock WAS a big improvement on the first generation DMUs when it was introduced but that was almost 30 years ago!

 

[Whistler40145]

IMHO the Class 319s just need an internal clean, then when they've got sufficient units in place, then give them a more thorough refurbishment.

Customers should be happy enough with that.

 

[ianhr]

IMHO the Class 319s just need an internal clean, then when they've got sufficient units in place, then give them a more thorough refurbishment.

Customers should be happy enough with that.

Agreed. I would forget about expensive upgrades like a/c for the time being, and concentrate efforts on getting as many EMUs as possible into traffic, and re-deploy or scrap the DMUs. Although they should not scrap anything until overcrowding problems are resolved.

 

[DJH1971]

IMHO the Class 319s just need an internal clean, then when they've got sufficient units in place, then give them a more thorough refurbishment.

Customers should be happy enough with that.

Any news on them being fitted with air con as previously mooted?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Any news on them being fitted with air con as previously mooted?

The only clue is a note in Modern Railways this month (p16) about the Northern franchise renegotiation.
It said that "at least four" rolling stock options for the electric services out of Liverpool were under discussion.
I wouldn't hold your breath for upgrades in the short term.
It's more likely for the long franchise starting in 2016, when the bidders/ROSCOs will determine the remaining life span of whatever stock they propose.

 

[Class377/5]

The only clue is a note in Modern Railways this month (p16) about the Northern franchise renegotiation.
It said that "at least four" rolling stock options for the electric services out of Liverpool were under discussion.
I wouldn't hold your breath for upgrades in the short term.
It's more likely for the long franchise starting in 2016, when the bidders/ROSCOs will determine the remaining life span of whatever stock they propose.

According to some from Modern Railways, the 319s have been selected (in limited numbers from December) with no major work under this franchise.

Note the 319s have just been under a deep clean with the first examples released refurbished around 5 years ago.

 

[DJH1971]

It appears excavations for mast bases are now in place between Roby and Huyton, upon travelling into Liverpool today.

 

[8A Rail]

It appears excavations for mast bases are now in place between Roby and Huyton, upon travelling into Liverpool today.

Not that many at moment but other observations today, that between the new Roby Junction and Wavertree Technology Park Stations, most of the masts have now stanchions across with the exception of a handful in Olive Mount Cutting. I wonder whether the remaining few will appear tonight or in the couple of days?

Work continues at Roby Station were the old platform retaining walls for platform 3 & 4 are definitely history, gradually being replaced by new foundations and walls, certainly both platforms (and platform 1 and 2) will not have ramps either. No further trackwork has taken place since my last visit other than mounds of ballast and stacks of concrete sleepers ready for the next stage.

Will post some images a little later on my Pisca site - now done: - https://picasaweb.google.com/104517932653927762904/LMElectrificationWorkMerseyside2014 last five images.

 

[Bevan Price]

1st generation DMUs were terrible. Those that do not remember the introduction of Pacers & Sprinters in the mid 1980s, do not remember just how terrible passenger travel was on regional and secondary rail services prior to their introduction. Wheezy, noisy and smelly old DMUs and clapped out diesel locos hauling dirty, threadbare ageing MK2 coaches. Poor reliability, slow timings, uncomfortable seating, cold and draughty saloons, dirty and smelly interiors, simply awful. It almost didn't matter how limited the new Pacers were; a new, clean bright train that would easily accelerate up to 75mph, rather than clattering along and barely creeping above 60mph was going to be welcomed. The introduction of Pacers was not universally welcomed, even at the time. The fact that they are now viewed in such a poor light only underlines just how regular passengers felt about 1st generation DMUs at the time of their withdrawal. It's too easy to look back through rose tinted spectacles at what we no longer have, but nostalgia does not inform the discussion. BR did not have a bottomless money pit to call upon, but compared to what went before, the Pacers were an improvement. Compared to the old Class 104s for example, the Class 144 Pacer units are much better. Back in the 1980s, the demise of the old DMUs didn't come fast enough for me.

Comfort and appearance is a matter of personal opinion. The 1st generation dmus were a mixed lot - some were smooth riding & comfortable, others had uncomfortable seats or incessantly rattling windows in particular the early batches of Cravens units, later Class 105.).

In terms of comfort, classes 123 and 124 beat anything built since. Classes 119 and 120 were also comfortable, but were under-powered, with pathetic acceleration. Unfortunately, many departed after less than 25 to 30 years, due, I believe, to problems with asbestos, and/or corroding bodywork - someone decided new build units would be more economical than trying to remedy problems in ageing units.

Returning to electrification, a driver told me that Northern hope to receive at least one or two 319s by May, so that driver training can commence.

 

[Grumpy]

In terms of comfort, classes 123 and 124 beat anything built since. .

Well I might suggest the 158's and 17X's as an exception to that. They ride better, and the aircon gives a quieter journey and better temperature (assuming maintained and working of course).

The old units had nice first class seats (although twice as many as needed) but the old second class compartment bench seats with no armrests (to allow four a side in the compartments) were pretty uncomfortable. Indeed travelling through tunnels in a second class compartment with the window open and the noise and fumes bouncing off the tunnel walls and in through the windows was pretty grim.

And as a result of the unreliable Leyland Albion engines they were often substituted by an uncomfortable 3 car suburban DMU on the Western or on the TP service by a MetCam driving car which couldn't gangway connect with the rest of the train.

Apart from that I agree.