• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Man Vs Ticket Inspector (SWT)

Status
Not open for further replies.

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
Yes, but is it Visa Debit or Visa Debit the modern iteration of Electron? ;)

I think the only way to tell these days is if it has 'For electronic use only' or similar on it.

Visa Debit has the Visa symbol with "DEBIT" underneath, Visa Electron has the Visa symbol with "ELECTRON" underneath.

I was told during training that Electron cards were easily distinguished as they are completely flat, however, I have recently noted some debit cards that are completely flat.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,754
Location
Essex
Visa Debit has the Visa symbol with "DEBIT" underneath

My card must be an exception then. It's an HSBC Visa Debit card, yet the Visa logo is the same as on the credit cards. The text 'Debit' is at the top right hand corner, with the Visa logo on the bottom right hand corner.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
My card must be an exception then. It's an HSBC Visa Debit card, yet the Visa logo is the same as on the credit cards. The text 'Debit' is at the top right hand corner, with the Visa logo on the bottom right hand corner.

Fair point, I was thinking of the Santander cards, but don't HSBC have Solo cards rather than Electron.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
I'm sure Island will be along at some point to put us all straight once again, or he may just point us to one of the many threads where he has already done so. :)

Sent from my HTC Desire S
 

hantsman1205

Member
Joined
11 Nov 2011
Messages
116
All HSBC including First Direct have now gone over to Visa Debit, used to be Maestro which always seem to be seen more abroad IMHO.

New Electron cards are harder to get now, Halifax do one as I have one, I use it to pay no fees with easy Jet :D

Using Electron can be hit or miss with some retailers.
 

tannedfrog

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
537
Being "held up" is rubbish as an excuse to tailgate, it takes all of 2 seconds if you have your ticket ready, or otherwise the passenger should make sure they get to the station earlier or to replace their non-working season ticket!

Imagine this - passenger arrives on delayed train at small station. At gateline there is a queue of 10 slowly filtering through single exit barrier. Passenger sees bus pulling in that he needs for onward journey, gateline member of staff is busy texting, someone enters through WAG entry barrier, passenger can dash for bus through open WAG or wait..... What would you do?
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,664
Imagine this - passenger arrives on delayed train at small station. At gateline there is a queue of 10 slowly filtering through single exit barrier. Passenger sees bus pulling in that he needs for onward journey, gateline member of staff is busy texting, someone enters through WAG entry barrier, passenger can dash for bus through open WAG or wait..... What would you do?

The situation that you just mentioned is extremely unlikely though isn't it?

Which stations have just one exit gate? And your suggestion of the Gateline staff member being too busy texting is quite unlikely too. Also the WAG can be used as an exit gate too, so if this hypothetical passenger just waited for the other passenger to come through, then put his ticket in, there would be minimal delay.

Also the fact that stations with Gatelines are generally busy stations, so there is likely to be a frequent bus service, therefore having to run for one may not be applicable.
 

185

On Moderation
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,709
My winner last week was

"But I bought a ticket from the machine!"
"How did you pay for it?"
"Card. This (Electron) one!!!"

bzzzt.... wrong! they don't work in TVMs. :roll:
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,664
My winner last week was

"But I bought a ticket from the machine!"
"How did you pay for it?"
"Card. This (Electron) one!!!"

bzzzt.... wrong! they don't work in TVMs. :roll:

Oh dear, talk about digging a whole for oneself :lol:
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
6,059
Location
Sheffield
Also the fact that stations with Gatelines are generally busy stations, so there is likely to be a frequent bus service, therefore having to run for one may not be applicable.

There is no shortage of barriered stations which are not really that busy and where the bus services are not frequent. Lincoln is the best example I am aware of but there are plenty of others.


Tailgating, whether you hold a ticket or not is an offence.

9(2)
Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or
an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except
with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the
barrier in the correct manner.

What about the situation at Leeds where, as has been mentioned, the wide gate is usually locked open. Does this fall within the 'permission from an authorised person' section, as the said persons are usually not in the slightest bit interested whether you have a ticket or not.
 
Last edited:

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,664
There is no shortage of barriered stations which are not really that busy and where the bus services are not frequent. Lincoln is the best example I am aware of but there are plenty of others.

True, but this further proves my point that the scenario of the other poster is very unlikely! A non-busy station with a Gateline should be no problem to exit speedily, and busier/bigger stations often have a large enough Gateline to cope with the flow. Alternatively I can just suggest that anyone that gets into that scenario leaves the train promptly when it gets to their destination so that they get to the barriers before everyone else :)
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,855
Location
UK
The situation that you just mentioned is extremely unlikely though isn't it? Which stations have just one exit gate?

I can actually give an example of potentially missing a train, at Liverpool Street, when taking a train to Manningtree (to get to Harwich) before Christmas.

For whatever reason, a member of staff had let someone through the wide gate (even though it was marked as open from my side - but possibly set to first come, first served or manually opened?) which immediately saw virtually everyone on a train that just arrived on the next platform decide to come through instead of using the gates.

I had two suitcases so had to wait until the last person came through, and the gate was then left free for me to pass.

Now, if staff regularly open the wide gates manually to let people through (it may even be the case that the gate was left open all the time by the person there) then it would seem rather easy to get out without having a valid ticket. As you can quite easily walk up and down 'airside', you could probably just hang around until another train arrived (Stansted Express perhaps?) and then get through with ease.

The Cubic gates are dead easy to double up on anyway, given how slow they open/close.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
6,059
Location
Sheffield
True, but this further proves my point that the scenario of the other poster is very unlikely! A non-busy station with a Gateline should be no problem to exit speedily, and busier/bigger stations often have a large enough Gateline to cope with the flow. Alternatively I can just suggest that anyone that gets into that scenario leaves the train promptly when it gets to their destination so that they get to the barriers before everyone else :)

Good in theory, but try exiting speedily at Lincoln. There may not be many people in total but they seem very adept at milling around in front of the barriers :)
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
I think it is fair to say that anyone can be held up by a gateline. I have experienced it myself at many places. either because my ticket has not been accepted, or because I needed to be let through manually to retain my ticket, or simply because therewas a queue for the barrier.

I don't think it is an excuse for tailgating though.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,855
Location
UK
I've never done that, but if I see an open gate (for whatever reason, such as someone touching their Oyster but not walking through) then I will not hesitate to walk straight through it.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,043
Location
Yorkshire
My winner last week was

"But I bought a ticket from the machine!"
"How did you pay for it?"
"Card. This (Electron) one!!!"

bzzzt.... wrong! they don't work in TVMs. :roll:

Is that rule 100% correct for all TVMs (of the various operators)?

True, but this further proves my point that the scenario of the other poster is very unlikely! A non-busy station with a Gateline should be no problem to exit speedily, and busier/bigger stations often have a large enough Gateline to cope with the flow. Alternatively I can just suggest that anyone that gets into that scenario leaves the train promptly when it gets to their destination so that they get to the barriers before everyone else :)

Come to Hitchin in the evening peak, when a 12 coach first stop Hitchin is disgorging. There are usually 3 out and 1 in plus the WAG (operated in much the same manner as previously described by others).
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,664
I can actually give an example of potentially missing a train, at Liverpool Street, when taking a train to Manningtree (to get to Harwich) before Christmas.

For whatever reason, a member of staff had let someone through the wide gate (even though it was marked as open from my side - but possibly set to first come, first served or manually opened?) which immediately saw virtually everyone on a train that just arrived on the next platform decide to come through instead of using the gates.

I had two suitcases so had to wait until the last person came through, and the gate was then left free for me to pass.

Now, if staff regularly open the wide gates manually to let people through (it may even be the case that the gate was left open all the time by the person there) then it would seem rather easy to get out without having a valid ticket. As you can quite easily walk up and down 'airside', you could probably just hang around until another train arrived (Stansted Express perhaps?) and then get through with ease.

The Cubic gates are dead easy to double up on anyway, given how slow they open/close.

Hmm yes this is rather strange, not something SWT would do at all unless passenger flows were uncontrollable! I can assure you that at least in my TOC the gates are taken seriously and leaving one "Open" without good reason can get the staff member into trouble!

It is possible that the gate (WAG) was set to "Open", this must have been the case, otherwise it does shut after 30 seconds of idling time (double that of standard gates) and also when people go through and there is a gap in passenger flow it will shut.

I agree that Cubic gates are slow, but only talented fare dodgers will tailgate through the normal size gates, most target WAG's as they are slow! Sometimes the opposite happens and I've seen the gate shut on people who carry umbrellas through in front of them or suitcases behind them or even some that take children through the normal gates. (That's great to catch those who should have bought a child ticket!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've never done that, but if I see an open gate (for whatever reason, such as someone touching their Oyster but not walking through) then I will not hesitate to walk straight through it.

That's something I don't approve of, I still think people should validate their ticket even if the Gate is momentarily open, as it is open for the other person who validated their ticket/Oyster first! I can see that it is convenient for you, and that you do have a valid ticket, but to us Gateline workers it looks dodgy!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Come to Hitchin in the evening peak, when a 12 coach first stop Hitchin is disgorging. There are usually 3 out and 1 in plus the WAG (operated in much the same manner as previously described by others).

Around how many people get off this train? I know a similarly busy station with a smallish gateline, Walton-on-Thames, with 3 Barriers and 1 WAG, in the peak there may be around 80 passengers getting off a service from Waterloo!

The barriers are easy to operate though so I would expect the staff to modify how many in and out gates to suit the passenger flow, in your example it is possible to have 4 Out Gates and 1 WAG on 1st come 1st served IF the "in" flow isn't busy at all!
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,855
Location
UK
That's something I don't approve of, I still think people should validate their ticket even if the Gate is momentarily open, as it is open for the other person who validated their ticket/Oyster first! I can see that it is convenient for you, and that you do have a valid ticket, but to us Gateline workers it looks dodgy!

I wouldn't do it now as I will be travelling on Oyster PAYG in London, but when I had a (paper) season ticket it was a lot easier than using the ticket validator. With an Oyster, it's obviously dead easy to scan regardless.

I've never had anyone shout after me, or come and talk to me, but then I haven't seen any open gates at Waterloo. Mind you, what I have done is get trapped by the gates (twice) at Waterloo - once on the railway platforms, and the other going to the tube. Totally different times, I might add. I'd made the mistake (which doesn't catch me out now) of being close to someone who obviously didn't have his ticket accepted - and I've scanned my Oyster too quick. As a result, I've let him through with my ticket and - yup - it then closes on me as I go through.

You probably won't like this either, but both times I just forced my way through (which triggers the alarm) and even then, in both cases, nobody did anything! I guess fare evaders probably shouldn't learn that it isn't THAT hard to make the gates open.
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,664
I wouldn't do it now as I will be travelling on Oyster PAYG in London, but when I had a (paper) season ticket it was a lot easier than using the ticket validator. With an Oyster, it's obviously dead easy to scan regardless.

I've never had anyone shout after me, or come and talk to me, but then I haven't seen any open gates at Waterloo. Mind you, what I have done is get trapped by the gates (twice) at Waterloo - once on the railway platforms, and the other going to the tube. Totally different times, I might add. I'd made the mistake (which doesn't catch me out now) of being close to someone who obviously didn't have his ticket accepted - and I've scanned my Oyster too quick. As a result, I've let him through with my ticket and - yup - it then closes on me as I go through.

You probably won't like this either, but both times I just forced my way through (which triggers the alarm) and even then, in both cases, nobody did anything! I guess fare evaders probably shouldn't learn that it isn't THAT hard to make the gates open.

Haha that made my evening, thinking of a RailUK Forum user getting stuck in the barriers :lol:

It's something I've seen before too, one person has their ticket rejected and someone from behind taps their Oyster and lets in the person who really should have seeked assistance! Admittedly it's not your fault as you were well versed in Bariers and just wanted to promptly get through, but I have at times stopped the person who let the first passenger through and told them not to do that again as they could be letting a fare evader into the system!

If someone is stuck in the Barrier, the correct procedure would be for staff to release them using the key or the release button on the SCU (Station control unit) although if a person is stuck and the barrier is hurting them then I see nothing against forcing it open as that may be quicker!

The normal barriers are still relatively strong though, I think you are just a bodybuilder type commuter :lol: It's the WAG's that can be pulled and pushed to easily slip through or failing that people jump over or slide under!
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,855
Location
UK
I presume the gates operate different if they're already closed, as against shutting on an obstruction (i.e. me) so perhaps they require less force to re-open? I wouldn't recommend that anyone just runs at the gates and tries to force them open!

I've seen the same thing happen to many others too, as it will nearly always happen if someone gets a 'seek assistance' when there is a crowd of rushing commuters trying to exit/enter. In fact, the best way to fare evade isn't to wait behind someone but to cut in front and then let the person behind open the gates! All you need is an invalid ticket/Oyster.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
. . . . one person has their ticket rejected and someone from behind taps their Oyster and lets in the person who really should have seeked assistance! Admittedly it's not your fault as you were well versed in Bariers and just wanted to promptly get through, but I have at times stopped the person who let the first passenger through and told them not to do that again as they could be letting a fare evader into the system!
I see that 'technique' of being admitted by the person behind quite regularly at some London stations.

. . . . I'd made the mistake (which doesn't catch me out now) of being close to someone who obviously didn't have his ticket accepted - and I've scanned my Oyster too quick. As a result, I've let him through with my ticket and - yup - it then closes on me as I go through.
Yes, that's how its done. Day in and day out. One day its you and the next its someone else.

Its just another small failure in the big system which, once discovered, will be exploited in large numbers.
 

craigwilson

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2010
Messages
424
Location
Buxton, Derbyshire
Fair point, I was thinking of the Santander cards, but don't HSBC have Solo cards rather than Electron.

No, Solo doesn't exist anymore, and when they made the move to Visa, they didn't go with Electron. All HSBC debit cards are Visa Debit.

one person has their ticket rejected and someone from behind taps their Oyster and lets in the person who really should have seeked assistance!

I had something similar happen to me in Camden Town with a paper ticket a few years back, I put my ticket through, and being fairly new to ticket gates and the underground at the time, I hesitated slightly whilst I collected my ticket again, and some cheeky so-and-so charged through ahead and the gates promptly closed in front of me.

These days I make sure I can touch in and move through the gates in one swift movement if possible and not allow someone else the space to try a "piggy back". I also make a point to watch what the person in front of me is doing and will deliberately hang back if I see a "Seek assistance" and the gates not opening!
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,855
Location
UK
If you use Oyster, the lights are the best way of knowing if the person ahead was allowed through. If it doesn't go green, pause, and let them come back (or try again, which often works - suggesting most people aren't actually fare evaders).

In fact, if someone was on PAYG and it didn't read their card properly, it would no doubt result in them having an open journey (max fare?) even though they'd swear blind they touched in, or out, as the gates opened.
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,664
If you use Oyster, the lights are the best way of knowing if the person ahead was allowed through. If it doesn't go green, pause, and let them come back (or try again, which often works - suggesting most people aren't actually fare evaders).

In fact, if someone was on PAYG and it didn't read their card properly, it would no doubt result in them having an open journey (max fare?) even though they'd swear blind they touched in, or out, as the gates opened.

Very true, but unfortunately from what I've heard, money raised from Max fares goes to TFL. This is slightly unfair if you ask me as it should really be (in part) given to the TOC where the passenger touched in or out!

Also, if it wasn't so busy then Revenue staff will stop people tailgating or going through on someone elses Oyster touch in, the problem is most of the time we are dealing with another passenger already or it's so busy that we just don't see what happened!
 

tannedfrog

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
537
True, but this further proves my point that the scenario of the other poster is very unlikely! A non-busy station with a Gateline should be no problem to exit speedily, and busier/bigger stations often have a large enough Gateline to cope with the flow. Alternatively I can just suggest that anyone that gets into that scenario leaves the train promptly when it gets to their destination so that they get to the barriers before everyone else :)
Travelling contra peak I have often seen only one barrier set to exit, plus a WAG which may be bidirectional but which usually says "please wait", I don't know why they're so slow to think.

I take on board that tailgating is an offence of some kind, although I don't think that BTP are likely to arrest anyone for it, especially a polite passenger with valid ticket
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,664
Travelling contra peak I have often seen only one barrier set to exit, plus a WAG which may be bidirectional but which usually says "please wait", I don't know why they're so slow to think.

I take on board that tailgating is an offence of some kind, although I don't think that BTP are likely to arrest anyone for it, especially a polite passenger with valid ticket

Yes, the First Come First Served setting is almost always applied to WAG's where there is only one of them on the Gateline, what it does is switches ticket/Oyster sensors from side to side every 2 seconds, that's why you see "please wait" sometimes, it is always easier just to push the ticket a little bit in and it will recognise it and read it, same with Oyster, you just need to be a little more patient than with a normal gate.

No you might not get arrested, but it sure looks suspicious, so if you tailgate even with a valid ticket then expect to get stopped, there should be no reason to tailgate, either you are patient and use the gates properly like the other passengers or if your ticket doesn't work the barriers then get a replacement from the ticket office which issued it ;)
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,907
Location
0036
Tailgating through WAGs is a common problem at Waterloo. Some of the common issues we have is that a passenger will ask to be let through because they want to buy their ticket on the train. I say no, and then a few seconds later they tailgate through anyway, or they just go to the TVM and simply buy the lowest priced ticket they can, such as a child single to Vauxhall, to open the gate.

Isn't there usually a couple of RPIs operating impromptu excess windows immediately on the track side of the barrier? Couldn't you get them stopped?
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,664
Isn't there usually a couple of RPIs operating impromptu excess windows immediately on the track side of the barrier? Couldn't you get them stopped?

Waterloo doesn't have any "Excess" windows, the RPI's and RPA's just stand by the railings at the end of the platform, so they do have a good view of the Gateline, but whether they notice tailgating or care is another matter entirely :roll:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top