Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[The Planner]

If you were a betting man that would be well worth a punt...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why not extend a Euston to Piccadilly service through to Liverpool Lime Street.

It's not in their franchise spec. A host of other TOCs would object.
They could run through from the south that way but not pick up westbound or drop off eastbound at MAN without upsetting TP/NT/EM and the DfT.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well theres no direct departures from Manchester to Liverpool after 10:07, if they added one from their services that arrived in Manchester at around 11pm or 2am (okay probably not many passengers at that time but a few late night revellers?) you could argue it wouldnt be abstracting but would be new passengers whilst making efficent use of the stock.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It'd possibly have to wait until after the 'Hub' is finished too, at least before it can happen in the peaks- which is when a 9/11-car Manchester-Liverpool run would be most useful!

 

[edwin_m]

I think you need a shunt to reach Edge Hill depot from the Huyton direction, or run via Lime St.
Currently there are several overnight ECS runs from Preston/Lancaster to Longsight/Edge Hill, all running via Crewe (reverse) except one which uses a 57 and runs via Ordsall Lane.
Potentially the Longsight ones could all run direct via Chat Moss, or Bolton when finished.
The Edge Hill one might have to continue via Crewe because of the shunt.

There don't appear to be any regular ECS runs between Longsight and Edge Hill.
There will inevitably be VT passenger services Liverpool-Euston via Earlestown during engineering diversions (via Manchester or Warrington).

If one ran from Preston to Edge Hill via Huyton after electrification then it would end up in reverse formation. This would probably be a real pain if for any reason it couldn't start out from Preston in the morning, as there are few places it can be reversed during the day.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If one ran from Preston to Edge Hill via Huyton after electrification then it would end up in reverse formation. This would probably be a real pain if for any reason it couldn't start out from Preston in the morning, as there are few places it can be reversed during the day.

Yes I'd forgotten that.
Conversely, Crewe-Earlestown-Longsight becomes a route on which you can turn Pendolinos trains if needed, without having to go to Birmingham or Glasgow.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes I'd forgotten that.
Conversely, Crewe-Earlestown-Longsight becomes a route on which you can turn Pendolinos trains if needed, without having to go to Birmingham or Glasgow.

Yes indeed, along with various other permutations in the same area. However, unlike reversal at Newcastle on the ECML, all of these new ones take a lot of extra time so probably can't be done until the train in question has finished its service day. Even the existing turnarounds at Birmingham and Glasgow would introduce a significant delay if used on a passenger journey.

 

[terryc]

If one ran from Preston to Edge Hill via Huyton after electrification then it would end up in reverse formation. This would probably be a real pain if for any reason it couldn't start out from Preston in the morning, as there are few places it can be reversed during the day.

If it ran via Golborne rather than via St Helens Central, then there is the opportunity to reverse direction on either the Lowton / Parkside / Newton le Willows junction triangle, or the Earlestown triangle before it got to Edge hill. If it then ran back to preston direct, it would be in the correct formation.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If it ran via Golborne rather than via St Helens Central, then there is the opportunity to reverse direction on either the Lowton / Parkside / Newton le Willows junction triangle, or the Earlestown triangle before it got to Edge hill. If it then ran back to preston direct, it would be in the correct formation.

Erm.....

If first class is at the 'south end' leaving Preston and the train heads to Newton to reverse, the first class will be at the rear heading to Liverpool and hence it will be at the 'south end' at Edge Hill. The only way for first class to be at the 'south end' at Preston the next day would be to either run via, and reverse at, Crewe or follow the path used to get it to Edge Hill in the first place (reverse at Newton again).

Of course, if you wanted to run via Earlestown and have the first class at the 'south end' of Edge Hill yard, you could just send it from Preston to Warrington Bank Quay and reverse it there, but then, why would you want to reverse a train twice just to get it in the yard when you can reverse it once at Crewe?

 

[SeanG]

What is wrong with having First Class at the north end, surely that is better than no service?

Oh no, sorry, I forgot, it would be the end of the world if all the posh 1st classers actually had to walk anywhere at Euston....

 

[Wavertreelad]

Surely the point of a "multiple unit" formation is that there is no need to turn the train?

But could a simple solution for the Liverpool end be electrify a short section of the Bootle branch?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What is wrong with having First Class at the north end, surely that is better than no service?

Oh no, sorry, I forgot, it would be the end of the world if all the posh 1st classers actually had to walk anywhere at Euston....

Tbh, I was thinking more about the people who actually use the signs on stations that tell them where to stand for which coach (or part of the train), but far be it for me to stand in the way of your dislike of people who pay more to travel the same distance....

 

[WatcherZero]

Easily handled by a platform announcement notifying the change in formation for that service.

 

[edwin_m]

Reverse formation doesn't really cause a problem on the Midland where the geometry of Derby and Nottingham makes it pretty much inevitable and most of the regulars are on the lookout for it. By contrast it's a bigger problem on the ECML because I believe Bounds Green depot is laid out with all the equipment needed to service 91s located at the north end. For the WCML I don't suppose there is any major technical problem with trains running back to front but passengers won't really be expecting it. Everyone having to trudge down to the other end of the platform is an avoidable cause of delay, and if they all just boarded the wrong end of the train and tried to walk through in both directions then it would be pretty uncomfortable for everyone.

 

[NvrMndTBikeShp]

It's all costing way to much and would have been cheaper to do under BR but... I think it's fantastic that they are finally giving the North the Railway it deserves. I hope the 319 refurb is deep! Although anything is better than a 142. (Except a 141!)

 

[deltic08]

I think BikeShop means Northwest. Still a lot to be done in the Northeast between Sheffield and Newcastle to rid us of Pacers.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The new TPE electric trains appear to be out in force (I'm guessing for staff training) - I saw a couple while travelling between Oxenholme and Preston yesterday. If anyone's interested I got a couple of pictures of one at Preston, with the new gray livery.

I'm also quite curious to know what the internal furnishing in the 3rd pic and the external structure in the 4th pic are?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Easily handled by a platform announcement notifying the change in formation for that service.

You'd think so wouldn't you.:roll:

 

[edwin_m]

The new TPE electric trains appear to be out in force (I'm guessing for staff training) - I saw a couple while travelling between Oxenholme and Preston yesterday. If anyone's interested I got a couple of pictures of one at Preston, with the new gray livery.

I'm also quite curious to know what the internal furnishing in the 3rd pic and the external structure in the 4th pic are?

Third pic looks like some sort of parking space for catering equipment - perhaps even a mini-buffet? Is the bit to the right a counter that someone can stand behind?

The fourth one looks like a filler for some kind of liquid. As EMUs don't use fuel or coolant, is this near enough to the toilet to be the tank filler?

 

[swt_passenger]

The fourth one looks like a filler for some kind of liquid.

It's where they connect the toilet tank emptying hose. As seen on 444, 450, 350 Desiros, but they were delivered with a covering flap, many of which have been removed. I'd expect it is also present on the 185s surely?

 

[sprinterguy]

perhaps even a mini-buffet? Is the bit to the right a counter that someone can stand behind?

No, you were closer with your first suggestion: Unless I'm very much mistaken, it'll be a catering storage cupboard.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's where they connect the toilet tank emptying hose. As seen on 444, 450, 350 Desiros, but they were delivered with a covering flap, many of which have been removed. I'd expect it is also present on the 185s surely?

Could well be. I've never looked at a 185 that closely - they don't have the novelty value
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, you were closer with your first suggestion: Unless I'm very much mistaken, it'll be a catering storage cupboard.

I did wonder if it might be something like that - but if so, it seems surprising to me that it's out in the open right next to passenger seating.

 

[edwin_m]

Could well be. I've never looked at a 185 that closely - they don't have the novelty value
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I did wonder if it might be something like that - but if so, it seems surprising to me that it's out in the open right next to passenger seating.

I doubt there is any non-seating area to put it in, and there are at least locks provided. Presumably the trolley can be securely locked in here while the attendant does the litter collection, rather than just leaving it in a vestibule for anyone to help themselves.

 

[DJH1971]

Was in St Helens earlier today and saw more steelwork in place just to the west of St Jelee Central, near the multi storey car park.

 

[Francis]

There are a few masts erected near Garswood, but turned away parallel to the tracks, not over them: a few batches of threes. More can be seen west of St Helens near Eccleston Park. Heavy earthworks with JCBs at Huyton, preparing the third and fourth tracks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Travelled over the Parkside-Golborne curve today for the first time, on a 185.
With the 60mph dawdle over the Moss, approach control at Parkside (conflicting with an eastbound ATW service) and the 15/20mph crawl between the two junctions, it's not what you would call an "electrifying" () ride.
Predictably there were some incredulous Bolton types on board, despite very clear announcements on the platform and on board that it would not stop at either Bolton or Chorley.
They were told to change at Wigan, but in fact they stayed on for Preston!

A 350/4 was waiting on the Up Fast at Golborne for us to pass.
I see this was on a Carnforth-Crewe test run.

There is no doubt Wigan gets a good uplift with this service.
My train was to Barrow rather than Scotland.
Must be a while since there were through trains Wigan-Barrow.

Nothing new to report on Phase 2 into Liverpool, but bases and masts continue to multiply.

Took the 10.16 Man Picc - Edinburgh as far as Preston today, via the Parkside route. Not very impressive. Lost 5 minutes on the schedule due to hold ups from Kenyon on to Parkside, and then very slow round to Lowton Jc and Golborne Jc. We wait to see what the electrics will do.

Perhaps relevant more to HS3 from Bamfurlong to Scotland: the WCML was obviously four track from Boars Head Jc (north end of Wigan's Whelley loop line) right through to Euxton Jc. Formation and bridges still in. The north end of HS2 at Lowton/Bamfurlong looks poised for northward extension following the old Whelley line.

If they are going to run a half hourly service from Manchester to Wigan NW on this route, they could open new stations at Golborne (slow lines needed) and Glazebury for Leigh, giving them an hourly semi-fast service (not the Scotland trains obviously). These towns are both dependent on slow bus transport taking an hour into Manchester.

 

[DJH1971]

Going into Manchester this morning, I noticed a fair amount of activity around Salford Central.

 

[RhysTheBeast]

Going into Manchester this morning, I noticed a fair amount of activity around Salford Central.

Would one care to elaborate on that? NR teams sizing things up for wiring? Thanks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would one care to elaborate on that? NR teams sizing things up for wiring? Thanks.

They are only digging holes for mast foundations. Wiring is a long way off.
They might get some steelwork up over the next two weeks.
The lines west of Victoria will be closed every Sunday from Jan 5 to continue the electrification work (Victoria-Ordsall Lane/Salford Crescent).

Meanwhile, mast bases are going in east of St Helens Junction.
On the south side it involves breaching the long stretch of metal fencing which protects what my map suggests was the Burtonwood Brewery site.
Plenty more steelwork up on the Wigan line.
New platform foundations are in at Huyton.
I expect these construction teams are now having a long break.

The updated NR CP5 delivery plan says that the majority of the Chat Moss line speed upgrade should be ready by March 2014.
This is:
Huyton Quarry-Astley: 75mph-90
Astley-Patricroft: 60mph-75.
That leaves just Olive Mount-Huyton Quarry (75 to 80) to come in August with the Huyton remodelling.

 

[The Planner]

That'll be the speed upgrade that should have been done by this December then?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That'll be the speed upgrade that should have been done by this December then?

The only sign of traditional track works I have noticed on many journeys over the past year or two has been remodelling at Earlestown and some simplification at Newton-le-Willows (taking the loop out).
The Earlestown work is plainly incomplete with new signalling unused and new switch and track panels piled up on the old platform with grass growing through them.
Another handy clue is usually the appearance of new speed boards covered in black plastic ready for the change - there aren't any of those yet!