Lothian group (Network/Route Speculation)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

If there's a rail link between Winchburgh and Edinburgh there will definitely be a knock-on effect if taking the train is quicker.

There’s definitely adjustments to be made. No doubt subsidies required in certain places.

 

[InOban]

If the train is quicker? The train will take less than 20 minutes at any time of the day while the X19 takes an hour even at off-peak times, and considerably longer at rush hour.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

If the train is quicker? The train will take less than 20 minutes at any time of the day while the X19 takes an hour even at off-peak times, and considerably longer at rush hour.

Doesn’t mean it will write the bus off though. Plenty other places where the train is considerably quicker yet fast bus routes to town still exist.

 

[overthewater]

Doesn’t mean it will write the bus off though. Plenty other places where the train is considerably quicker yet fast bus routes to town still exist.

The trouble is, there 4 buses an hour on that route, and it has competition. I can't see both staying on.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The trouble is, there 4 buses an hour on that route, and it has competition. I can't see both staying on.

No. That I would agree with, but I can’t see them cutting all 4 buses per hour. More likely that local options are increased.

 

[endecotp]

Dear Experts,

I'm looking at the bus frequencies for the 7, 14 and 49, i.e. the three routes that go from The Bridges to Leith Walk. Does anyone have any record of how these have changed, in particular since the Leith Walk trams started? I have the impression that they are now less frequent, but maybe I'm just less patient than I used to be when I'm standing at a bus stop.

Thanks.

 

[overthewater]

Service 49 has always been 20mins service has it not?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Dear Experts,

I'm looking at the bus frequencies for the 7, 14 and 49, i.e. the three routes that go from The Bridges to Leith Walk. Does anyone have any record of how these have changed, in particular since the Leith Walk trams started? I have the impression that they are now less frequent, but maybe I'm just less patient than I used to be when I'm standing at a bus stop.

Thanks.

7 and 14 were every 12 minutes, both now every 20 minutes. 49 I think has sustained every 20 minutes for a long time now, possibly since it was converted from single decks about 10 years ago.

 

[danielhogg2005]

7 and 14 were every 12 minutes, both now every 20 minutes. 49 I think has sustained every 20 minutes for a long time now, possibly since it was converted from single decks about 10 years ago.

Yes, the 49 used to be every 15 minutes, but I believe this was stopped when it's brief split termini at Dalkeith Campus was given to the 3 instead.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

If they extend the X19 to Bo'ness in Falkirk it could have a better purpose and if advertised properly and used it could pick up passengers in both Bo'ness and Winchburgh whilst maintaining the fast link in Edinburgh as well for residents in Kirkliston, Newbridge, Drum Brae etc.

I would see them going as far as Linlithgow via the M9 but that's about it, but even then I don't see them doing anything more with the X19 unless the X38 gets re-routed heavily or withdrawn, the last service change didn't do much with the X19 except add in a short run to/from Kirkliston.

The X19 from what I've witnessed the past year seems to be doing okay, I guess it depends on the time of day, but then again I can never tell if the passengers are from Winchburgh/Kirkliston or even the Drum Brae area.

 

[stevenedin]

I would see them going as far as Linlithgow via the M9 but that's about it, but even then I don't see them doing anything more with the X19 unless the X38 gets re-routed heavily or withdrawn, the last service change didn't do much with the X19 except add in a short run to/from Kirkliston.

The X19 from what I've witnessed the past year seems to be doing okay, I guess it depends on the time of day, but then again I can never tell if the passengers are from Winchburgh/Kirkliston or even the Drum Brae area.

On another note, I've noticed a drop in passengers on the X27 and X28 within Edinburgh now that they have cut out stops. I'm not so sure that was the right decision. There have been one or two times where the bus has been so slow as it is ahead of schedule or the bus has to stop at a stop for a bit.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I would see them going as far as Linlithgow via the M9 but that's about it, but even then I don't see them doing anything more with the X19 unless the X38 gets re-routed heavily or withdrawn, the last service change didn't do much with the X19 except add in a short run to/from Kirkliston.

The X19 from what I've witnessed the past year seems to be doing okay, I guess it depends on the time of day, but then again I can never tell if the passengers are from Winchburgh/Kirkliston or even the Drum Brae area.

I don't think add in is the best way of wording it. It's more an existing journey being reduced to allow better spread of buses now that one X19 changes to the X18.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I've been considering the idea of the 42 (Davidson's Mains - Potterrow) being reintroduced as a supported service with it then taking on the current 60 route between Potterrow and Holyrood. The 42 has very occasionally appeared in the supported service documents as a possible gap that could be explored in the future (although I think the chance of this actually happening is very low unfortunately). I'm also just thinking about how the Dumbiedykes service could be used by other users along the route. At the moment there is not much new provided because it shares a lot with the 2 and 12.

I've mainly been looking at better options for Dumbiedykes with a route providing more than just links into parts of the city centre.
I was also looking at reintroducing links that were removed with the 42 when it was withdrawn a few years ago. This includes some links that were available on the 41 at the time that no longer aren't, such as Davidson's Mains to Hanover Street (access to Princes Street), George IV bridge, etc. That's why I have also included the Davidson's Mains stretch as part of this idea.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I've been considering the idea of the 42 (Davidson's Mains - Potterrow) being reintroduced as a supported service with it then taking on the current 60 route between Potterrow and Holyrood. The 42 has very occasionally appeared in the supported service documents as a possible gap that could be explored in the future (although I think the chance of this actually happening is very low unfortunately). I'm also just thinking about how the Dumbiedykes service could be used by other users along the route. At the moment there is not much new provided because it shares a lot with the 2 and 12.

I've mainly been looking at better options for Dumbiedykes with a route providing more than just links into parts of the city centre.
I was also looking at reintroducing links that were removed with the 42 when it was withdrawn a few years ago. This includes some links that were available on the 41 at the time that no longer aren't, such as Davidson's Mains to Hanover Street (access to Princes Street), George IV bridge, etc. That's why I have also included the Davidson's Mains stretch as part of this idea.

I think this is a reasonable idea. Could any such idea not be tied in with the 13 as well? I still see limited benefit in the 13 east of the city centre.

Possibly two circle services (clockwise 13 and anti-clockwise 13A) doing Holyrood-Pleasance-Surgeons Hall-Bristo Square-The Mound-Hanover Street as per what you said.

Then clockwise route is as per 13’s current route to the end of Ravelston Dykes Road followed by Strachan Road-March Road-Craigcrook Road-Quality Street to Tesco. This would avoid the bus running past Blackhall Primary School, which probably isn’t a bad thing. From there as per the 42’s old route from Tesco back to Hanover Street, but running via Groathill Avenue instead of the long way round at Blackhall - the route would likely use StreetAir’s which could handle that road easily. Yes, March Road would lose the faster route to Craigleith, but Tesco seems the obvious shopping link here anyway rather than Sainsbury’s. Ravelston would maintain the 38 so no loss there and it would offer a different yet just as quick route to town as the 47 for Davidson’s Mains.

The two circles would be hourly so you’d average out a bus roughly every half hour from Davidson’s Mains Tesco. Probably needs 3 buses to run? No cost to the taxpayer as the 13 and 60 currently use 3 buses between them anyway.

 

[overthewater]

The passengers want to go to Craigleith Retail park, so this will create alot of unhappy passengers.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The passengers want to go to Craigleith Retail park, so this will create alot of unhappy passengers.

And the proof of this is? Most people shop at the closest place. The 38 still covers many of the 13’s links and the link is not lost, just slower.

The 13 is never that busy in or out of Craigleith. Usually 2 or 3 people. Doesn’t pick up until March Road.

 

[overthewater]

Travel on the bus or look at the passengers that get on at craigleith. There was a point in time when the 13 never went to Craigleith and the public kicked up a stink.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Travel on the bus or look at the passengers that get on at craigleith. There was a point in time when the 13 never went to Craigleith and the public kicked up a stink.

I find it slightly hard to believe that March Road to Craigleith is that popular. As I say, usually 2-3 at most if I do it.

You’re not getting cut off if you’re offering a link to a shop that’s closer.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Following the councils latest meeting regarding the tenders, talk turned to them potentially routing the 70/71 to serve Ingilston P&R, and enhance the frequency of the 32 along with a Sunday service and later journeys.

Apparently the 32 has been doing quite well and they are looking to improve the service.

 

[mb88]

Following the councils latest meeting regarding the tenders, talk turned to them potentially routing the 70/71 to serve Ingilston P&R

Not sure what the benefit of this is when interchange is already available with the trams at the Gyle. Only thing it would achieve would be poorer reliability.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Not sure what the benefit of this is when interchange is already available with the trams at the Gyle. Only thing it would achieve would be poorer reliability.

Whatever the reason is, I'm sure maybe it's to help make travel easier to the airport? I don't know, I do agree that the Gyle already works as an interchange (and Gogarburn for an X18/19 direct into the city)

If anything, they could probably do with maybe improving the frequency on the 70/71 as a whole, maybe every 40 minutes?

I'm sure whenever the 32 gets improvements it will start with a 40 minutes frequency as that seems to be the norm nowadays, it seems the Cramond - Gyle section is clearly more popular, but Heriot Watt - Curriehill seems to have been quite a popular choice too.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Whatever the reason is, I'm sure maybe it's to help make travel easier to the airport? I don't know, I do agree that the Gyle already works as an interchange (and Gogarburn for an X18/19 direct into the city)

If anything, they could probably do with maybe improving the frequency on the 70/71 as a whole, maybe every 40 minutes?

I'm sure whenever the 32 gets improvements it will start with a 40 minutes frequency as that seems to be the norm nowadays, it seems the Cramond - Gyle section is clearly more popular, but Heriot Watt - Curriehill seems to have been quite a popular choice too.

I can’t think of a single reason why serving Ingliston is beneficial, but I guess only those surveyed would be able to tell you why they’d want it. The use of deckers is a problem to be honest as it makes the buses look dead and makes you think any frequency increase is therefore extremely unlikely. I understand why they are deckers from an operational point of view, but in practical terms it is a total waste.

I think there’s a good chance the 32 goes up to every 40 minutes at the next chance. The Turnhouse idea wouldn’t be sensible until a retender.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I can’t think of a single reason why serving Ingliston is beneficial, but I guess only those surveyed would be able to tell you why they’d want it. The use of deckers is a problem to be honest as it makes the buses look dead and makes you think any frequency increase is therefore extremely unlikely. I understand why they are deckers from an operational point of view, but in practical terms it is a total waste.

This is a good factor to account, I think if Lothian Country has single deckers they would be allocated to the 70/71 specifically, they aren't dead services to a degree but they are definitely overcompensating.

I think there’s a good chance the 32 goes up to every 40 minutes at the next chance. The Turnhouse idea wouldn’t be sensible until a retender.

I wonder how popular Turnhouse is in terms of passenger numbers, specifically on the 68.

 

[Acfb]

Whatever the reason is, I'm sure maybe it's to help make travel easier to the airport? I don't know, I do agree that the Gyle already works as an interchange (and Gogarburn for an X18/19 direct into the city)

If anything, they could probably do with maybe improving the frequency on the 70/71 as a whole, maybe every 40 minutes?

I'm sure whenever the 32 gets improvements it will start with a 40 minutes frequency as that seems to be the norm nowadays, it seems the Cramond - Gyle section is clearly more popular, but Heriot Watt - Curriehill seems to have been quite a popular choice too.

They need to retime the 32 to connect with trains at Curriehill station for buses coming from Balerno at least in the Glasgow direction, even if remains every hour. I assume there should be reasonable usage on the Gyle to Cramond section although I only went on it once last year between the Gyle and Cramond.

I was surprised there hadn't been a commercial bus link for a long time between Maybury and Barnton I was checking an old bus map from 2004 and I forgot the 24 briefly went out that way. You'd think there would be demand for it, especially now.

 

[Willie622]

And I think would be great if service 20 to be longer served end expected from Asda chester and put back to glye center with every 20 minutes and beoand from after 2pm better service for kingknowe people

 

[stevenedin]

With regards to the 44, I'm of the (surely unpopular) opinion that perhaps it is time that the route is split. There are constantly delays to the service resulting in two or three buses following one another by the time they get to Wallyford, I can only imagine it's the same at the Balerno end as well.

A long route is great for connectivity but woeful but reliability and the 44 has steadily been getting worse these past few years. I'm not sure what a reasonable suggestion could be but I do think a good network wide review of routes should take place in order to try and work out the most reliable version of the routes.

I feel that the 44 could be extended to Seafield it could either run along the same route then turn left past Eastfield, Joppa and Portobello up Seafield Road East and Seafield Road terminating at the same stop as the 1.

I can only see the above happening once the new houses have been built along Seafield Road East.

The Wallyford to Edinburgh section could be served by a new East Coast Buses route numbered something like 144.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

The Wallyford to Edinburgh section could be served by a new East Coast Buses route numbered something like 144.

East Coast is already stretched with resources so some route cuts are to be expected somewhere. The 44 will not be replaced as ECB simply couldn't replace the route, additionally in the past a Portobello to Seafield section hasn't been used well. Most recent example was the 129 from First and later Eves.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

East Coast is already stretched with resources so some route cuts are to be expected somewhere. The 44 will not be replaced as ECB simply couldn't replace the route, additionally in the past a Portobello to Seafield section hasn't been used well. Most recent example was the 129 from First and later Eves.

I don't think a new route needs to be created exactly, maybe just reroute the 113 via Pinkie Road and Macbeth Moir Road and the do the N113 route via Wallyford covering Fa'side Avenue and Masons Way.

All areas covered and then you've got no need for the 44 beyond Edinburgh.

 

[Avenger20]

I feel that the 44 could be extended to Seafield it could either run along the same route then turn left past Eastfield, Joppa and Portobello up Seafield Road East and Seafield Road terminating at the same stop as the 1.

I can only see the above happening once the new houses have been built along Seafield Road East.

The Wallyford to Edinburgh section could be served by a new East Coast Buses route numbered something like 144

I don't think a new route needs to be created exactly, maybe just reroute the 113 via Pinkie Road and Macbeth Moir Road and the do the N113 route via Wallyford covering Fa'side Avenue and Masons Way.

All areas covered and then you've got no need for the 44 beyond Edinburgh.

Problem with that though is that you're removing 5 buses an hour on that corridor and replacing it with 2 that already run, and run busy. The 44 cannot simply be cut entirely.

The route from Edinburgh City Centre to Wallyford as it runs currently is very well subscribed, it's just plagued with poor reliability as a result of the length of the route.

If any cuts were to be made, the max I'd say is feasible would a reduction to every 15 minutes between city centre and Wallyford.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I feel that the 44 could be extended to Seafield it could either run along the same route then turn left past Eastfield, Joppa and Portobello up Seafield Road East and Seafield Road terminating at the same stop as the 1.

I can only see the above happening once the new houses have been built along Seafield Road East.

The Wallyford to Edinburgh section could be served by a new East Coast Buses route numbered something like 144.

It’s impossible at the moment but not necessarily in the future. Musselburgh is full though which is a problem that wouldn’t go away. So unless the 139/140/141 went back to Lothian as the 39/40/41 this idea is fairly unlikely to ever happen, or if enough drivers were sourced then a bigger use of Marine is unavoidable.

The most simple solution would be to give the Seton Sands corridor to ECB as a new route and reroute the 26 after Pinkie Road along the 44’s route to Wallyford/Whitecraig in my opinion. The Caravan Park could benefit from a faster bus to town, especially when it’s busy in the summer months. Haymarket to Seton Sands limited stop via Milton Road just like the others. Call it a 129. This would solve the excessive amount of buses along the Prestonpans-Seton Sands corridor if it was every 15 minutes. If you put the 113, 124 and 129 together you should be able to have a fast bus every 7-8 minutes from Musselburgh to Edinburgh. The X26 removed with the 129 serving Port Seton and presumably Blindwells in the peaks while still serving the Caravan Park.

You’d need an N129 to replace the N26 as well. So I’d suggest adding in an N19 from Granton to Eastfield to part replace the N26, giving Lochend a night bus again with this serving Craigentinny Avenue instead of Wakefield Avenue. In turn scrapping the N14. The N19 could be hourly and when combined with the N37 offers a half hourly service along Crewe Road South. Both the 129 and N129 would serve Pinkie Road.

The 4 would need to go up to every 15 minutes to plug the gaps left by the 44’s removal, as would the 34. It would also need to serve Willowbrae Road as those stops would otherwise be unserved. Only one set of stops on Northfield Broadway is effectively unserved though as the first set of stops are so close to the stops on Willowbrae Road anyway. Those at Northfield Square might be a bit annoyed though.

I’d then be looking at turning the 44 into an X44 running Balerno to Waterloo Place via West Approach Road. All stops Balerno to Slateford Station then only stopping at Shandon Place then Fountainpark and then all recognised stops (same as X27/X28) after that. This route could probably suffice as every 15 minutes.

All of a sudden this idea is a lot of changes just to remove the 44. I’m not against this plan, but for the travelling public it’s pretty complex.

I don't think a new route needs to be created exactly, maybe just reroute the 113 via Pinkie Road and Macbeth Moir Road and the do the N113 route via Wallyford covering Fa'side Avenue and Masons Way.

All areas covered and then you've got no need for the 44 beyond Edinburgh.

That would mean replacing an every 10 minutes service with one that is half hourly? Good idea in terms of routing, but inadequate on all other counts.