Man Vs Ticket Inspector (SWT)

[Urban Gateline]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVK0tYECNOw

Video link is above. (WARNING: Explicit Language in video)

The description: On Xmas eve, a fare-dodger argues with the inspector after refusing to pay and handover his ID. The inspector then threatens him with the police who will arrest him at Bournemouth.

Strangely, I found the tone of the "passenger" quite amusing, although the swearing is a bit excessive. Unfortunately we don't know the full story of what happened as it doesn't show it all in the video, the passenger seems to suggest that the Guard allowed him to board the train without a ticket but the Guard opposes that.

What does everyone think of this situation?

Apologies if this has been posted already.

 

[Flamingo]

Just another arrogant git with no ticket who thinks the world owes him a free ride.

Dozens of them out there, it's just the latest fashion is to give them their 15 minutes of fame on youtube proving to the wider would what ****s they are, not just inflicting it on everybody within earshot on the train.

Another day in the life of revenue, really. The big question that should be asked is why do people feel the need to video it and put it on the internet?

 

[trc666]

It sounded like he got on in London, most likely at Waterloo which begs the question, how has he got through the gates?

 

[185]

Totally the guards fault innit!! Poor innocent passenger being picked on by one of them evil uniform wearing monsters.

How do they sleep at night??!

(for clarity, I should point out that had that been me, said passenger would have been removing an avantix from his nostril over the chrimbo period)

 

[scotsman]

I quite like how people have taken to filming it in some respects as it embarrasses the evader and acts as a deterrent. I'll leave it to the Guards and RPIs to point out the downsides

 

[yorkie]

I don't know what it's about but once he started swearing he just makes himself look like an idiot and he's committing an offence and can be removed from the train irrespective of any ticketing matters.

This is just a video of someone ranting and being abusive, there's no reasonable argument presented here. "I'm tired" = so what?

It sounded like he got on in London, most likely at Waterloo which begs the question, how has he got through the gates?

Don't be fooled by the DfT who think ticket gates are the solution to all ticketing matters!

I got the impression that someone near me on the 1930 KGX-EDB had used an Oyster card to get through the gates. He acted dumb but I suspect he thought he was going to get a cheap trip to Peterborough but he had to buy a new ticket (eventually; after presenting an out of date ticket and then a debit card that isn't accepted by TOCs).

 

[Urban Gateline]

It sounded like he got on in London, most likely at Waterloo which begs the question, how has he got through the gates?

Yep I wondered this too, he could have tailgated though.

Although as Yorkie points out, an Oyster card could be used to pass through the Gateline to board a long distance service. Although some people doing this will claim they didn't know, others will blatently use it to doge fares especially on late services where they know they're not likely to get checked!

That's why barriers aren't perfect, it would be good if the Oyster readers on long distance train platform gatelines were simply switched off, and it would be easy to switch them back on if needed later.

I think that filming will always be a positive thing for the Guard/RPI if they are doing their job correctly, as it will be like an extra source of evidence, should a complaint or prosecution arise, as it may be better quality than CCTV sometimes and with the added benefit of sound!

 

[wintonian]

Happened to me a Waterloo a few days ago, I was wheeling my suitcase through the wide gate and as I approached it I suspected this middle aged gentleman was going to try and tailgate me and sure enough he did despite me pausing after going through the gate (as I often do to prevent tailgating) he just brushed past me and ran onto the train.

So no they don't work and are in fact just an expensive nuisance.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Happened to me a Waterloo a few days ago, I was wheeling my suitcase through the wide gate and as I approached it I suspected this middle aged gentleman was going to try and tailgate me and sure enough he did despite me pausing after going through the gate (as I often do to prevent tailgating) he just brushed past me and ran onto the train.

So no they don't work and are in fact just an expensive nuisance.

To be fair, they do work quite alot of the time, otherwise most people would just get on the train without buying a ticket!

Although the gentleman in your case could have had a perfectly valid ticket, probably a Gold card that stopped working in the barriers and he didn't want to be held up by finding a member of staff to let him in. Waterloo isn't that well staffed on the Gateline, I've been approached when I went to Waterloo for my break to buy some food and people asked me to let them in, I have to remind them that I don't work there!

It can be hard to explain to people that only 1 person at a time should pass through the gate, I've had people just flash their ticket at me and go through behind someone else! (mostly through the WAG, which is why WAG's are one of my pet hates, a normal manual gate would prevent this!)

 

[wintonian]

To be fair, they do work quite alot of the time, otherwise most people would just get on the train without buying a ticket!

Although the gentleman in your case could have had a perfectly valid ticket, probably a Gold card that stopped working in the barriers and he didn't want to be held up by finding a member of staff to let him in.

It can be hard to explain to people that only 1 person at a time should pass through the gate, I've had people just flash their ticket at me and go through behind someone else! (mostly through the WAG, which is why WAG's are one of my pet hates, a normal manual gate would prevent this!)

They only work for those who chance it not the people who revenue protection should concentrate on; those that know what they are doing and are intent on not paying on a regular bases.

No he was going to make a go for one of the other gates which someone was passing through, he then saw me approach the wide gate and proceeded Manoeuvre behind me, I stopped to get my ticket out, he then stood around all shifty and fidgety until I put my ticket in, and besides the train wasn't due to leave for another 10mins.

 

[Flamingo]

I think that filming will always be a positive thing for the Guard/RPI if they are doing their job correctly, as it will be like an extra source of evidence, should a complaint or prosecution arise, as it may be better quality than CCTV sometimes and with the added benefit of sound!

Unfortunately, filming will rarely show the beginning of the incident, which is the bit that is interesting. Selective editing can be done, as the incident with the wheelchair user in Manchester last year showed.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think that filming will always be a positive thing for the Guard/RPI if they are doing their job correctly, as it will be like an extra source of evidence, should a complaint or prosecution arise, as it may be better quality than CCTV sometimes and with the added benefit of sound!

I disagree.
I'm happy with your sentiment that when attempting to unravel verbal reports after the event, then more evidence is better than less. But so often a 'domestic' phone recording, without continuous timecode, without supportive witness corroboration, without the preliminary views of persons arriving and their prior movements and without detail of hand movements etc, can make it worse than useless. 'Worse' because it can give false hope to someone.

Sadly, much of the alledgedly 'official' CCTV operated in public areas and private areas visited by the public also fail to meet satisfactory standards of evidence. Even if the CCTV is kept out of the Courts (as it usually is), its value in assisting an investigation is very low. The one and only time I played a video in a Court (at the insistence of the Client, a 'domestic' video showing individuals behaving unlawfully) I realised as soon as it began that no one would be paying any attention - the Client lost, much to my regret as I should have been firmer in refusing his 'domestic' evidence.

. . . . filming will rarely show the beginning of the incident, which is the bit that is interesting.

Exactly!

 

[trc666]

Tailgating through WAGs is a common problem at Waterloo. Some of the common issues we have is that a passenger will ask to be let through because they want to buy their ticket on the train. I say no, and then a few seconds later they tailgate through anyway, or they just go to the TVM and simply buy the lowest priced ticket they can, such as a child single to Vauxhall, to open the gate.

 

[Urban Gateline]

They only work for those who chance it not the people who revenue protection should concentrate on; those that know what they are doing and are intent on not paying on a regular bases.

No he was going to make a go for one of the other gates which someone was passing through, he then saw me approach the wide gate and proceeded Manoeuvre behind me, I stopped to get my ticket out, he then stood around all shifty and fidgety until I put my ticket in, and besides the train wasn't due to leave for another 10mins.

Very true, but even SWT admit that there will be a small percentage of hardcore fare evaders who are unstoppable. Revenue staff have to follow a no-touch policy, so sometime stopping someone is impossible, let alone getting their details etc! Permanent BTP presence would be needed to be 100% effective. I find that when working alone on the Gateline I'm often too busy to stop tailgaters and push-through's as I'm dealing with another passenger already!

I think these hardcore fare evaders are a write-off for the TOC, the TOC isn't overly bothered, they know that getting money from these select few is very difficult and possibly not worthwhile.

I agree with DaveNewcastle in that phone video may not be effective in court as evidence and it is a shame that most CCTV is recorded at such low resolution that it is often unusable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tailgating through WAGs is a common problem at Waterloo. Some of the common issues we have is that a passenger will ask to be let through because they want to buy their ticket on the train. I say no, and then a few seconds later they tailgate through anyway, or they just go to the TVM and simply buy the lowest priced ticket they can, such as a child single to Vauxhall, to open the gate.

Yes unfortunately the WAG's are so slow to close and allow many people to pass through at the same time, at Waterloo the setup seems unfortunate in that most Gateline staff stand either by the SKU or by a normal gate, if they stood by the WAG then tailgating could be reduced significantly as not so many people would try it through the normal gate. I have similar problems at Clapham, as I work on a Gateline which has 2 WAG's, which one is set to Entry Full-Wide and the other to Exit Full-Wide, I can stand at one but someone tailgates through the other so you can't win!

As for cheap tickets to get in, try blocking child tickets, I have found this to be quite effective! Those who take the mick simply won't be allowed entry and I will point them out to Revenue if I happen to have any (rare!)

 

[wintonian]

Yes unfortunately the WAG's are so slow to close and allow many people to pass through at the same time, at Waterloo the setup seems unfortunate in that most Gateline staff stand either by the SKU or by a normal gate

and in my experience there often seems to be more WAG's than gelatine staff, if my ticket won't go through I sometimes find myself running round to another platform to get out.

 

[ValleyLines142]

A debit card that isn't accepted by TOCs.

Do all TOCs not accept debit cards, I pay for my week ticket on board the train by card?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Do all TOCs not accept debit cards, I pay for my week ticket on board the train by card?

There is a certain card whichd doesn't work in the card machines onboard, I think its Visa Electron, most of the others work but I have seen declined transaction with other cards too, I dont think it tells you why its declined on the reader unfortunately.

 

[wintonian]

Do all TOCs not accept debit cards, I pay for my week ticket on board the train by card?

Cards such as Visa Electron that require 'on-line' authorisation are not accepted on board or by some TOC's at ticket offices.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Cards such as Visa Electron that require 'on-line' authorisation are not accepted on board or by some TOC's at ticket offices.

Ah right. Mine is a Visa Debit.

 

[wintonian]

Ah right. Mine is a Visa Debit.

Yes, but is it Visa Debit or Visa Debit the modern iteration of Electron?

I think the only way to tell these days is if it has 'For electronic use only' or similar on it.

 

[trc666]

You will find at some stations that gateline staff stand away from the WAGs because a lot of passengers still assume that it's a manual gate and that it needs to be opened for them and once you let one person through everyone makes a beeline for that gate because they don't want (or can't be bothered) to put their tickets through the normal gates and this can cause problems.

One trick I have used in the past to lessen the chance of WAG tailgating is to set it to half wide and stand in the gate by the single paddle which does not open if I see someone hanging around the barriers that I know does not have a ticket (or has an invalid one) and is pacing up and down looking for a way to get in / out.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Yes, but is it Visa Debit or Visa Debit the modern iteration of Electron?

I think the only way to tell these days is if it has 'For electronic use only' or similar on it.

Well mine worked perfectly fine on the 1717 Penarth-Rhymney service around November time.

 

[Urban Gateline]

You will find at some stations that gateline staff stand away from the WAGs because a lot of passengers still assume that it's a manual gate and that it needs to be opened for them and once you let one person through everyone makes a beeline for that gate because they don't want (or can't be bothered) to put their tickets through the normal gates and this can cause problems.

One trick I have used in the past to lessen the chance of WAG tailgating is to set it to half wide and stand in the gate by the single paddle which does not open if I see someone hanging around the barriers that I know does not have a ticket (or has an invalid one) and is pacing up and down looking for a way to get in / out.

Yes you're right, but luckily the new CLJ Gateline where I am, has space to stand at the side of the WAG or slightly back from it, I know Waterloo's setup makes it more difficult as most of the WAG's are by a wall!

I have tried Halfwide before, but it is a pain tbh as I get so many people with buggies and suitcases that genuinely need Full-wide, so you just end up having to switch back and fourth all the time, which is a pain if your SKU is on the unpaid side like at my gateline!

The problem I can see at Waterloo is that with such a wide Gateline, the fare evader will eventually get in when someone fails to spot them. Weak spots are the P5/6/11 and 17 WAG's, especially 11 which is far away from the main Gateline!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

At Leeds they have put big signs above the WAGs saying "Gating Assistance". The problem is the staff are never there. Normally however it is easy to get in and out at Leeds. The WAGs are normally left locked open, while the staff all mill around somewhere else chatting to each other. If they happen to be closed, just walk up purposefully and stop. Without showing a ticket a hand will just appear and open the gate for you.

 

[Urban Gateline]

At Leeds they have put big signs above the WAGs saying "Gating Assistance". The problem is the staff are never there. Normally however it is easy to get in and out at Leeds. The WAGs are normally left locked open, while the staff all mill around somewhere else chatting to each other. If they happen to be closed, just walk up purposefully and stop. Without showing a ticket a hand will just appear and open the gate for you.

That's terrible tbh, we would probably get sacked for leaving any Gate in the open position when it's not justified, especially at Waterloo where "Control" are watching your every move! Leaving a gate open is just asking for trouble, we even get it when people touch out (Oyster) on the gate and don't walk through, leaving it open for someone else to walk through which happens quite often!

 

[tannedfrog]

May I politely point out that evading the gates is not the same as evading the fare, contrary to what some gateline staff may believe

I tailgate when I can because I hate being held up by automatic gates and their queues. I still hold a valid ticket though

 

[First class]

May I politely point out that evading the gates is not the same as evading the fare, contrary to what some gateline staff may believe

I tailgate when I can because I hate being held up by automatic gates and their queues. I still hold a valid ticket though

Tailgating, whether you hold a ticket or not is an offence.

9(2)
Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or
an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except
with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the
barrier in the correct manner.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

May I politely point out that evading the gates is not the same as evading the fare, contrary to what some gateline staff may believe

I tailgate when I can because I hate being held up by automatic gates and their queues. I still hold a valid ticket though

May I politely point out that tailgating is a criminal offence in itself, whether or not you hold a valid ticket, contrary to what some passengers may believe.

 

[AlterEgo]

May I politely point out that evading the gates is not the same as evading the fare, contrary to what some gateline staff may believe

I tailgate when I can because I hate being held up by automatic gates and their queues. I still hold a valid ticket though

Tailgating is one sure way to get accused of fare dodging though. :roll:

As others have pointed out, it's an offence, so maybe it's best not to do it.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Tailgating is one sure way to get accused of fare dodging though. :roll:

As others have pointed out, it's an offence, so maybe it's best not to do it.

I very much agree! I didn't even know that it was an offence, but of course tailgating will make it look like that person is evading the fare.

When I've been able to stop tailgaters, some do have valid tickets, some don't, but it just looks dodgy to tailgate. It's so easy to just use the barriers correctly or to show your ticket to a member of staff who will let you through if it's valid.

Being "held up" is rubbish as an excuse to tailgate, it takes all of 2 seconds if you have your ticket ready, or otherwise the passenger should make sure they get to the station earlier or to replace their non-working season ticket!