Management By Wandering Around

[D6968]

Prior to the full scale introduction of Pendolinos on the WCML there was a daily Euston – Manchester service. One day I decided to try the new trains out (having experienced them many times since I wish I hadn’t got my hopes up) but the service on that day was cancelled. Among the people milling about, presumably trying to establish whether it could run or another unit sourced, I noticed Chris Green, so the practice of senior management getting involved in routine matters still lived on into the privatisation era for ex BR managers.

I got stuck behind Mr Green at Kidderminster when 47828 was named there in 2001? How do I put this? Despite him being out the office and being on a bit of a jolly, he was either on his phone or talking those who went up and spoke to him.
Had the good fortune to meet him at the North Norfolk a few years ago, he’s someone I’d describe as ‘leads from the front’
He’s certainly someone who I think you can take something from regarding leadership.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2022 ==

The good thing about a manager who wanders around is that they are seen and not thought of as invisible. By watching what goes on,talking to staff,tea in the mess room etc it goes a long way to earning respect. Often a quiet word in an ear can save a future disciplinary. The more down to earth and realistic a manager is the better they are. Those who are pigeon chested,look at me types end up with a bad reputation and little respect.

‘Like’ ‘agree’ whatever you want to call it, this is very, very true.

 

[PupCuff]

There's no point having a railway revenue management team without an operational railway You need an awareness of the whole business, and a detailed knowledge and whatever part impacts you. Silos in general I think are pretty damaging but of course the amount of damage varies depending on what you do.

I think that applies from the bottom up, but certainly becomes more important the more strategic your role is.

Likewise, there's no point in having an operational railway without having someone who brings in the money to pay for it (I dont get the impression Ms Truss will be getting her purse out any time soon). If the revenue management team don't bring in the money, then it's P45s for everyone - myself included, and I'll guess I'll be off to go and run a coffee shop or gay bar or something instead for a bit of peace and quiet

You are of course correct in what you say; the problem is, as an industry - rhetorical question, perhaps - how do we effectively promote the need for greater professional industry awareness at all levels? For every manager who has no interest in the front line, there's a front line member of staff who has no interest in management. Its a hard sell to try and promote the benefits of a good working relationship when neither party has any interest in the other's contribution despite the Mexican standoff in that neither would be there without the other playing their part in the machine.

 

[edwin_m]

Likewise, there's no point in having an operational railway without having someone who brings in the money to pay for it (I dont get the impression Ms Truss will be getting her purse out any time soon). If the revenue management team don't bring in the money, then it's P45s for everyone - myself included, and I'll guess I'll be off to go and run a coffee shop or gay bar or something instead for a bit of peace and quiet

You are of course correct in what you say; the problem is, as an industry - rhetorical question, perhaps - how do we effectively promote the need for greater professional industry awareness at all levels? For every manager who has no interest in the front line, there's a front line member of staff who has no interest in management. Its a hard sell to try and promote the benefits of a good working relationship when neither party has any interest in the other's contribution despite the Mexican standoff in that neither would be there without the other playing their part in the machine.

Cleary not an either/or. A manager with responsibility for both areas needs to have a suitable level of understanding of both.

A front-line person can do their job fully and completely without having any interest in management. But a manager can't be doing their job properly if they have no knowledge of or interest in the roles they are managing.

 

[DarloRich]

yes, but they still need to appreciate what pays their salary!

I don't disagree but to what level? Take HR/Finance/Procurement/IT/HQ type functions focused on non operational areas. How far do these people need to know how the railway works?

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't disagree but to what level? Take HR/Finance/Procurement/IT/HQ type functions focused on non operational areas. How far do these people need to know how the railway works?

HR ought to know something about the roles they're recruiting for so that they can select suitable candidates, even if the final decision is made by local managers.

Procurement should have actually seen what they're buying in use and not just believe the salesman when he tells them his product is the best on the market.

IT need to understand where and how their hardware and software are going to be used too. An office is quite different to a maintenance depot or over a guard's shoulder .

 

[etr221]

HR ought to know something about the roles they're recruiting for so that they can select suitable candidates, even if the final decision is made by local managers.

Procurement should have actually seen what they're buying in use and not just believe the salesman when he tells them his product is the best on the market.

IT need to understand where and how their hardware and software are going to be used too. An office is quite different to a maintenance depot or over a guard's shoulder .

When I worked in IT looking after the Operating System the (unfair) comment was that the users were there to provide a test load for the system...

Then I got outsourced - and they weren't even on the same team. And the minor change or query that could just have been dealt with suddenly involved a couple of managers and multiple authorisations.

What was the story of the station foreman being unable to tell the (outsourced) cleaner to mop up the spillage? - he could only point out that if he didn't, his company wouldn't be meeting its target and have to pay a penalty - as if he cared.

The comment was always that BR could run a wonderful railway if it wasn't for the passengers; now it's that Network Rail could have a wonderful system if only the TOCs didn't want to run trains.

 

[Dai Corner]

When I worked in IT looking after the Operating System the (unfair) comment was that the users were there to provide a test load for the system...

Then I got outsourced - and they weren't even on the same team. And the minor change or query that

Same here. I was very happy to be made redundant with 25 years of service and quite a large cheque. I heard my former colleagues were insourced again later.

 

[ASharpe]

It’s the same in other industries - I’m led to believe that in most supermarkets most managers are expected to know how the basic detail of how the shop floor works. That’s certainly the case at Tesco (According to a friend who is a senior manger there in IT, and has done quite a few stints in the local Tesco Express).

Plenty of managers seem to think that it's optional to know how a shop works. I might spend most of my days at head office but spend enough time in enough stores at all hours to know where the pinch points are and what makes things run smoothly. And most importantly to know when someone has the wrong end of the stick and needs to think harder.

 

[Horizon22]

That is a manager not doing his job. His job is to manage the store not move pallets about! Yes go out and experiance the world of others but it isn't your job to live it. It is your job to listen to any issues the staff identify, see if you can fix them ( you cant always/often) help them perform and give them what they need to do thier job.

I was going to say, that is it’s own problem. Management - especially senior management - doing more operational roles on a regular basis does cause problems in the longer term. They might resent having to do management a little, but that’s part of what comes with the responsibility and no doubt rise in pay. It’s a fine line but can easily be worked out.

One issue is promoting people who were excellent workers but don’t have the right management skills; it isn’t for everyone. Also when they are passed over for someone who maybe is a good worker (but not best) but shows the right leadership and management attitude that sometimes causes tension so can be awkward.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2022 ==

Likewise, there's no point in having an operational railway without having someone who brings in the money to pay for it (I dont get the impression Ms Truss will be getting her purse out any time soon). If the revenue management team don't bring in the money, then it's P45s for everyone - myself included, and I'll guess I'll be off to go and run a coffee shop or gay bar or something instead for a bit of peace and quiet

You are of course correct in what you say; the problem is, as an industry - rhetorical question, perhaps - how do we effectively promote the need for greater professional industry awareness at all levels? For every manager who has no interest in the front line, there's a front line member of staff who has no interest in management. Its a hard sell to try and promote the benefits of a good working relationship when neither party has any interest in the other's contribution despite the Mexican standoff in that neither would be there without the other playing their part in the machine.

I suppose this asks deep questions about company culture, communications flows, learning and development, morale etc. But that’s a huge topic!

Often it comes down to the right individuals being in the right roles to articulate the key messaging and emphasising that importance.

 

[Taunton]

I got stuck behind Mr Green at Kidderminster when 47828 was named there in 2001? How do I put this? Despite him being out the office and being on a bit of a jolly, he was either on his phone or talking those who went up and spoke to him.
Had the good fortune to meet him at the North Norfolk a few years ago, he’s someone I’d describe as ‘leads from the front’

Pretty sure I saw him on the Elizabeth Line during opening day, not with any officials, just walking along in a station. Long retired, but presumably still interested.

Either it was him or a complete double.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pretty sure I saw him on the Elizabeth Line during opening day, not with any officials, just walking along in a station. Long retired, but presumably still interested.

Either it was him or a complete double.

Yes you would have done. He has been, and still is, involved in the Elizabeth line introduction to service process.

 

[D6968]

Pretty sure I saw him on the Elizabeth Line during opening day, not with any officials, just walking along in a station. Long retired, but presumably still interested.

Either it was him or a complete double.

Why am I not surprised? I know he started on Western Region, is he a legacy of the Reggie Hanks era?

 

[Taunton]

Why am I not surprised? I know he started on Western Region, is he a legacy of the Reggie Hanks era?

Might have, possibly, just overlapped with Gerry Fiennes. Both Oxford men.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why am I not surprised? I know he started on Western Region, is he a legacy of the Reggie Hanks era?

Might have, possibly, just overlapped with Gerry Fiennes. Both Oxford men.

Reasonably sure he started 1965 or 66, and therefore will have just missed Fiennes on the WR.

Top guy of course. Treats everyone the same. No superiority about him at all.

 

[D6968]

Reasonably sure he started 1965 or 66, and therefore will have just missed Fiennes on the WR.

Top guy of course. Treats everyone the same. No superiority about him at all.

That last sentence of yours is the be all and end all, in my job in hospitality, whether it’s a customer or member of staff, my golden rule is you treat all people how you’d like to be treated yourself.

 

[bramling]

That last sentence of yours is the be all and end all, in my job in hospitality, whether it’s a customer or member of staff, my golden rule is you treat all people how you’d like to be treated yourself.

Yes it’s where a lot of people go very wrong.

I’d say the most respected management are those who are knowledgable about the railway as a whole and their own job/area in particular (length of service being largely irrelevant), and those who have their staff’s back. In the latter case this doesn’t mean not dealing with issues when they arise, but simply being fair and consistent and not “out to get” people - including people they don’t like.

Generally such people are highly respected on a local level, but for some reason the industry doesn’t seem to like them. Unfortunately this is because knowledge can be seen as a threat. Hence why walking about nowadays tends to be quite highly stage-managed.

 

[Bald Rick]

whether it’s a customer or member of staff, my golden rule is you treat all people how you’d like to be treated yourself.

I slightly disagree, as I learned once the hard way. I don’t treat people how I like to be treated myself, I treat people how they like to be treated themselves.

It’s a crucial difference, as I’ve found different people like different approaches, and not everyone is like me. (It would be a dull world if they were!)

Nevertheless, it’s important to at least start out on the basis that everyone is worth talking to.

 

[Taunton]

Different people combinations have different experiences.

Having mentioned Gerry Fiennes just above, he is mentioned multiple times in past reminiscences as being a great chap, knowledgeable, sensible, approachable, etc.

Railway publisher Ian Allan, however, who had some professional dealings with him after leaving BR (and indeed had published his books), found him aloof and arrogant, and says so in his autobiography. Came as something of a surprise.

 

[InOban]

He was a member of an ancient aristocratic family, probably going back to the Norman Conquest !

 

[Brush 4]

Certain types of people just should not be managers at all. they have no skills or understanding of others. Empathy, listening, an ability to see the big picture, not just the little bit they are involved in. a genuine interest in the industry they are employed in, all essential. Interviews need to be redesigned to weed out those without such qualities, by formulating questions or scenarios that will separate the people managers from the psychopaths. Psychopathic tendencies are now a recognised human trait. Such people would not realise what was happening in the interview and would give themselves away. Many politicians, bank bosses/traders and famous people have this affliction. Anyone who enjoys controlling people should not be a manager. You work with them, not lord it over them. Walking around, observing quietly, talking to staff not AT them, is the way to manage.

As mentioned, Chris Green and also Gerald Daniels, Salisbury Area Manager were managers as they should be. They were allowed to make decisions without interference or control from distant offices. I can't imagine such a scene as attached would have a hope in hell of happening now, due also to H&S, risk assessment etc. Winchfield-1988. Yes, they were stabled on the up fast, with all traffic using the slow. ( edit - the files are too large) They show a 45, 77, 31, 52, 33's an M7 and stock, stabled on the fast line. A 4SUB worked to Basingstoke and back. There was also Woking 150, with a 2BIL running to Guildford and a USA tank giving brake van rides in the yard. At Salisbury, GD arranged a weekend where an M7 was station pilot, a King Arthur worked an Exeter train (I think), a Standard 4 4-6-0 worked Eastleigh locals and the M7 and 2 class 50's took it in turn to give rides in two SR bogie brake vans through the tunnel, around the triangle and back. They were trusted to manage it and run it. There may well have been behind the scenes arguments that we don't know about but, they still happened, which would not be the case today.

So, a combination of (some) bad managers, risk aversion, and micro-management from afar, stifle innovation, initiative and alienate staff.

 

[DarloRich]

An office is quite different to a maintenance depot or over a guard's shoulder .

agreed - but my point is not everyone who works for the railway works on the railway. How does knowing how to change a sleeper or open a train door help someone who buys office furniture or desk top PC's ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2022 ==

Certain types of people just should not be managers at all. they have no skills or understanding of others. Empathy, listening, an ability to see the big picture, not just the little bit they are involved in. a genuine interest in the industry they are employed in, all essential. Interviews need to be redesigned to weed out those without such qualities, by formulating questions or scenarios that will separate the people managers from the psychopaths

once again - this sounds like only people who look and sound like me and have the same experience as me may apply for jobs, especially those jobs someone like me might want

As mentioned, Chris Green and also Gerald Daniels, Salisbury Area Manager were managers as they should be. They were allowed to make decisions without interference or control from distant offices. I can't imagine such a scene as attached would have a hope in hell of happening now, due also to H&S, risk assessment etc. Winchfield-1988. Yes, they were stabled on the up fast, with all traffic using the slow. ( edit - the files are too large) They show a 45, 77, 31, 52, 33's an M7 and stock, stabled on the fast line. A 4SUB worked to Basingstoke and back. There was also Woking 150, with a 2BIL running to Guildford and a USA tank giving brake van rides in the yard. At Salisbury, GD arranged a weekend where an M7 was station pilot, a King Arthur worked an Exeter train (I think), a Standard 4 4-6-0 worked Eastleigh locals and the M7 and 2 class 50's took it in turn to give rides in two SR bogie brake vans through the tunnel, around the triangle and back. They were trusted to manage it and run it. There may well have been behind the scenes arguments that we don't know about but, they still happened, which would not be the case today.

no idea what any of this means except the last 6 words. Things change, the world changes, the legal and regulatory frameworks that govern industry change. That might be part of the problem you have with managers

 

[Dai Corner]

agreed - but my point is not everyone who works for the railway works on the railway. How does knowing how to change a sleeper or open a train door help someone who buys office furniture or desk top PC's ?

It doesn't, but knowing the environment in which a piece of equipment is going to be used is useful. A laptop used on depot to download data from trains is likely to have a harsher life than one issued to an office-based worker occasionally working from home, for example. It would probably be with spending more to get a toughened model.

 

[edwin_m]

Certain types of people just should not be managers at all. they have no skills or understanding of others. Empathy, listening, an ability to see the big picture, not just the little bit they are involved in. a genuine interest in the industry they are employed in, all essential. Interviews need to be redesigned to weed out those without such qualities, by formulating questions or scenarios that will separate the people managers from the psychopaths. Psychopathic tendencies are now a recognised human trait. Such people would not realise what was happening in the interview and would give themselves away. Many politicians, bank bosses/traders and famous people have this affliction. Anyone who enjoys controlling people should not be a manager. You work with them, not lord it over them. Walking around, observing quietly, talking to staff not AT them, is the way to manage.

Not sure how easy that would be, since one of the characteristics of a psychopath is the ability to deceive others about their true intentions - at least for a while. But we'd probably need a psychologist to comment on that.

once again - this sounds like only people who look and sound like me and have the same experience as me may apply for jobs, especially those jobs someone like me might want

I can't agree with that. Empathy etc, if properly applied, should work equally regardless of the culture of the people managed. I'm all in favour of discriminating against psychopaths for managerial roles!

 

[Brush 4]

no idea what any of this means except the last 6 words. Things change, the world changes, the legal and regulatory frameworks that govern industry change. That might be part of the problem you have with managers

It means what it says, a factual description of events at Winchfield and Salisbury. What do you mean by 'no idea what this means?

 

[alf]

no idea what any of this means except the last 6 words. Things change, the world changes, the legal and regulatory frameworks that govern industry change. That might be part of the problem you have with managers

I understood & enjoyed every word.
It is primarily a forum for people who are interested in railways & enjoy hearing about them.
Surely DarloRich, who posts regularly,knows what an up fast is & what stabling means.

 

[Zamalek]

HR ought to know something about the roles they're recruiting for so that they can select suitable candidates, even if the final decision is made by local managers.

Procurement should have actually seen what they're buying in use and not just believe the salesman when he tells them his product is the best on the market.

IT need to understand where and how their hardware and software are going to be used too. An office is quite different to a maintenance depot or over a guard's shoulder .

When I worked in defence procurement, those of us in commercial and finance regularly went to see the kit in action to ensure we understood what we were buying ....

 

[43066]

When I worked in defence procurement, those of us in commercial and finance regularly went to see the kit in action to ensure we understood what we were buying ....

That sounds rather fun…

Sadly the railway industry is rather less competent at most things, including procurement. I certainly wouldn’t trust it with defence of the realm.

 

[Pinza-C55]

There was a universally disliked area manager at London Bridge known as "Blackadder" in the early 90s and when there was a signalling power failure in the area he had to go out and hand crank the point motors, a hard job for someone short of stature. Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke.

 

[AndrewP]

I am a management consultant and not an operations manager and freely acknowledge that I couldn't do that job as well as others and can't get a detailed understanding of a business / organisation in the timescale of a typical project and one of the things that always fills me with confidence is when senior management says yes when I ask to speak to the people on the ground and actually deliver. Why - because they have the answers but are often not listened to whereas if I put it into a pretty document and provide the evidence to support it. There are few more powerful questions than "what do you think?"

For info, I always give credit where due and get a great kick out of empowering and developing people

If your manager(s) are wandering around and listening its a good thing

 

[Route115?]

Back in the nineties I used to joke that weekends were a management free zone. Many clearly stayed at home or went out by car at weekends and it was certainly news to them that trains were packed. One boss seemed to have trouble to grasp that people might take day trips by train on Sunday. Hopefully things are better now.