Management By Wandering Around

[davetheguard]

I wouldn’t know anybody above my bosses boss at my TOC if I fell over them.

You don't even know who the managing director is?

Or perhaps you're quite senior and your boss' boss is the managing director?

 

[185]

I was pretty impressed by that, I think I might have even written a rare email of praise to TPE (though probably with a backhanded comment that it should be standard practice in those circumstances, not when when the boss is on board and feeling generous).

Whilst I never saw eye to eye with him, Vernon was one of the few MDs who did the job right and spoke to everyone from the Ops director down to the bog cleaner and for that he earned my respect. His dull, soulless replacement imo, was part of the downfall of TPE, and is now ruining running Northern.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, it’s part of the job.

The issue for me is that there’s a whole cadre of managers in the rail industry that aren’t in the chain of command to the front line who don’t understand the business they are in.

 

[43066]

You don't need to know how a job is done or to rise up through the ranks to manage. The recipe you and others follow is to simply have the same people, thinking the same way, doing the same thing, over and over again.

This is a fair point and is demonstrated in other industries where the “managers” will be more senior members of staff who have been promoted due to being good at their day jobs, rather than because they’re good managers per se. Such people are often pretty terrible at the man management aspect of their roles and do it because they have to rather than because they want to.

Partnerships have a tendency to be like this, for example.

 

[nr758123]

I was travelling from Huddersfield to Manchester one day in the summer of 2007 and was very interested to hear on the PA the MD of TPE at the time announce his presence on the train, and that he would be coming through shortly to answer questions, take comments etc. Quite brave as services had been badly delayed that morning... He did though, AND did a full litter sweep too. I was very impressed...

It would be good if the current MD could do the same on Huddersfield to Manchester trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a fine balance between senior management being accessible to all their colleagues and passengers, and getting on with their job. Ultimately it is the job of the MDs / Senior Directors’ to lead their colleagues and direct the company.

It is, of course, easier for MDs of smaller companies to get out and about to see their colleagues and customers - John Smith at GBRf is a great example. However there is no way he could do what he does with GBRF if he was MD of GTR.

 

[A0]

From reading various books about BR days there was an expectation that managers including the most senior of them would make time to turn up unannounced at the front line in order to see first hand how things were, to speak to front line staff and ask questions and to roll up their sleeves and help out if an opportunity arose. A visible and accessible management presence was also expected to be in situ if major disruption was causing havoc at a busy location. Do the newer breed of rail managers do much of this? Arguably there's an even greater need for them to spend time on the shop floor if they've not "risen through the ranks" as used to be the route for most.

BIB

I heard similar, but from a genuine source. A former neighbour of mine, now sadly deceased, worked at Euston and was involved in the track and PW side. There was, a suspicion, at the time that a certain depot on Merseyside were, to put it politely, not working as hard as they should. So one Friday he told his PA that he was 'off out' - when asked where, his response was words to the effect of 'that's for me to know'. He headed north from Euston arriving at Merseyside early afternoon and set off to where the gang should have been working to find nobody on site and no work being done. They were found in a local hostelry having decided it was POETS day (Push off early tomorrow's Saturday). I recall it lead to an interesting conversation with the depot manager.

 

[DarloRich]

There is a fine balance between senior management being accessible to all their colleagues and passengers, and getting on with their job. Ultimately it is the job of the MDs / Senior Directors’ to lead their colleagues and direct the company.

It is, of course, easier for MDs of smaller companies to get out and about to see their colleagues and customers - John Smith at GBRf is a great example. However there is no way he could do what he does with GBRF if he was MD of GTR.

Is the correct answer!

 

[WesternBiker]

This is a fair point and is demonstrated in other industries where the “managers” will be more senior members of staff who have been promoted due to being good at their day jobs, rather than because they’re good managers per se. Such people are often pretty terrible at the man management aspect of their roles and do it because they have to rather than because they want to.

Partnerships have a tendency to be like this, for example.

I've experienced a lot of that in various organisations - not just partnerships, though they are a good example - often those promoted into management not receiving the training they would have benefited from. We used to call it "rising to the first level of incompetence" - they'd stop getting promoted once they reached a job they couldn't do well.

 

[Gloster]

I have a feeling that I read that in the early days of Virgin Trains the parent company started moving BR-trained managers out of VT into other parts of the company as they found that many of them were very good managers. This was after all the publicity that the bearded one got by telling of all the brilliance that private managers would bring to the railways: all would be wonderful after the hidebound incompetence of BR staff.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have a feeling that I read that in the early days of Virgin Trains the parent company started moving BR-trained managers out of VT into other parts of the company

Not sure about that. Obviously there were more opportunities for individuals moving jobs, but I certainly don’t recall any notable figures leaving Vt in the early days.

 

[PupCuff]

Yes, it’s part of the job.

The issue for me is that there’s a whole cadre of managers in the rail industry that aren’t in the chain of command to the front line who don’t understand the business they are in.

I partially agree.

I've seen the watering down of management training in the time I've been in the industry, and in many corners its fair to say that new managers are pretty much left to their own devices to learn what they ought to learn, which requires some self-discipline. Not everyone is great at that.

However, the flip side is that although a broader industry view is desirable, the only real essential is that they know their own area of specialty. We don't expect a conductor for instance to have a full knowledge of everything that the planning, commercial, fleet, safety, payroll etc teams have to do to keep the industry going. So is it right to expect a manager from a non train operations related function to have a comprehensive knowledge of rail operations?

Respect, visibility and engagement are key to forming good working relationships from "both sides of the table" so to speak.

 

[edwin_m]

Someone who goes (from example) from a driver to a driver manager will already have a lot of relevant knowledge, but if they progress further they will find themselves managing people with very unfamiliar roles such as depot technicians. So, just like managers "off the street", they will need to have the ability and humility to engage with the workforce, listen to what they say, and be able to distinguish the sage words from the bull. Whether today's managers from either background have and use this ability is of course a very different question, but it probably does involve a lot of walking the job simply to understand what people do.

 

[notverydeep]

Being familiar with the operation and the people who make it happen is generally very desirable, but in a safety critical industry it is also essential to allow those with the correct competencies to have ownership of resolving incidents. Having a very senior manager around in such an incident can make those who should be taking control fearful of the senior manager and end up trying to second guess what the senior person wants, but possibly in a situation where the senior manager has very little experience and may not have any of the appropriate safety competencies or licences. In such situations the seniors are much better used to bolster the public facing roles and assist in resolving passengers' difficulties. Some time ago, a rail operator I have experience of moved away from having a rota of senior manager on call and instead set up a specific grade of trained people to co-ordinate incident response across the network. This followed a number of safety related incidents linked to senior manager decisions in such situations...

 

[AlterEgo]

From reading various books about BR days there was an expectation that managers including the most senior of them would make time to turn up unannounced at the front line in order to see first hand how things were, to speak to front line staff and ask questions and to roll up their sleeves and help out if an opportunity arose. A visible and accessible management presence was also expected to be in situ if major disruption was causing havoc at a busy location. Do the newer breed of rail managers do much of this? Arguably there's an even greater need for them to spend time on the shop floor if they've not "risen through the ranks" as used to be the route for most.

I expect a lot of that is because the railways had a military ethos from the end of WWII onwards. That's essentially a member of management working as a picket officer or duty officer, wandering the base and essentially checking "all is well" as well as conducting a temperature check on morale.

 

[Gloster]

Not sure about that. Obviously there were more opportunities for individuals moving jobs, but I certainly don’t recall any notable figures leaving Vt in the early days.

I think it was more at the lower level, rather than the big names. These ex-BR junior managers, who had gone through the BR management course, were found to be competent and capable to a far greater degree than many of those at an equivalent level in other parts of Virgin’s empire.

Being familiar with the operation and the people who make it happen is generally very desirable, but in a safety critical industry it is also essential to allow those with the correct competencies to have ownership of resolving incidents. Having a very senior manager around in such an incident can make those who should be taking control fearful of the senior manager and end up trying to second guess what the senior person wants, but possibly in a situation where the senior manager has very little experience and may not have any of the appropriate safety competencies or licences. In such situations the seniors are much better used to bolster the public facing roles and assist in resolving passengers' difficulties. Some time ago, a rail operator I have experience of moved away from having a rota of senior manager on call and instead set up a specific grade of trained people to co-ordinate incident response across the network. This followed a number of safety related incidents linked to senior manager decisions in such situations...

I have seen occasions where BR managers had chanced on an incident and, once they knew that it was not necessary to have someone of their seniority available, disappeared to allow the staff on the ground deal with the matter without having to look over their shoulders. However, I have also seen an Area Manager set himself up to act as pilotman for a short-notice Single Line Working. (In the latter case a relief signalman turned up at the last minute to take over, but the engineers managed to move their obstructing vehicle before the SLW was started.)

 

[Broucek]

What I find objectionable is those who move into a management role without any experience of the industry they've been brought into, and who expect to take charge of a team simply because they're "trained managers". I think it's probably a bit naive to think that a good manager should be able to step into the shoes of someone at the bottom of the ladder these days, but they should at least have a good grasp of what it's like to step into the shoes of the relevant department manager.

I understand your point. But I currently have a "professional boss" and she's a real breath of fresh air. But that's perhaps due to the individual - she doesn't assume she has all the answers and knowledge and asks a LOT of question. When she does challenge, she tends to have a point.

That said, I work in consulting which is a rather simpler business than rail transport....

 

[Western Sunset]

My favourite Gerry Fiennes story goes something like this...

One day he was going down to South Wales, as the new General Manager of the WR. The driver was having a good run and they were eleven minutes early. So at Newport, GF got out to tell the driver what a good guy he was. He greeted the driver, quickly flashed his footplate pass, and settled down in the cab.
Driver: "They tell me the new General Manager is on the train."
GF: "Well he was, but he got out at Newport."
Driver: "Did he; he should have gone on to Cardiff. I wonder where the silly b's got to?"
GF: "He's here."
And they both collapsed laughing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Managers who don't know a thing about the job they are supposed to manage, and have no clue about how to handle people.

There are two different issues there. You don't need to know about the jobs people do in order to manage, and in many cases trying to understand and muck in causes more problems - the best managers know this, and empower their staff to just get on with it.

If you can't manage people then you're screwed. Often these people end up in management because they excelled in non-managerial roles and were promoted into jobs they don't have the skillset for.

Anyway, back to TOCs, I was impressed with the TPE MD back in 2010ish, I think it was Vernon. The ECML had spectacularly fallen over north of York and he was out on the concourse at York fronting up and sorting stuff out. I was travelling with my newborn and he both patiently listened to me whingeing and still managed to actually help.

 

[43066]

I've experienced a lot of that in various organisations - not just partnerships, though they are a good example - often those promoted into management not receiving the training they would have benefited from. We used to call it "rising to the first level of incompetence" - they'd stop getting promoted once they reached a job they couldn't do well.

Underpinned by the fact that, in many businesses, promotion prospects are directly proportional to one’s ability to bring in revenue, with “management” a sideshow to this. Obviously the railway is somewhat different in this regard.

 

[Bald Rick]

So is it right to expect a manager from a non train operations related function to have a comprehensive knowledge of rail operations?

Comprehensive, no. Basic working knowledge, yes. Running trains for the benefit of passengers and freight users is the business we are in after all.

I wouldn’t expect every manager to know their Absolute Block Bell codes, or how to conduct Pilot working; I would expect them to know how to use a network map, timetable and departure board. And to know when something is going wrong.

It’s the same in other industries - I’m led to believe that in most supermarkets most managers are expected to know how the basic detail of how the shop floor works. That’s certainly the case at Tesco (According to a friend who is a senior manger there in IT, and has done quite a few stints in the local Tesco Express).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Comprehensive, no. Basic working knowledge, yes. Running trains for the benefit of passengers and freight users is the business we are in after all.

I wouldn’t expect every manager to know their Absolute Block Bell codes, or how to conduct Pilot working; I would expect them to know how to use a network map, timetable and departure board. And to know when something is going wrong.

It’s the same in other industries - I’m led to believe that in most supermarkets most managers are expected to know how the basic detail of how the shop floor works. That’s certainly the case at Tesco (According to a friend who is a senior manger there in IT, and has done quite a few stints in the local Tesco Express).

Of course , trainees in the 20thC were passed out on all these things , worked boxes and attended failures as part of their training. My very first point clipping was in the Cardiff area under supervision to get trains moving at a fairly important location. Gave you confidence. (though some of the training was maybe a bit too focused on "production" , and less on what we now call "business management" , but the training produced some first rate managers later on if they survived their first few postings ....

However - a friend who had a pretty senior job at Sainsbury's was expected to work front line in the Xmas period for a week or so. She loved it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course , trainees in the 20thC were passed out on all these things

IIRC Traffic / Ops / GM trainees were, but not Engineering / Finance etc?

 

[DavyCrocket]

Current method of management is by email, usually by someone that has no experience or knowledge of what they’re managing

 

[ChiefPlanner]

IIRC Traffic / Ops / GM trainees were, but not Engineering / Finance etc?

Probably not , but they would almost certainly be given some appreciation of the sharp end. At least a bit of time with a suitable Area Management team.

 

[DarloRich]

The issue for me is that there’s a whole cadre of managers in the rail industry that aren’t in the chain of command to the front line who don’t understand the business they are in.

But, surely, many are only tangentially in the business of railways ( as with any massive organisation) when you consider the myriad departments and functions of such a large company.

 

[Bald Rick]

But, surely, many are only tangentially in the business of railways ( as with any massive organisation) when you consider the myriad departments and functions of such a large company.

yes, but they still need to appreciate what pays their salary!

 

[PupCuff]

But one could argue the commercial team who manage advance purchase ticket revenue/yield management/drive website sales to bring in money on the retail front pay my salary just as much as - or possibly more than - the work a conductor or driver does, so do I need to have more of an understanding of revenue management than I do rail ops?

 

[LowLevel]

But one could argue the commercial team who manage advance purchase ticket revenue/yield management/drive website sales to bring in money on the retail front pay my salary just as much as - or possibly more than - the work a conductor or driver does, so do I need to have more of an understanding of revenue management than I do rail ops?

There's no point having a railway revenue management team without an operational railway You need an awareness of the whole business, and a detailed knowledge and whatever part impacts you. Silos in general I think are pretty damaging but of course the amount of damage varies depending on what you do.

I think that applies from the bottom up, but certainly becomes more important the more strategic your role is.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Comprehensive, no. Basic working knowledge, yes. Running trains for the benefit of passengers and freight users is the business we are in after all.

I wouldn’t expect every manager to know their Absolute Block Bell codes, or how to conduct Pilot working; I would expect them to know how to use a network map, timetable and departure board. And to know when something is going wrong.

It’s the same in other industries - I’m led to believe that in most supermarkets most managers are expected to know how the basic detail of how the shop floor works. That’s certainly the case at Tesco (According to a friend who is a senior manger there in IT, and has done quite a few stints in the local Tesco Express).

As it happens I have always worked in the commercial side of the industry but as a trainee I did indeed need to learn ops (including Absolute Block bell codes, although I wouldn't want to try and recall them all right now!).

Whilst arguably not essential to everything I have done, the ability to appreciate and understand the totality of the industry has been very helpful in being able to work through all the implications of given situations and opportunities. It also means you don't have to wait for briefings or rely on what you might be 'officially' told to understand the implications of events, whether it be operational incidents, ministerial announcements or industrial relations developments.