London to Westbury

[tagzy]

Ok, the topic title sounds confusing. Basically I want to travel from London to Wiltshire (my local town has no train station). Two nearby railway stations are Pewsey and Westbury. To travel to Pewsey, changing at Westbury, costs £14.50. However, a ticket direct to Westbury on THE SAME TRAIN costs £22.00

If I bought the Pewsey ticket, would I be allowed to get off at Westbury? (Don't know why I'm asking I think I know the answer :roll

Cheers.

 

[dzug2]

Depends on the type of ticket but those prices look like advance singles so no you can't get off short of your destination.

 

[Mike395]

Are you travelling on an Advance ticket, with a reservation on the train between London and Pewsey/Westbury? If so, then yes your assumption is correct (silly really isnt it?!). Otherwise, you should be OK

 

[tagzy]

Here is exactly what I'm looking at;

Thanks for your help guys.

 

[Flamingo]

As far as I can see, they are both Advance tickets, therefore they are only valid for the journey booked. No break of journey allowed.

If you were stopped leaving Westbury station, you could be charged for a new Anytime Single Paddington - Westbury ticket.

 

[dzug2]

Well given that you will be hanging about Westbury for half an hour I'm sure there will be the opportunity to leave the station

oops no I didn't say that.

 

[SS4]

Of course using station facilities is not breaking your journey...

 

[Flamingo]

Westbury station is "enclosed", there are no facilities outside the barriers.

 

[tagzy]

On a Sunday/bank holiday as well. I can't imagine that someone would be so soulless to prevent you from leaving and I reckon the barriers (if any) will be open anyway.

 

[Lampshade]

You may need to "go outside for a cigarette" at Westbury, which you are allowed to do while waiting for your connection. Problem solved.

 

[MikeWh]

Westbury station is "enclosed", there are no facilities outside the barriers.

I can think of a very simple question that will usually be answered along the lines of "go outside and along the wall a bit".

 

[tagzy]

I have got off early before on an advance ticket. I got off at Watford High St when I was supposed to go to Watford Junction. Barrier guy couldn't give less of a s***

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I can think of a very simple question that will usually be answered along the lines of "go outside and along the wall a bit".

I suppose there's some natural justice at work here - smokers may be able to, er, travel cheaper, but non-smokers will live longer! (alledgedly).

I have got off early before on an advance ticket. I got off at Watford High St when I was supposed to go to Watford Junction. Barrier guy couldn't give less of a s***

Maybe. But please don't assume that the same outcome will await you, or every other traveller, on each occassion that they are unable to produce a valid ticket. I'm aware of several folk who have taken a chance and have lost, always regretting the stress, fear, and cost of legal proceedings and of a Criminal Record, all for a quick few pounds (or even pence) which they'd hoped they'd 'saved'. Even incurring legal costs in the thousands just to avoid that Criminal Record.
And remember too, that the TOCs are wise enough to make random checks at unlikely times and at unlikely places, because you can be sure that they too know where the opportunities to 'get away with it' are.

I and others who've replied on this thread have had several cases where passengers have been caught with relatively minor ticketing irregularities but face prosecution and penalties under very severe (and ancient!) laws.
You may well save yourself some money by using the cheaper ticket that you've found, and will probably 'get away with it'; you may even feel that in doing so illustrates how UK rail ticketing is in a mess. But please be aware that you do so entirely at your own risk. It is a Criminal Offence.

 

[SS4]

I have got off early before on an advance ticket. I got off at Watford High St when I was supposed to go to Watford Junction. Barrier guy couldn't give less of a s***

A lot of people have, just be aware that just because you got away with it doesn't mean it's acceptable.

 

[Flamingo]

Risk it if you want, but I KNOW that there are new ATE's and RPI's in that area, and that they get overtime for Sundays / BH's.

And the RPI's have heard it all before.

 

[tagzy]

Damn. If I spoke to a human about the ticketing, do you think they would give me the lower price?

 

[wintonian]

A couple of people approached the ticket office at Southampton Airport yesterday with a Megatrain ticket valid from Southampton Central for a train in 45/ 50 min time, they were advised to by singles to Southampton Central and actually travel there to pick up the train.

If the guard caught them boarding at the airport then quite a few SWT guards would correctly charge for a new ticket.

I don't know how strict FGW guards are in this situation but I wouldn't risk it.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Westbury isn't an appropriate destination routeing point for a Paddington to Pewsey journey, as it fails the fares check. Does the fact that this fare is offered mean that TOCs may make advance fares available for journeys that aren't on permitted routes? I've often wondered about that (e.g. the "+VWC & CONNECTNS" advances for Banbury to Leamington Spa, to take it to an extreme), but I thought the booking engines applied the routeing guide regardless. But maybe they don't. Perhaps it is something to do with going via Westbury being the fastest journey at certain times of the day?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If I spoke to a human about the ticketing, do you think they would give me the lower price?

Maybe.
But if you followed the posts by flamingo, wintonian, indigo2 and myself, you will appreciate that a ticket at "the lower price" is not actually valid - and all the risks and consequences we've outlined follow from that - whether its the risk of smoking or the risks of travelling with an invalid ticket!

 

[tagzy]

I meant would they give me the lower price for a train straight to Westbury?

 

[dzug2]

As you are travelling at a weekend I wonder if the odd routing is engineering work related?

 

[wintonian]

I meant would they give me the lower price for a train straight to Westbury?

The system doesn’t work like that if a fare doesn’t exist or has sold out (in the case of advance tickets) then it physically can't be sold.

 

[yorkie]

If you were stopped leaving Westbury station, you could be charged for a new Anytime Single Paddington - Westbury ticket.

If the guard caught them boarding at the airport then quite a few SWT guards would correctly charge for a new ticket.

I'm not so sure. As I mentioned on this post in the Megatrain topic as far as I can determine the instructions for staff for break of journey when not entitled to are as follows:

"Charge the difference between the fare paid and
the appropriate Single fare for the overall journey
being made that allows break of journey."

That's not the same as "Charge for a new full Single fare for the journey being made" and is likely to be significantly different in this case (it was only £1 difference in the Megatrain case).

My source for the above quote is the East Coast revenue manual. However although this doesn't speak for FGW, East Coast appear to have a policy of letting customers out of stations without charge, as we found out when Professor Evans' unpaid fare notice issued at Durham station in September 2010 was cancelled (I also was informed, via PM, by EC gateline staff who expressed surprised that the Professor was issued the UPFN, as they informed me they were instructed to let people out in such circumstances, but with a warning that if they tried to resume their journey they'd not be able to resume on that ticket).

(We also know that LU will let people out at intermediate stations on cross-London transfers, but the transfer is considered expired once out of the system and a new ticket would need to be bought to resume on LU. This obviously does not speak for FGW though).

Finally, lying to staff is not advised or condoned.

 

[sonic2009]

As you are travelling at a weekend I wonder if the odd routing is engineering work related?

It looks like the tickets are being routed due to the line being shut between Reading and Newbury/Bedwyn until around 12pm on Sundays currently. Check this timetable here.

London - Newbury/Pewsey/Castle Cary

The First train direct from London Paddington to Pewsey on Sundays is 1757. Journey before are on the 0930 and 1230 via Swindon, with a bus replacement service to Pewsey. The last bus from Swindon being at 1344. This could explain the routing via Westbury

 

[island]

Risk it if you want, but I KNOW that there are new ATE's and RPI's in that area, and that they get overtime for Sundays / BH's.

And the RPI's have heard it all before.

ATE? Additional ticket examiner?

 

[cuccir]

The rerouteing due to works would also explain the lower price for going 'further' as you would normally pass through Pewsey to get to Westbury.

One response to this sort of situation can be to buy a ticket that will get you out of Westbury eg a Frome to Westbury single (don't start messing about with any discounts to which you are not entitled though!). You'd still be breaking the T&Cs of your original ticket, however.

 

[Flamingo]

ATE? Additional ticket examiner?

Not sure, to be honest!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not so sure. As I mentioned on this post in the Megatrain topic as far as I can determine the instructions for staff for break of journey when not entitled to are as follows:

"Charge the difference between the fare paid and
the appropriate Single fare for the overall journey
being made that allows break of journey."

That's not the same as "Charge for a new full Single fare for the journey being made" and is likely to be significantly different in this case (it was only £1 difference in the Megatrain case).

My source for the above quote is the East Coast revenue manual. However although this doesn't speak for FGW, East Coast appear to have a policy of letting customers out of stations without charge, as we found out when Professor Evans' unpaid fare notice issued at Durham station in September 2010 was cancelled (I also was informed, via PM, by EC gateline staff who expressed surprised that the Professor was issued the UPFN, as they informed me they were instructed to let people out in such circumstances, but with a warning that if they tried to resume their journey they'd not be able to resume on that ticket).

(We also know that LU will let people out at intermediate stations on cross-London transfers, but the transfer is considered expired once out of the system and a new ticket would need to be bought to resume on LU. This obviously does not speak for FGW though).

Finally, lying to staff is not advised or condoned.

Re-reading the T&C that FGW publish online for Advance tickets, the relevant bit appears to be
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=289

You may not break and resume your journey at an intermediate station except to change to/from appropriate connecting trains where these are shown on your ticket(s).

Whether this means that the ticket is not good for a break of journey, and can't be used to continue the journey (which would not matter to the OP), or whether attempting to leave the station would be considered "changing the journey (I think it would) which would be covered by:

You can make changes to your travel plans up until the departure time shown on your ticket. Changes may only be made if the origin and destination stations stay the same.
For each change, you may have to pay an excess charge, plus a fee of £10 per single ticket. You will need to present your original ticket when you request your change and you must travel on First Great Western trains only, if stated on your ticket

. Obviously, if leaving, then the destination station would not be the same, and you would be changing the journey AFTER the journey had started, so the bit covered by excess charge plus £10 would not apply.

How many angels were on that pin?

 

[richw]

Flamingo from a legal point of view the following

You may not break and resume your journey at an intermediate station

the word "and" signifys you may break, but not then resume your journey. There is nothing that states you may not end early, just that you cant break and then resume on the same ticket!

 

[Flamingo]

Ending early would definitely be a change of travel plan, and it also says

Changes may only be made if the origin and destination stations stay the same.

 

[richw]

ok i was just going by your quotes in post 27,
Also is there anywhere that defines the definition of Break of journey? is it getting off the train and reboarding the next service, or just when you leave the station facilities?

I know the answers but unsure if they are included in the T & Cs, for less knowledgable travellers. Such information surely should be available as to what a break in journey means.