Major new electrification projects to be anounced shortly

[TheJRB]

Found this document on rail upgrades...

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/illustrative-options.pdf

Hmm. Interesting. I wonder where they're finding the stock to extend Uckfield to 10 carriages...

Also it suggests that Southeastern will receive more electric stock to allow further lengthening of services as well as extra stock for Chiltern too.

 

[SuperOwl86]

Found this document on rail upgrades...

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/illustrative-options.pdf

Just had a quick glance and under other cities it mentions scope for lengthening diesel units, which to me says they not going to do the infills to Doncaster/Moorthorpe from Sheffield.

 

[tbtc]

If I remember correctly the old through service from Notts to Hereford had biblical unreliability problems because of the length of it's journey and so many opportunities for delays to occur, especially at New Street and on the single track section between Malvern and Hereford.

And lets face it, how many people actually travailed the full length of the route on that one? I'd guess not many.

That's why few people were disappointed when it was axed; no last meal, no grieving relatives, no flowers.

If XC do anything then they do long-ish services with very little "end to end" journeys

 

[Batman]

If XC do anything then they do long-ish services with very little "end to end" journeys

True, but the point I'm making is that long distance XC services don't really work well on single track lines. They only add to problems on services where so much can already go wrong simply because of their nature as long distance services.

Those services do have potential to be extended beyond New Street as part of new cross city initiatives and to reduce their exceptionally long turnover time at New Street, but they don't need to go all the way to Nottingham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On other threads before I've argued for Leicester, Coventry and Tamworth to be included as destinations for cross city trains originating from Hereford and Worcester. That's based on proposals in the West Midlands RUS.

 

[Schnellzug]

Sorry, there's so many threads about this it's easy to get confused. So this is all something new, is it? I never heard about it until now. What's this on a map i saw about reading-southampton? Reading-basingtoke, I can understand, but isn't basingstoke-Southampton already? Or are they talking about putting wires up? So where would that go from?

 

[burty76]

If I remember correctly the old through service from Notts to Hereford had biblical unreliability problems because of the length of it's journey and so many opportunities for delays to occur, especially at New Street and on the single track section between Malvern and Hereford.

And lets face it, how many people actually travailed the full length of the route on that one? I'd guess not many.

That's why few people were disappointed when it was axed; no last meal, no grieving relatives, no flowers.

Its 30 mins shorter than the hourly Nottingham - Cardiff....

As for people not travelling the whole length - obviously its mainly a commuter route to Birmingham, but plenty of people (myself and my family included) would use it as far as Derby when travelling to Sheffield / Leeds and further North, instead of having to change at New Street.

The single line section between Malvern and Hereford is an issue, but it still causes problems even when the train just runs to/from Birmingham. And re-instating the through service means you havent got the Hereford train using up a platform at New Street for 40 mins, and the Nottingham one doing the same for 20...

 

[tbtc]

True, but the point I'm making is that long distance XC services don't really work well on single track lines. They only add to problems on services where so much can already go wrong simply because of their nature as long distance services

There's surely enough things that can go wrong running regular trains through bottlenecks like Birmingham New Street/ Leeds, which XC do pretty often - I'm sure that single track would just be another little headache (but not impossible)

Sorry, there's so many threads about this it's easy to get confused. So this is all something new, is it? I never heard about it until now. What's this on a map i saw about reading-southampton? Reading-basingtoke, I can understand, but isn't basingstoke-Southampton already? Or are they talking about putting wires up? So where would that go from?

Yes, Southampton gets wired (to replace Third Rail), which has confused/ surprised a few people

 

[burty76]

On the Basingstoke - Southampton topic, I'm assuming all fast Weymouths will now have to stop at Basingstoke to switch between DC and AC?

 

[swt_passenger]

I sent an enquiry to DfT about this, but not had a response
Is it just me, or does this not add up?
£5.2bn previously announced
£4.2bn announced today
Totals £9.4bn
So where did the £16bn come from?

The £16bn is the 5 yr total shown in the table in the SoFA section of the HLOS document. I think it includes the £9bn, but adds in like for like maintenance/renewals as well. So that would be stuff like signalling re-control that didn't add any new functionality. Resignalling to remodel a station layout OTOH, such as at Nottingham or Derby would be an enhancement.

And today's announcements are really all about enhancements.

(This is based on hazy memories of something I read a few years ago analysing the last HLOS/SofA - I've still got the magazines somewhere so I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can confirm that...)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the Basingstoke - Southampton topic, I'm assuming all fast Weymouths will now have to stop at Basingstoke to switch between DC and AC?

Either that or they'll change on the move. It's perfectly feasible (as discussed in a number of previous threads on the subject) but would need a longer overlap between AC and DC.

 

[HSTEd]

So why are they only doing Basingstoke-Southampton and not Basingstoke-Weymouth?

Surely this "cheaper than renewing" thing applies to the entire section, and wasn't all the electrification beyond Basingstoke done in a single scheme?

 

[Bald Rick]

So why are they only doing Basingstoke-Southampton and not Basingstoke-Weymouth?

Surely this "cheaper than renewing" thing applies to the entire section, and wasn't all the electrification beyond Basingstoke done in a single scheme?

Pirbright Jn - Bournemouth / Branksome depot was 1967
Bournemouth -Weymouth was 1988

 

[Ivo]

All this stuff going on, and a minefield of links...

Was this ever actually mentioned in sesson at Westminster today, and if so, is it available on Parliament TV? If not, will this be the case at a later time?

EDIT: Yes, it is. See here - 1h 29m 46s

All good to head nonetheless. I think the relative date in a few years' time for CP6 will certainly be worth keeping an eye on. We just have to hope that the conversion of the Southern Region doesn't overpower everything else (useful it undoubtedly will be, in spite of the potential difficulties in some areas such as Crystal Palace) and become a major priority against the likes of Bristol to Derby and Selby to Hull.

 

[John55]

So why are they only doing Basingstoke-Southampton and not Basingstoke-Weymouth?

Surely this "cheaper than renewing" thing applies to the entire section, and wasn't all the electrification beyond Basingstoke done in a single scheme?

From the Railways Act 2005 Statement issued this morning.

"37.The southern end of the Electric Spine entails the conversion of a section of the existing Southern ‘third rail’ (750V DC) electrification system to the more modern and capable ‘overhead’ (25kV AC) system to upgrade its capability. The Secretary of State also wishes the industry to develop a longer-term proposition and business case for the systematic upgrade from DC to AC of the whole Southern network, for consideration for future control periods. As part of this work the industry will wish to treat the conversion work required for Southampton to Basingstoke as a pilot scheme for such a potential modernisation programme, and review plans for renewing or upgrading the DC network to avoid the risk of nugatory expenditure."

http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012

 

[PhilipW]

So why are they only doing Basingstoke-Southampton and not Basingstoke-Weymouth?

Surely this "cheaper than renewing" thing applies to the entire section, and wasn't all the electrification beyond Basingstoke done in a single scheme?

The initial conversion is from Basingstoke to Southampton Port (about 1 mile west of Southampton Central). So the hope/belief is that freight will be one of the initial users.

Cross Country with their e-Voyagers will also be able to use it as soon as it is ready. On the Bournemouth-Manchester route it will now be electric all the way from Southampton to Manchester.

I don't know if it is sensible or even possible to run third rail DC and 25KV overhead at the same time for any prolonged period. At some point SWT will need a new sub-fleet of Class 444 and Class 450 created that will be able to operate on dual-voltage.

 

[Donny Dave]

Hands up if like me, you didn't see Reading - Southampton conversion coming?

I don't know if it is sensible or even possible to run third rail DC and 25KV overhead at the same time for any prolonged period. At some point SWT will need a new sub-fleet of Class 444 and Class 450 created that will be able to operate on dual-voltage.

Should be easy enough, all they need to do in preparation is send the 444s and 450s for a refurb/refit 1 at a time while the OHLE is being installed, then apart from the 455s and 458s, they have a fleet of go-anywhere electrics.

I'm presuming that Southampton - Weymouth and various other parts of 3rd rail land will be converted in CP6.

However, with today's announcement, I still feel the DfT have missed a trick in excluding Birmingham - Derby and various lines around Sheffield from CP5 electrification schemes. The potential is there for a lot of services to be converted to EMU operation, but will have to stay DMU operated as the OHLE will be dis-jointed. For example. Newcastle - Reading/Southampton. The majority of the route will be under wires soon, apart from Doncaster - Sheffield and Derby - Birmingham.

While the big announcement today was a very good one for the railway in general, I don't think it has been that well thought out. The various schemes seem to have been picked out of a hat at random, and apart from the MML, don't make that much sense when looked at individually.

 

[TheJRB]

Hands up if like me, you didn't see Reading - Southampton conversion coming?

Didn't see that coming or Walsall to Rugeley TV (but it certainly makes sense).

Should be easy enough, all they need to do in preparation is send the 444s and 450s for a refurb/refit 1 at a time while the OHLE is being installed, then apart from the 455s and 458s, they have a fleet of go-anywhere electrics.

As I have no clue about this sort of thing, how easy will it be to convert 450s and 444s to dual voltage operation?

I'm presuming that Southampton - Weymouth and various other parts of 3rd rail land will be converted in CP6.

On a related note, does this now change the rule wihich allows fill in electrification (for instance Uckfield and Marshlink) to be done with third rail? Will all further electrification, even in the south, now have to be overhead?

 

[Donny Dave]

As I have no clue about this sort of thing, how easy will it be to convert 450s and 444s to dual voltage operation?

Quite easy, as they were built with dual voltage in mind, so have a panto well built in. Simply put, all they need to do is bolt on a panto, wire it up and re-configure the TMS and jobs a good 'un.

 

[hwl]

Quite easy, as they were built with dual voltage in mind, so have a panto well built in. Simply put, all they need to do is bolt on a panto, wire it up and re-configure the TMS and jobs a good 'un.

And bolt on a large transformer under the floor too.
(note the large transformer sized gap left under the floor)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

MAYBE SLIGHTLY off topic but I sure hope those stored 92s will now be put to good use

 

[Schnellzug]

So what sort of timescale are we talking about for all these ambitious ideas?

 

[WatcherZero]

Not going down well with the Devon press....

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/story-16547558-detail/story.html

 

[Schnellzug]

Not going down well with the Devon press....

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/story-16547558-detail/story.html

Journalists have never grasped that that's just the minimum specification, have they?

"During months of talks, the local authority asked for a 30-minute service between Penzance and Exeter to be included in the franchise specification."

Really?

 

[WatcherZero]

Its not really that surprising, its the same publisher as the Derby press and their first instict is to bash every rail story!

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/story-16547929-detail/story.html

 

[Schnellzug]

Its not really that surprising, its the same publisher as the Derby press and their first instict is to bash every rail story!

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/story-16547929-detail/story.html

I see they managed to squeeze in Bob being angry about something into the bargain.

 

[DXMachina]

re Recent threads about the Merseyrail fleet needing replacement. Maybe if the 508s can be patched up for another few years or something else borrowed as an infill, they can then have some of the non-25kv-capable stock that SR AC work will make redundant...

 

[Schnellzug]

re Recent threads about the Merseyrail fleet needing replacement. Maybe if the 508s can be patched up for another few years or something else borrowed as an infill, they can then have some of the non-25kv-capable stock that SR AC work will make redundant...

I think that would be a very long term aspiration, since the only thing they seem to be talking about so far is Basingstoke-Southampton, and that won't make anything redundant yet.

 

[WatcherZero]

re Recent threads about the Merseyrail fleet needing replacement. Maybe if the 508s can be patched up for another few years or something else borrowed as an infill, they can then have some of the non-25kv-capable stock that SR AC work will make redundant...

Their pretty fixed on new build stock for Merseyrail.

 

[swt_passenger]

So what sort of timescale are we talking about for all these ambitious ideas?

Some time during Network Rail Control Period 5, which is Apr 2014 to Apr 2019.

Just like in CP4, 2009 - 2014, don't expect everything to start on day 1 - so some jobs might not start for another 6 years or more.

 

[jopsuk]

Its not really that surprising, its the same publisher as the Derby press and their first instict is to bash every rail story!

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/story-16547929-detail/story.html

Northcliffe is owned by the Daily Mail and General Trust, the owners of (unsurprisingly) the Daily Mail and The Mail on Sunday. Similarly you should not be suprised by political leanings of Yattendon Group papers as their owner is long standing Tory donor.

 

[A0]

I think there are two routes from Marylebone to Aylesbury, only one of which traverses LU rails, and could stay with its 165/6/8 stock.

Wiring to there has certain advantages in giving another electric route from Bletchley (in future) to London but its hardly going to be a priority

Given the OP stated 'Marylebone to Aylesbury' and 'Aylesbury to Princes Risboro', that was the reason I said good luck with Marylebone to Aylesbury.

The choice there eventually will be one of the following:

- Leave as is with DMUs Amersham - Marylebone.
- Dual electrification to Amersham - Harrow - though I don't believe LUL will be keen on that.
- LUL abandon Amersham - Harrow (highly unlikely)
- Dual voltage units which could work on LUL infrastructure with changeover at Amersham - more likely.