Manchester If Only

[61653 HTAFC]

The area which I have described is just a couple of minutes walk from Piccadilly, which is recognised as a fulcrum in Manchester city centre. That area is easily available to visitors to the city who wish to see the Northern Quarter, who then would view the sight that I so described in my posting.

King's Cross, anyone?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

About the only serious problem with Metrolink is that it can't really do anything in the Oxford Road corridor, which is probably the busiest corridor of them all.

With the very best will in the world, there is no way whatsoever that the route of Oxford Road and "onwards via the Manchester University campus" with its currently available road-ribbon could be made to incorporate tracks for any extension of the Manchester Metrolink system. This stretch of roadway must be the most heavily used by public transport in the Manchester city central core. If the current public-service provision is not enough, then I wonder what would be considered so. Can you imagine the disruption that would be caused if such a Manchester Metrolink extension along this route actually took place, with a very large university and large hospital complexes along the proposed route.

On some threads, there should be a "symbolic" notice displayed, with apologies for the "corner-shop notices", suitably altered to read..
"Please do not ask for reality, as a refusal often offends"....:roll:

 

[Kettledrum]

Just wondered whether more trams on the existing lines would be a way of addressing the shortcomings of the existing public transport as stated by the OP.

It would surely be way less costly than an expensive underground system.

 

[Manchester77]

The only serious issue with the Metrolink is the lack of information to show when the trams are due. I use the trams nearly every day at the peak and they are great. If I knew what time my tram was going to arrive would make them even better.

At the moment Metrolink are working on a new signaling and management system (TMS). Once fully implemented it will allow PIDs to operate across the network providing real time information on where each tram is at every minute. TMS has however been problematic to install. It is in use on the Eccles Line (between Pomona and Eccles via MediaCityUK) and operates on test 'underneath' if you like the VRS (Vehicle Recognition System) and ATS (Automatic Tram Signals). SML and ORL use a temporary system to allow PIDs and junctions to operate without TMS. This tempoary system can be easily converted to TMS when the time comes.
Hope this explains!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just wondered whether more trams on the existing lines would be a way of addressing the shortcomings of the existing public transport as stated by the OP.

It would surely be way less costly than an expensive underground system.

Or double up existing services to provide extra capacity and not mess with timetables.

 

[HSTEd]

With the very best will in the world, there is no way whatsoever that the route of Oxford Road and "onwards via the Manchester University campus" with its currently available road-ribbon could be made to incorporate tracks for any extension of the Manchester Metrolink system. This stretch of roadway must be the most heavily used by public transport in the Manchester city central core. If the current public-service provision is not enough, then I wonder what would be considered so. Can you imagine the disruption that would be caused if such a Manchester Metrolink extension along this route actually took place, with a very large university and large hospital complexes along the proposed route.

On some threads, there should be a "symbolic" notice displayed, with apologies for the "corner-shop notices", suitably altered to read..
"Please do not ask for reality, as a refusal often offends"....:roll:

The fact that it can take an hour to get from the city centre to Fallowfield might have something to do with it.

A tram type system is indeed impractical on this corridor, but since everyone always laughs at the idea of a Funitel I got nothing other than a cut and cover underground pseudo tramline......

Can you build said route in one summer? I doubt it.

 

[TheGrew]

This might well get laughed out, but would a suspended track system (monorail perhaps) be a better alternative for Oxford road?

 

[PR1Berske]

This might well get laughed out, but would a suspended track system (monorail perhaps) be a better alternative for Oxford road?

I'd love to see them build the ramp from Piccadilly Gardens up to the monorail

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This might well get laughed out, but would a suspended track system (monorail perhaps) be a better alternative for Oxford road?

I wonder what would be the cost of such a project....and how far up the Oxford Road route corridor would this proposal be likely to extend from the city centre ?

 

[HSTEd]

I'd love to see them build the ramp from Piccadilly Gardens up to the monorail

If it was a monorail or funitel, one would presume there would be a several storey building with the station on the top, with the other levels holding ticket offices or other space.

I reckon the car park adjacent to the crown court is probably the best space for an airport via University and Fallowfield funitel.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I reckon the car park adjacent to the crown court is probably the best space for an airport via University and Fallowfield funitel.

But there is already a Manchester Metrolink extension in construction to Manchester Airport and the continuation of the St Werburgh's Road extension to Parrs Wood, well now in hand, will serve Withington, Burton Road, West Didsbury, Didsbury Village and East Didsbury.

 

[HSTEd]

But there is already a Manchester Metrolink extension in construction to Manchester Airport and the continuation of the St Werburgh's Road extension to Parrs Wood, well now in hand, will serve Withington, Burton Road, West Didsbury, Didsbury Village and East Didsbury.

Yes, but the Didsbury-City centre flow is a rounding error compared to the total flows along the Oxford Road corridor.

It won't make any measurable difference to the congestion on the corridor.

 

[tbtc]

With the very best will in the world, there is no way whatsoever that the route of Oxford Road and "onwards via the Manchester University campus" with its currently available road-ribbon could be made to incorporate tracks for any extension of the Manchester Metrolink system. This stretch of roadway must be the most heavily used by public transport in the Manchester city central core. If the current public-service provision is not enough, then I wonder what would be considered so. Can you imagine the disruption that would be caused if such a Manchester Metrolink extension along this route actually took place, with a very large university and large hospital complexes along the proposed route.

On some threads, there should be a "symbolic" notice displayed, with apologies for the "corner-shop notices", suitably altered to read..
"Please do not ask for reality, as a refusal often offends"....:roll:

Agreed- anyone who thinks that trams work well alongside busy bus corridors should look at Hillsborough where the Supertram is regularly snarled up by road vehicles - it just doesn't work.

The advantage that Manchester has is that most of its tram routes are segregated from other traffic - even if you could lay the tracks along Oxford Road with no disruption (!) you'd just create gridlock trying to force trams along there.

 

[Manchester77]

Tracks on the EML are part segregated but on the run to Droylesdon they run down I think Ashton New Road(?) in the centre

 

[PR1Berske]

Future Metrolink
Stage 9.01

*St Peter's Square
*Oxford Road
*Chester Street
*All Saints
*Aquatics Centre
*Manchester Museum
*Burlington Street
*Grafton Street
*Whitworth Park
*Oxford Place
*Daisy Bank
*Kinross Road
*Longsight-Birchfields
*Levenshulme


There, dead easy, don't know what the problems are

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There, dead easy, don't know what the problems are

Well, that sees the track up the existing roadway, with the spaces on either side for all your stations.

Now where are you going to site all replacement roads for the use of the emergency services, ambulances to and from the hospital complex, delivery vehicles that service the retail properties, cars, taxis, buses, coaches, heavy goods vehicles and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all....:roll:

 

[PR1Berske]

Well, that sees the track up the existing roadway, with the spaces on either side for all your stations.

Now where are you going to site all replacement roads for the use of the emergency services, ambulances to and from the hospital complex, delivery vehicles that service the retail properties, cars, taxis, buses, coaches, heavy goods vehicles and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all....:roll:

I wasn't being serious, Paul, that's why I had smilies at the end.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wasn't being serious, Paul, that's why I had smilies at the end.

I know, it is just that I am "Mr Grumpy Old Man" at the moment...

 

[Starmill]

How have I not not noticed this thread before now?

did you not take your tablets today?

Last time i was in Manchester, which was July mind so it might have changed, Manchester HAD A CHUFFING TRAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(or am i missing some subtle North West humour here?)

BTW - You have forgotten to connect New Mills to the system (or again am i missing some subtle humour)

If you've been on an M5000 that's chuffing, I think there might have been something seriously wrong with it!

Manchester77 - Hi! lol

I thought ATS was Automatic Tram Stop? I can say first hand that whatever its called, it causes a right bloody jolt!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Manchester held a referendum in 2008 on a two-banded congestion charging scheme that all ten constituent body authorities in what is described as "Greater Manchester" fully participated in, with the monies raised said to fund the expansion of the Manchester Metrolink system.

All ten areas voted overwhelmingly against this proposal and the idea had to be dropped.

I voted Yes

 

[Manchester77]

Manchester77 - Hi! lol

I thought ATS was Automatic Tram Stop? I can say first hand that whatever its called, it causes a right bloody jolt!

aha hiya

I'm not to sure perhaps its and adapted version of ATS (automatic train stop) for Bury and Altrincham but I think they use it in the city. My understanding was
1980s fixed block railway signaling and ATS Bury and Altrincham Lines
VRS and ATS in city and Eccles before TMS
short term line of sight style on SML and ORL as a step in for TMS (which EML will use when it opens)

thats what I understand but I don't know if it's correct

 

[Starmill]

aha hiya

I'm not to sure perhaps its and adapted version of ATS (automatic train stop) for Bury and Altrincham but I think they use it in the city. My understanding was
1980s fixed block railway signaling and ATS Bury and Altrincham Lines
VRS and ATS in city and Eccles before TMS
short term line of sight style on SML and ORL as a step in for TMS (which EML will use when it opens)

thats what I understand but I don't know if it's correct

Hmm. I distinctly remember Freel telling us that the only ATS "beacons" in the City Centre are one at the end of the Piccadilly arrivals platfom (which may or may not still be there) at the top of the DGCF ramp - and before you round the corner into the outbound platform at Victoria. It's definitely Track Circuit Block, as you say, and TMS is Line of Sight used in all of those places. I just don't think there are any track circuits in the CC, and by extension no ATS. I've never really understood VRS (and don't forget the CC is and always has been LoS, just not TMS) and Signalman often talks about UTC or something. I dunno - we're gonna drown in all these acronyms one day

Does ATS mean something different in heavy rail terms too?

 

[Manchester77]

Hmm. I distinctly remember Freel telling us that the only ATS "beacons" in the City Centre are one at the end of the Piccadilly arrivals platfom (which may or may not still be there) at the top of the DGCF ramp - and before you round the corner into the outbound platform at Victoria. It's definitely Track Circuit Block, as you say, and TMS is Line of Sight used in all of those places. I just don't think there are any track circuits in the CC, and by extension no ATS. I've never really understood VRS (and don't forget the CC is and always has been LoS, just not TMS) and Signalman often talks about UTC or something. I dunno - we're gonna drown in all these acronyms one day

Does ATS mean something different in heavy rail terms too?

Then that means that metrolink ATS is Automatic Train Stop adapted on the Altrincham and Bury Lines because DGCF and Victoria are the edges of CC zone where trams switch over to street running. Not sure about the one at Piccadilly though...
I think VRS is a system so when on LoS and Eccles running controlers know where the trams are by transmissions via radio I think (or that may be TMS I'm getting a bit confused)
Heavy Rail ATS acts so if a driver SPADs or certain situations happen such as broken rail, points not set etc it will prevent the train from continuing stopping it. It's like British ATS (Automatic Train Stop), not to be confused with AWS or TPWS.
And just like that I'm floating on surface of a deep deep pool of technical terms and mumbo jumbo

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Going back to the original thread matter of an Underground railway of any type, be it just a connectional linkage adjunct the the existing heavy rail system or a rather more extended version with lines radiating from its central core, I paid a visit to my former Consultancy last week (which I retired from in 2010) where I was the guest speaker on hydro-electric projects in Canada and after the presentation, I put this matter to some of the more younger (25 -30 years of age) of the professionals there. There was unanimous consensus that the Manchester Metrolink system coupled with the heavy rail service rationalisation the Ordsall Chord project will bring is adequate for the light rail/heavy rail transport needs of Greater Manchester and that Central Government and the Treasury in particular would view this underground system proposal as something both totally unnecessary and a project that would be very low in a list of transport provision priorities.

However, they said that if the Consultancy was offered the required advance financial package, they would be only too happy to provide a full report to whomsoever would pay for this.

 

[spargazer]

what does VRS mean? visual rules system?

 

[martin2345uk]

Vehicle Recognition System I believe.

 

[Starmill]

Vehicle Recognition System I believe.

Martin!? Is that you!? I didn't know you had an RailUK Forums account! Yes, it does mean that btw.

 

[martin2345uk]

Lol yes it's me kofers, quite a few of us on here I believe

 

[Manchester77]

As it's like the SSC metrolink guys are having a meet up on RUK:')

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As it's like the SSC metrolink guys are having a meet up on RUK:')

It is good to be with so many of "the regulars" from SSC...

 

[snail]

My understanding was 1980s fixed block railway signaling and ATS Bury and Altrincham Lines VRS and ATS in city and Eccles before TMS short term line of sight style on SML and ORL as a step in for TMS (which EML will use when it opens)

Forgive me for butting in but is there a translation for these other acronyms?

VRS and ATS I get but TMS? EML? SML? ORL?

And what is SSC?

 

[martin2345uk]

Forgive me for butting in but is there a translation for these other acronyms?

VRS and ATS I get but TMS? EML? SML? ORL?

And what is SSC?

I agree, people are too quick to use acronyms without realising people won't know what they mean.

TMS = Tram Management System, the new control system that Metrolink are having difficulties getting to work correctly and is delaying new line openings

EML = East Manchester Line, the new one that goes to Ashton-under-Lyne via Droylsden

SML = South Manchester Line, Didsbury via Chorlton

ORL = Oldham and Rochdale Line

SSC = SkyScraperCity, architecture forum that is also big on transport and has a dedicated thread on the construction of the new Metrolink lines.

Hope that helps!