Lothian group (Network/Route Speculation)

[TheEastCoaster]

Judging by the talks of the 36 moving to Central and the 1 getting the double decker treatment, what are folks expectations on the next service change?

 

[stevenedin]

Heard somewhere that the X27/8 are now going to be limited stop in Sighthill, may be this or some route changes. Also speculation about a Livingston Village service reroute, might be the X27.

It would be better to operate all stops up to Burtons Biscuits then Sighthill Fire Station, Parkhead Post Office, Chesser Avenue, Westfield Sainsbury's, Fountainpark, The Exchange then Princes Street stops as now.

 

[LothianLover88]

Judging by the talks of the 36 moving to Central and the 1 getting the double decker treatment, what are folks expectations on the next service change?

Don't forget the 17/18 moving partly to Central & the 2 apparently moving to Longstone. But honestly, I have no idea. Expecting changes for West Lothian.

 

[stevenedin]

Don't forget the 17/18 moving partly to Central & the 2 apparently moving to Longstone. But honestly, I have no idea. Expecting changes for West Lothian.

If this happens then some of the early 600s will no doubt move as well since they have luggage racks?

 

[LothianLover88]

If this happens then some of the early 600s will no doubt move as well since they have luggage racks?

Not sure but it's confirmed apparently. Most likely they will, maybe 601-605 or something.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Surely for the 18 to work it has to involve interworking with other routes? Whether that be the 17, 100, or something else, I don't know. I don't think any vehicles will move.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

It would be better to operate all stops up to Burtons Biscuits then Sighthill Fire Station, Parkhead Post Office, Chesser Avenue, Westfield Sainsbury's, Fountainpark, The Exchange then Princes Street stops as now.

Honestly i would leave it as it is, it dosen't take up that much more time at this point considering it's a much faster route into town compared to the 25 or 34 anyway.

Don't forget the 17/18 moving partly to Central & the 2 apparently moving to Longstone. But honestly, I have no idea. Expecting changes for West Lothian.

Is this because of the Airlink drivers learning the route? i wonder what that's all about, hopefully West Lothian will see some great changes.

Surely for the 18 to work it has to involve interworking with other routes? Whether that be the 17, 100, or something else, I don't know. I don't think any vehicles will move.

Obviously it can only interwork at the Airport, but for the 18 how will the evening and morning runs work if they aren't starting/finishing from Longstone?

 

[stevenedin]

I've just had a thought that if they do take away the X27 and X28 from Sighthill/Broomhouse/Parkhead then they could swap the 30 and 33 around so that the 33 does the 30 route from Saughton Mains to Clovenstone and the 30 does the 33 route to Wesburn.

This would resolve the quick bus loss issue. Also the 22 and 33 could be operated using eVoRas and the 30 goes double decker via the A1 slip road to Queen Margaret University.

 

[LothianLover88]

This would resolve the quick bus loss issue. Also the 22 and 33 could be operated using eVoRas and the 30 goes double decker via the A1 slip road to Queen Margaret University.

I mean.. I've seen the 33 busy a lot of the time. Not sure about the 22 though.

 

[stevenedin]

I mean.. I've seen the 33 busy a lot of the time. Not sure about the 22 though.

It just depends if it is busier than the 30 or not. I'm guessing that the 22 could cope with eVoRas anyway.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

It just depends if it is busier than the 30 or not. I'm guessing that the 22 could cope with eVoRas anyway.

Not without a frequency increase it couldn’t. It’s still full during the peaks.

 

[mb88]

It would be better to operate all stops up to Burtons Biscuits then Sighthill Fire Station, Parkhead Post Office, Chesser Avenue, Westfield Sainsbury's, Fountainpark, The Exchange then Princes Street stops as now.

The X27/X28 as a general rule are usually ok in terms of timekeeping up until Burtons, but can end up delayed due to the number of people getting on at the stops along Calder Road. They also only get 10 minutes recovery time at Regent Road which isn’t a lot for a route 2 hours plus long. They either need to revert back to the original stopping arrangement and provide an alternative quicker service into the city centre for the stops in between, or increase the running time between Burton’s and Saughton Mains.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The X27/X28 as a general rule are usually ok in terms of timekeeping up until Burtons, but can end up delayed due to the number of people getting on at the stops along Calder Road. They also only get 10 minutes recovery time at Regent Road which isn’t a lot for a route 2 hours plus long. They either need to revert back to the original stopping arrangement and provide an alternative quicker service into the city centre for the stops in between, or increase the running time between Burton’s and Saughton Mains.

You could make a fair argument for the limited stops and also adding a 14th bus.

 

[stevenedin]

The X27/X28 as a general rule are usually ok in terms of timekeeping up until Burtons, but can end up delayed due to the number of people getting on at the stops along Calder Road. They also only get 10 minutes recovery time at Regent Road which isn’t a lot for a route 2 hours plus long. They either need to revert back to the original stopping arrangement and provide an alternative quicker service into the city centre for the stops in between, or increase the running time between Burton’s and Saughton Mains.

To be honest they could easily take out at least 2 stops without causing too much disruption. The one before Sighthill Fire Station and the Broomhouse Road stop as the other stops are within a short walk.

Also I question whether or not the Saughton Rose Garden stop is required as it causes a lot of delays but with the withdrawal of the McGill's service X22 from Gorgie I can see a requirement for this stop for those that lost their service. It depends on if it is used or not.

Maybe a stopping pattern of Burtons Biscuits, Sighthill Fire Station (for college and university), Parkhead Post Office/Broomhouse Crescent, Saughton Mains Avenue (instead of Saughton Mains stop), Chesser Avenue, Westfield Sainsbury's, Fountainpark, Morrison Crescent, The Exchange then all current stops.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

To be honest they could easily take out at least 2 stops without causing too much disruption. The one before Sighthill Fire Station and the Broomhouse Road stop as the other stops are within a short walk.

Also I question whether or not the Saughton Rose Garden stop is required as it causes a lot of delays but with the withdrawal of the McGill's service X22 from Gorgie I can see a requirement for this stop for those that lost their service. It depends on if it is used or not.

Could they not change the "Gorgie" stop to Saughton Park? it's not that much further and probably less likely to cause delays, i don't think its underused personally.

Maybe a stopping pattern of Burtons Biscuits, Sighthill Fire Station (for college and university), Parkhead Post Office/Broomhouse Crescent, Saughton Mains Avenue (instead of Saughton Mains stop), Chesser Avenue, Westfield Sainsbury's, Fountainpark, Morrison Crescent, The Exchange then all current stops.

Honestly, as long as it dosen't completly cut off Sighthill, this could work.

 

[CSB0241]

I mean.. I've seen the 33 busy a lot of the time. Not sure about the 22 though.

It just depends if it is busier than the 30 or not. I'm guessing that the 22 could cope with eVoRas anyway.

I think off peak the 22 would do fine with Evoras. A couple extra buses would maybe be needed at peak times though. The 33 would definitely not work with Evorad unless it was at the absolute least every 15 minutes, verging on every 12.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I think off peak the 22 would do fine with Evoras. A couple extra buses would maybe be needed at peak times though. The 33 would definitely not work with Evorad unless it was at the absolute least every 15 minutes, verging on every 12.

I don't think even off peak would be OK for the 22. It fills inconsistently being a locally used route as well as a route into the city.

 

[overthewater]

This will be another slow progress but what I would liked to see at the next service changes are as follows:

New 71/A: Every30mins Livingston - Livingston Village or Kirkton - Blackburn - Whitburn Heartlands, with the hopes to take on the No23 contract thus extend to Harthill and then once an hour going to shotts or Blackridge ( like the old Davidson 501 service )

Revised No72: Revised to operate every 30mins: Between Kirkliston and Livingston via Fast link. The service will then interwork with No73:

Revised No73: Revised to operated every 30min Livingston - St Johns Hospital - Deans or Houstoun Road - Bathgate - Armadale

Revised No74: Extend to operate up to UPHall Via Uphall station, Pumpherston and Howden, instead of Bathgate. Still Hourly.

NEW 75: Hourly. Fauldhouse - Whitburn - East Whitburn - Bathgate - Wester inch - Blackburn - Eilburn - Livingston - Pumpherston - Uphall.

No74 and 75: would provide 30mins service between Uphall and Livingston.

I would say this revised network should only need 2-3 extra buses. What would that leave to be done to complete the network?

* Then you would only need to find drivers so you can use the 4 spare Edinburgh peak buses for X27/X28 to make that every 15mins.
* 2 more buses to make the 74 every 30mins on the Fauldhouse section.
* 1 -2 more buses to extend either 74 or 75 to Edinburgh Gyle.
* 1 extra bus get the 74 out of Dedridge west

Really were looking 2 - 4 buses at next service change, then another 4 so, I would think you could get away with 8 to really give the network a flight chance.

 

[SoloSR334022]

Revised No74: Extend to operate up to UPHall Via Uphall station, Pumpherston and Howden, instead of Bathgate. Still Hourly.

NEW 75: Hourly. Fauldhouse - Whitburn - East Whitburn - Bathgate - Wester inch - Blackburn - Eilburn - Livingston - Pumpherston - Uphall.

No74 and 75: would provide 30mins service between Uphall and Livingston.

Where in Uphall would they turn? It would be easier just sending them to Broxburn.

 

[overthewater]

It can turn around on Loaninghall road at the roundabout. It could go to Strathbrock Partnership Centre or it could got into Cardorss, remember they used to have direct bus to Livingston many moons ago, so there plenty of places to choice from.

 

[jb66]

It can turn around on Loaninghall road at the roundabout. It could go to Strathbrock Partnership Centre or it could got into Cardorss, remember they used to have direct bus to Livingston many moons ago, so there plenty of places to choice from.

Uphall already would have 72, 31 and 902 to livingston and all would be much quicker.

Residents of Pumpherston and uphall station would not have a link to broxburn with this proposal.

I think the 74 would have to terminate at broxburn

 

[overthewater]

Uphall already would have 72, 31 and 902 to livingston and all would be much quicker.

That a mute point, For a good while uphall and Broxburn had 6ph First buses to Livingston and council 31 service. The was the norm

Residents of Pumpherston and uphall station would not have a link to broxburn with this proposal.

I think the 74 would have to terminate at broxburn

Do they really need one? Maybe if you took the 74 out of Delridge west it might free up more time to be extended to broxburn far end.

Lothian has problem, it give routes FAR too much Layover time 15mins is far too much times to waste with you have limited resources..

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Lothian has problem, it give routes FAR too much Layover time 15mins is far too much times to waste with you have limited resources..

I disagree with this. Many of these routes can get stuck in traffic. Given resources are tight, it would be nonsensical if buses were constantly having to be turned early due to late running as there’s insufficient layover time. When you have such infrequent services in places, early turning is very difficult. Often the delays have to be severe, eg 30+ minutes late.

 

[mb88]

Lothian has problem, it give routes FAR too much Layover time 15mins is far too much times to waste with you have limited resources..

Absolute nonsense. One of the major factors in the unreliability of some routes is the lack of layover meaning delays encountered on one journey impact upon the next and so on. The current timetable allows 10 minutes at Regent Road and 8 minutes at Bathgate Morrisons during the day. Nowhere near enough for a route over 2 hours long.

 

[Metal Mickey]

Layover time of 15 minutes or more is absolutely essential on long routes like the 26, 44 and buses coming from East and West Lothian.

 

[overthewater]

I see what the problem is, everything on about the X18 and X27 which is fair enough but for 72 in Fauldhouse and Whichburgh, they don't need 15mins layovers?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

but for 72 in Fauldhouse and Whichburgh, they don't need 15mins layovers?

Oh yes they do. Check how often they run late at the moment. That’s why Kirkliston has been dropped.

 

[roadierway77]

Some new ideas for realistic West Lothian service changes based on the upcoming changes.

72 | Fauldhouse - Longridge - Whitburn - Blackburn - Eliburn - St John's - Livingston - St John's - Pumpherston - Uphall - Broxburn - Winchburgh
Every 30 minutes, 8 vehicles required.

I imagine demand will increase in the future for the 72 to operate every 30 minutes with two additional vehicles required. The service will be additionally extended in the west to Fauldhouse railway station.

73 | Livingston - Livingston Village - Blackburn - Wester Inch - Bathgate - Lower Bathville - Armadale
Every 60 minutes, 2 vehicles required.

The 73 will be re-routed again, operating direct from Livingston Village to Blackburn and then Bathgate via Wester Inch, a similar route to the former McGill's/First 21.

74 | Fauldhouse - Stoneyburn - Loganlea - Addiewell - West Calder - Dedridge West - Livingston
Every 30 minutes, 4 vehicles required.

Truncated to Livingston Bus Terminal but extended in the west to Fauldhouse railway station.

75 | Blackridge - Armadale - Bathgate - Boghall - Deans South - St Johns - Livingston - Dedridge East - Livingston South Stn
Every 60 minutes, 3 vehicles required.

New service, providing a faster link from Armadale and Bathgate to Livingston while also providing service to Livingston South, Dedridge East and Blackridge. Could potentially be increased in frequency to every 30 minutes between Livingston Centre and Armadale with an additional two vehicles.

This would be an increase in vehicle requirement from 12 to 17 for the local services.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Some new ideas for realistic West Lothian service changes based on the upcoming changes.

72 | Fauldhouse - Longridge - Whitburn - Blackburn - Eliburn - St John's - Livingston - St John's - Pumpherston - Uphall - Broxburn - Winchburgh
Every 30 minutes, 8 vehicles required.

I imagine demand will increase in the future for the 72 to operate every 30 minutes with two additional vehicles required. The service will be additionally extended in the west to Fauldhouse railway station.

73 | Livingston - Livingston Village - Blackburn - Wester Inch - Bathgate - Lower Bathville - Armadale
Every 60 minutes, 2 vehicles required.

The 73 will be re-routed again, operating direct from Livingston Village to Blackburn and then Bathgate via Wester Inch, a similar route to the former McGill's/First 21.

74 | Fauldhouse - Stoneyburn - Loganlea - Addiewell - West Calder - Dedridge West - Livingston
Every 30 minutes, 4 vehicles required.

Truncated to Livingston Bus Terminal but extended in the west to Fauldhouse railway station.

75 | Blackridge - Armadale - Bathgate - Boghall - Deans South - St Johns - Livingston - Dedridge East - Livingston South Stn
Every 60 minutes, 3 vehicles required.

New service, providing a faster link from Armadale and Bathgate to Livingston while also providing service to Livingston South, Dedridge East and Blackridge. Could potentially be increased in frequency to every 30 minutes between Livingston Centre and Armadale with an additional two vehicles.

This would be an increase in vehicle requirement from 12 to 17 for the local services.

It all works, but one flaw I can see is that 74 doesn’t link St John’s and the western A71 communities.

I can’t see Lothian ever running down to the train station again. Not after the bridge was hit twice. I also question whether there’s demand towards Livingston South.

Personally I would just curtail the 73 to Bathgate and merge 74/75 into one through route half hourly.

What I’ve just suggested above seems the likely next step, but with the 74 running to Armadale rather than Blackridge.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

It all works, but one flaw I can see is that 74 doesn’t link St John’s and the western A71 communities.

I can’t see Lothian ever running down to the train station again. Not after the bridge was hit twice. I also question whether there’s demand towards Livingston South.

Personally I would just curtail the 73 to Bathgate and merge 74/75 into one through route half hourly.

What I’ve just suggested above seems the likely next step, but with the 74 running to Armadale rather than Blackridge.

I doubt at this point Lothian will return to Blackridge, they could of with the 73 but they chose not to.

Honestly the long routes are a good way to cut down on services without having too many spread out to overcomplicate the network, West Lothian has been changed more times than East Lothian or Midlothian for that matter which is a shame for long time residents who can't get used to a bus for more than a couple years.

But the other problem lies with reliability, the 72 being an almost 2 hour long route (with traffic added) is prone to delays constantly, which is why i thought that route would be better split at Livingston, i can understand why they cut the 72 to Winchburgh to save time doing loops in Kirkliston, but will that and an added frequency be enough?

This is also my worry with the new 74 route, i get why they did it connecting one end of Livingston to another, but it feels so bulky, but this is just only the second step to a long awaited network change, heres hope it pays off.