Major new electrification projects to be anounced shortly

[LE Greys]

Well, lots of good news so far. There's a lot of spin on it though, "Biggest modernisation since the Victorian period", aren't we forgetting the Modernisation Plan?
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Maybe it's been well thought through and it is about removing small pockets of DMUs on discrete sections where they can, to allow cascades to (or back to) the larger DMU areas?

Like LM's two units that operate Marston Vale on a 'long lead' from Tysely for instance?

Precisely. Small pockets of DMU operation can be a major headache, with maintenance expenses probably being the worst part of it. I'm not sure we'll ever see it eliminated completely, but let's hope this goes part-way to it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Greening just said to a Blackburn MP asking about potential improvements in service between Blackpool and Blackburn that he should take it up with his local PTE :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Greening just said to a Blackburn MP asking about potential improvements in service between Blackpool and Blackburn that he should take it up with his local PTE :roll:

Who should have responded asking when a Lancashire PTE is being set up.

 

[WatcherZero]

She said the same thing to the Blackpool MP!

I dont think she knows much about Northern transport!
Only newish thing ive picked out of the Q&A in Parliament was she did confirm they would rebalance the IEP order now their doing Swansea. No one has asked the important question where all the electric trains are going to come from, she kinda hinted more IEP would be ordered as part of the future rolling stock orders to deal with all this electrification.

 

[LE Greys]

There's a lot of fuss about fare increases from various places. No pleasing some people! :roll: Still, I don't think it's necessarily likely, since the cost of diesel is a major factor currently pushing fares up.

 

[WatcherZero]

There's a lot of fuss about fare increases from various places. No pleasing some people! :roll: Still, I don't think it's necessarily likely, since the cost of diesel is a major factor currently pushing fares up.

Historically in the rail industry its been wage rises that have been the major increasing cost not fuel.

 

[DXMachina]

Sidelined Cl.92s coming back into use and any 86s that are sitting around waiting for tentative export orders might find themselves back in use also temporarily?

 

[tbtc]

It would be ludicrous not to transfer the Rugeley local services over to electric operation if the route gets electrified.

LM's DMU situation is one of the interesting subplots to today's news. No 153/170s needed for the Chase line, no 150/153s needed for the Marston Vale line, no 153s for the Coventry - Nuneaton line (or did I dream that was being wired?)... it leaves only the Snow Hill 172s and the 170s for Shrewsbury/Hereford - a pretty small number of DMUs.

East Midlands Trains complete replacement of existing diesel fleet

Unless you are telling me that the Lincolnshire branches and entire line from Norwich to Liverpool are being wired then I doubt it'll be a complete replacement

There's a lot of fuss about fare increases from various places. No pleasing some people! :roll: Still, I don't think it's necessarily likely, since the cost of diesel is a major factor currently pushing fares up.

One minute we are being told that electrification will save money and be much more efficient (Cheaper "fuel", lighter trains meaning less impact on track etc), the next that this will cost more? Brilliant....

 

[Waverley125]

I'd guess the 15x DMUs off of LM will go to Northern/FGW for pacer replacement/service strengthening.

As for the rest of the XC route & TPE, it does, when you think about it, make sense. By the time CP6 rolls around a lot of the current rolling stock fleet will be needing replacement. Wire the 'gaps', and some other strategic lines (i.e. Chiltern, Caldervale, Felixstowe-Birmingham), and you then have a bunch of 16x, 17x, 18x & 22x DMUs to be cascaded around the country to replace the by then worn-out 15x series.

Also true of Scotland, where EGIP & putative electrification of lines to Aberdeen/Inverness will allow the retirement of 156s & 158s, and allow their replacement with an internal turbostar cascade.

 

[Batman]

LM's DMU situation is one of the interesting subplots to today's news. No 153/170s needed for the Chase line, no 150/153s needed for the Marston Vale line, no 153s for the Coventry - Nuneaton line (or did I dream that was being wired?)... it leaves only the Snow Hill 172s and the 170s for Shrewsbury/Hereford - a pretty small number of DMUs.

I agree, that's going to resolve many of LM's rolling stock problems almost overnight.

LM should be able to dispose of all it's 150's and 153's whilst still having more than enough 170's left to run the Shrewsbury and Hereford services and the 2 diagrams they're used for on the Snow Hill lines.

LM should be in need of an extra nine or ten 350's by my working out.

4 for Chase line workings, with 1 for peak extras.

2 for Walsall-Birmingham-Wolverhmapton workings alongside the 3 that are already on order and 1 for the New Street-International shuttle, allowing 3 more 323's to be released to the Cross City.

1 for Nuneaton - Coventry services. A second unit may be needed is this service becomes half hourly or it is extended through to Leamington.
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I've excluded the Marston Vale line from that because that is tied in with the East-West rail project and will more than likely come under a different franchise once it's operational. My guess would be Chiltern.

 

[LE Greys]

One minute we are being told that electrification will save money and be much more efficient (Cheaper "fuel", lighter trains meaning less impact on track etc), the next that this will cost more? Brilliant....

Precisely. It seems to be more about the media (most of my information comes from the BBC) not thinking it through or listening to the wrong 'experts' than any actual analysis of the situation. Hopefully, somebody will think to look at the actual figures before the story goes away.

 

[Batman]

Does anyone know how many units are required for peak extras on the New Street-Hereford service (or are likely to be needed once desired lengthening has been accounted for)?

I'm trying to work out how LM's 170's will be allocated post Chase electrification.

 

[tbtc]

I agree, that's going to resolve many of LM's rolling stock problems almost overnight.

LM should be able to dispose of all it's 150's and 153's whilst still having more than enough 170's left to run the Shrewsbury and Hereford services and the 2 diagrams they're used for on the Snow Hill lines.

LM should be in need of an extra nine or ten 350's by my working out.

4 for Chase line workings, with 1 for peak extras.

2 for Walsall-Birmingham-Wolverhmapton workings alongside the 3 that are already on order and 1 for the New Street-International shuttle, allowing 3 more 323's to be released to the Cross City.

1 for Nuneaton - Coventry services. A second unit may be needed is this service becomes half hourly or it is extended through to Leamington.
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I've excluded the Marston Vale line from that because that is tied in with the East-West rail project and will more than likely come under a different franchise once it's operational. My guess would be Chiltern.

It's looking good isn't it all the speculation you see on sites like this is suddenly becoming written in stone.

Hopefully the order for 350s currently being created for LM/TPE can be extended a bit more? Or some more 172s to take over the remaining few Snow Hill services?

In fact, thinking about it, if you gave Snow Hill to Chiltern, gave Hereford to XC (which used to be a Nottingham - Hereford route) and Shrewsbury to ATW (who run Birmingham - Shrewsbury already) then LM could be a 100% electrified operation.

Precisely. It seems to be more about the media (most of my information comes from the BBC) not thinking it through or listening to the wrong 'experts' than any actual analysis of the situation. Hopefully, somebody will think to look at the actual figures before the story goes away.

I suppose it's the British way of looking for something to complain about - nobody can really criticise the news (environmentally friendly, creates jobs, improves train services etc) so have to find something to nit-pick about

 

[Batman]

It's looking good isn't it all the speculation you see on sites like this is suddenly becoming written in stone.

Hopefully the order for 350s currently being created for LM/TPE can be extended a bit more? Or some more 172s to take over the remaining few Snow Hill services?

In fact, thinking about it, if you gave Snow Hill to Chiltern, gave Hereford to XC (which used to be a Nottingham - Hereford route) and Shrewsbury to ATW (who run Birmingham - Shrewsbury already) then LM could be a 100% electrified operation.

That sounds like a good idea, although three TOC's at Worcester might throw up a few problems. But keeping the franchises as they are, I've just do a draft rolling stock allocation for LM's 170's and it looks like there may well be 3 150's and 7 153's on their way up to Northern.

If they could order four more 2 car 172's (to replace the current 170/153 combi workings on the Snow Hill, which alternatively could be operated by 2 170/5's coupled together) that would be great. And 2 more 3 care 172's would be great for the Snow Hill lines as well. One to alleviate the fact the DfT ordered one less 172 than we needed to fully replace the 150 fleet and one more to help ease overcrowding from Snow Hill.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hence post #33. Assume dual voltage infrastructure south of Basingstoke.

Humble Pie time. I have it on good authority that the third rail will be taken up between Basingstoke and Soton. Evidently the cost of putting the wires up is less than the cost of umpteen substations that all need renewing as they approach their 50th birthday. And converting the trains to dual volatge is more than paid for by the savings in transmission losses.

What is most telling is what is left out. Marylebone - Aynho is a gimme for the next Chiltern franchise, ditto the missing links on the XC routes (Bristol - Leeds) and the remaining suburban lines in Birmingham. Besides there's not the industry capacity to do any more in CP5.

This is the best day for the rail industry for a long, long time. Hats off to the people who have spent several years crunching the numbers and doing the long briefings / arguing with those who hold the purse strings. You know who you are.

 

[burty76]

That sounds like a good idea, although three TOC's at Worcester might throw up a few problems. But keeping the franchises as they are, I've just do a draft rolling stock allocation for LM's 170's and it looks like there may well be 3 150's and 7 153's on their way up to Northern.

If they could order four more 2 car 172's (to replace the current 170/153 combi workings on the Snow Hill, which alternatively could be operated by 2 170/5's coupled together) that would be great. And 2 more 3 care 172's would be great for the Snow Hill lines as well. One to alleviate the fact the DfT ordered one less 172 than we needed to fully replace the 150 fleet and one more to help ease overcrowding from Snow Hill.

Why would 3 TOC's at Worcester would be a problem?

Extending the current Nottingham - Birmingham to Hereford would work perfectly, with some extra peak time LM services Malvern/Worcester to Birmingham.

When Bromsgrove becomes part of Cross-City, then the Hereford - Nottingham could just call at Droitwich between Worcester and Brum, with a journey time of about 35 minutes.

 

[WatcherZero]

350 options should be exhausted now so no more tacking on there, though may speed the introduction of TPE new rolling stock so the 350's can be released even faster.

The rail magazines will probably squeeze out a few more details over the next couple of weeks from interviewing officials, briefings and their confidential sources. Still this does leave a LOT of unanswered questions about rolling stock plan going forward. Remember its late procurement of rolling stock like Thameslink and IEP and the dithering over a new DMU order thats got us into the present mess.

 

[Batman]

Why would 3 TOC's at Worcester would be a problem?

Extending the current Nottingham - Birmingham to Hereford would work perfectly, with some extra peak time LM services Malvern/Worcester to Birmingham.

When Bromsgrove becomes part of Cross-City, then the Hereford - Nottingham could just call at Droitwich between Worcester and Brum, with a journey time of about 35 minutes.

I know for a fact that once Bromsgrove has been wired up the Hereford trains will still call there.

It's so that local station on Cross City south (such as Longbridge, now an important employment centre on the site of the old Leyland plant) can have connectivity to the south without passengers having to change at University and come back on themselves.

If you removed that stop Worcestershire county council would go mad.

 

[burty76]

I know for a fact that once Bromsgrove has been wired up the Hereford trains will still call there.

It's so that local station on Cross City south (such as Longbridge, now an important employment centre on the site of the old Leyland plant) can have connectivity to the south without passengers having to change at University and come back on themselves.

If you removed that stop Worcestershire county council would go mad.

You could have an hourly LM service :
Malvern / Worcester - Droitwich - Bromsgrove - Barnt Green (for Redditch) - University - New Street

to run alongside the Hereford - Nottingham which would be an express

 

[Batman]

You could have an hourly LM service :
Malvern / Worcester - Droitwich - Bromsgrove - Barnt Green (for Redditch) - University - New Street

to run alongside the Hereford - Nottingham which would be an express

Sorry, I thought you were suggesting that no regional or semi fast trains call at Bromsgrove.

And I also forgot about the small Bromsgrove-Worcester commuter market that would be killed off.

You're suggestion is what I had in mind.

I've always questioned the need for Bromsgrove to become part of the Cross City.

Yes the station needs total redevelopment, but it doesn't need more than 2 six car platforms on the main running lines for through trains.

If you have a 2tph New Street - Wocester service and the hourly Nottingham - Cardiff service calls there you've got 2tph to Worcester and 3tph to Brum.

2 of those could run non-stop to New Street with one making stops at Barnt Green (for Redditch), Longbridge (for the new college and business park, would need new cross overs) and University.

 

[burty76]

It does seem like an unnecessary addition to the X-City network. Will eliminate conflicting paths of terminating trains at Longbridge, but put extra pressure on Bart Green/Lickey Incline.

I'm assuming that the new Bromsgrove station will have a large car park? Its so far out of town that outside the peak it doesnt really need more than an hourly service.

I expect a lot of Bromsgrove commuters rarely get a seat with all trains coming from Hereford/Worcester. At least with the X-City trains starting there they will be able to - though the journey time will be about 10 mins slower with the extra stops...

 

[tbtc]

That sounds like a good idea, although three TOC's at Worcester might throw up a few problems. But keeping the franchises as they are, I've just do a draft rolling stock allocation for LM's 170's and it looks like there may well be 3 150's and 7 153's on their way up to Northern

I was thinking that a tiny fleet of DMUs would be increasingly expensive for LM to operate, and there are certainly "geographical co-ordination" reasons for giving Shrewsbury to ATW and Snow Hill to Chiltern (the "logic" for XC taking over Hereford being partly to tie up two terminating 170s in New Street)

Humble Pie time. I have it on good authority that the third rail will be taken up between Basingstoke and Soton. Evidently the cost of putting the wires up is less than the cost of umpteen substations that all need renewing as they approach their 50th birthday. And converting the trains to dual volatge is more than paid for by the savings in transmission losses.

What is most telling is what is left out. Marylebone - Aynho is a gimme for the next Chiltern franchise, ditto the missing links on the XC routes (Bristol - Leeds) and the remaining suburban lines in Birmingham. Besides there's not the industry capacity to do any more in CP5.

This is the best day for the rail industry for a long, long time. Hats off to the people who have spent several years crunching the numbers and doing the long briefings / arguing with those who hold the purse strings. You know who you are.

Excellent post

350 options should be exhausted now so no more tacking on there, though may speed the introduction of TPE new rolling stock so the 350's can be released even faster

Oh well - would have been nice

 

[tec]

Found this document on rail upgrades...

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/illustrative-options.pdf

 

[IanXC]

LM should be in need of an extra nine or ten 350's by my working out.

Lucky that there are 10 (potentially cascadable) 350/4s...

Although that then places a question on the future of LM's 7x 321s as I have felt for some time that they could be sensibly replaced with the 350/4 (subject to an internal cascade).

 

[burty76]

I was thinking that a tiny fleet of DMUs would be increasingly expensive for LM to operate, and there are certainly "geographical co-ordination" reasons for giving Shrewsbury to ATW and Snow Hill to Chiltern (the "logic" for XC taking over Hereford being partly to tie up two terminating 170s in New Street)
(

Would you envisage XC also operating peak time extra Worcester - Birmingham trains? Would these trains be stabled overnight in Worcester?

 

[tbtc]

Would you envisage XC also operating peak time extra Worcester - Birmingham trains? Would these trains be stabled overnight in Worcester?

Yeah - no different to LM running these peak extra 170s really - same trains, same pattern, just with the hourly Hereford service running to/from Nottingham as it used to in Central Trains days (so not having two services clogging up New Street platforms for most of the hour)

 

[burty76]

Yeah - no different to LM running these peak extra 170s really - same trains, same pattern, just with the hourly Hereford service running to/from Nottingham as it used to in Central Trains days (so not having two services clogging up New Street platforms for most of the hour)

Its a bit different though as it would mean XC running short-distance commuter trains, and all their current fleet has 1st class

 

[tbtc]

Its a bit different though as it would mean XC running short-distance commuter trains, and all their current fleet has 1st class

They run Birmingham - Leicester services though.

And I'm sure the good people of Worcester have some who would pay for First Class?

 

[burty76]

They run Birmingham - Leicester services though.

And I'm sure the good people of Worcester have some who would pay for First Class?

True.

I'm sure some would pay for 1st class but capacity is a big issue - theyd need to be 2x2 car 170's at least if some seating was given over to 1st class

 

[Batman]

Yeah - no different to LM running these peak extra 170s really - same trains, same pattern, just with the hourly Hereford service running to/from Nottingham as it used to in Central Trains days (so not having two services clogging up New Street platforms for most of the hour)

If I remember correctly the old through service from Notts to Hereford had biblical unreliability problems because of the length of it's journey and so many opportunities for delays to occur, especially at New Street and on the single track section between Malvern and Hereford.

And lets face it, how many people actually travailed the full length of the route on that one? I'd guess not many.

That's why few people were disappointed when it was axed; no last meal, no grieving relatives, no flowers.