London Terminals - has something changed?

[ssamara]

What is it with King's Cross and their incorrect posters? It's not the first time.

I assume the poster wasn't sent to the station to display so there's someone there printing their own and not understanding the rules.

It's not just the posters either, it was being announced over the tannoy last week.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks, I did post slightly tongue-in-cheek!

I was meeting a friend this morning and had half an hour to spare so I didn’t go out of my way.

I think it’s time to get London Travelwatch and MPs involved.

 

[rebmcr]

I don't think this current situation would be any better for the poor guys on the gateline...

Quite. The problem has only been shifted from "random folk at other mainline terminuses served by LU" to "regular folk at one single LU station" — not solved!

 

[Haywain]

Could it have been a Norwich to London Waterloo† (rather than to London Terminals)?

It could well have been, it was over 15 years ago.

An attempt to sell such a ticket would result in issuing a ticket to London Terminals only. For the cross London marker to be set the ticket must go through one and beyond another London Terminals station. This was certainly the case more than 15 years ago, as it is now.

 

[Hadders]

The ticket could’ve been issued to Zone U12 London.

 

[Haywain]

The ticket could’ve been issued to Zone U12 London.

Indeed, but then it wouldn't have been a ticket to London Terminals as stated earlier in the thread.

 

[jon0844]

It's not just the posters either, it was being announced over the tannoy last week.

And today from what I've heard. At King's Cross St Pancras.

 

[Hadders]

And today from what I've heard. At King's Cross St Pancras.

I didn’t hear it but the whole thing is a disgraceful behaviour from LU/TfL.

I really think LU/TfL want to remove the inter-availability be stealth. People on here are generally savvy enough to assert our rights, but how many normal passengers will just pay up.

 

[sheff1]

At what point does incorrect information become a lie?

I would say it's more the difference between a misunderstanding/mistake and intentionally misleading. I don't know which one this is at this stage.

According to earlier posts, the misunderstanding/mistake was brought to Tfl/LU's attention long enough ago for them to have removed the incorrect posters and stopped the incorrect announcements by now. If that is correct, the fact that they have not done so makes it abundantly clear that they are being intentionally misleading or, if you prefer, lying.

No doubt the usual mantra of "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" will now be put forward by those who are always keen to excuse any malpractice by rail service providers.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

According to earlier posts, the misunderstanding/mistake was brought to Tfl/LU's attention long enough ago for them to have removed the incorrect posters and stopped the incorrect announcements by now. If that is correct, the fact that they have not done so makes it abundantly clear that they are being intentionally misleading or, if you prefer, lying.

No doubt the usual mantra of "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" will now be put forward by those who are always keen to excuse any malpractice by rail service providers.

To be honest, it could be either, or both. But at this point, the law doesn't care which it is - and misleading people into believing they have to pay extra to exercise contractual rights they already have is a serious offence.

 

[jon0844]

I didn’t hear it but the whole thing is a disgraceful behaviour from LU/TfL.

I really think LU/TfL want to remove the inter-availability be stealth. People on here are generally savvy enough to assert our rights, but how many normal passengers will just pay up.

A lot of people won't sit in first class even when it's declassified. Many will be too scared to split tickets. I have no doubt many will not want the hassle with a London Terminals ticket and will either stop using the tube with one, or pay extra for a Z1 ticket or even a Travelcard.

 

[Hadders]

A lot of people won't sit in first class even when it's declassified. Many will be too scared to split tickets. I have no doubt many will not want the hassle with a London Terminals ticket and will either stop using the tube with one, or pay extra for a Z1 ticket or even a Travelcard.

Absolutely right. I was in London yesterday with a friend, we went our separate ways at St Pancras with my friend travelling to Bedford on Thameslink. Despite my assurance about the rear 1st class compartment being declassified they sat in standard on an ironing board ‘just in case’.

The problem with what LU/TfL are up to is that people will end up parting with serious amounts of money when they don’t need to.

An annual season ticket to Zones 1-6 (which LU/TfL would like someone travelling from Stevenage to Moorgate to purchase) costs over £1,000 more than the one to London Terminals.

 

[Haywain]

Despite my assurance about the rear 1st class compartment being declassified they sat in standard on an ironing board

As opposed to sitting in first on an identical ironing board. The only difference is an antimacassar, a table and a charging socket. And these days the first section tends to be full when there are loads of seats in the adjacent standard section.

Anyway, thread drift....

 

[Bletchleyite]

As opposed to sitting in first on an identical ironing board. The only difference is an antimacassar, a table and a charging socket. And these days the first section tends to be full when there are loads of seats in the adjacent standard section.

Anyway, thread drift....

In Thameslink the seats in 1st are different and much nicer than the Standard ones, if still a bit hard.

 

[Haywain]

In Thameslink the seats in 1st are different and much nicer than the Standard ones, if still a bit hard.

You must be getting a better class of Thameslink train than the ones I travel on, such as two of them yesterday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You must be getting a better class of Thameslink train than the ones I travel on, such as two of them yesterday.

Class 700 has different seats in 1st than Standard - Google it!

 

[Haywain]

Class 700 has different seats in 1st than Standard - Google it!

I trust the evidence of my own eyes (and my backside).

 

[Hadders]

You must be getting a better class of Thameslink train than the ones I travel on, such as two of them yesterday.

Are you sure you’re not confusing the 387s (green ironing board seats - identical in 1st and standard) with the 700s (awful blue ironing boards in standard, much better seats and proper tables in 1st)

 

[OwenB]

The Class 700 first class seats are definitely slightly better, I tend to get the rear first class on my way into work in the mornings (5.55 or 6.07 HAT-KGX).

 

[Haywain]

Are you sure you’re not confusing the 387s (green ironing board seats - identical in 1st and standard) with the 700s (awful blue ironing boards in standard, much better seats and proper tables in 1st)

I know full well what I'm travelling on, and on the MML side we don't get a choice. The only difference I can discern is slightly more width due to the armrests.

 

[jon0844]

Your eyes must be deceiving you as the seats are definitely different in first class on a 700. With the additional room and power sockets I nearly always sit there.

 

[OwenB]

Tweet from @TfL: Hi, London Terminals tickets are rejected by the gates at King’s Cross St Pancras. A member of station staff needs to check the ticket visually and will then open the gates to permit onward travel to Old Street or Moorgate. I hope this answers your question, Tariq

 

[greyman42]

I travelled from York to Kings Cross yesterday on a Super off Peak Return. I then attempted to travel on to Moorgate via the Underground. My ticket would not open the barrier so I asked the gateline staff who informed me that the ticket was not valid to Moorgate.

 

[Hadders]

I travelled from York to Kings Cross yesterday on a Super off Peak Return. I then attempted to travel on to Moorgate via the Underground. My ticket would not open the barrier so I asked the gateline staff who informed me that the ticket was not valid to Moorgate.

If the ticket was issued to ‘London Terminals’ then it is valid on the Underground to Moorgate and the barrier staff were wrong.

If it was issued to Kings Crossnthen it isn’t valid to Moorgate.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If the ticket was issued to ‘London Terminals’ then it is valid on the Underground to Moorgate and the barrier staff were wrong.

If it was issued to Kings Crossnthen it isn’t valid to Moorgate.

The Super Off-Peak Return fare from York to London is issued to London Terminals. London Kings Cross is only used for the Advance ticket version of that journey.

 

[plcd1]

An interesting but sad debate. There has been an issue with passengers using London Terminals tickets to invalid tube stn destinations in Zone 1 since the 1980s when gates were brought into use. Some of it is ignorance on the part of passengers and some is people "trying it on". Having been involved in creating the original base date for the ticket gates and "journey segments" (remember them?) covering this interavailability I am astonished that LU staff, after three decades, are still moaning on about a very longstanding validity via Kings Cross. The rules should be well understood by everyone who works there and the general non availability of Lon Term elsewhere in Zone 1 should also be clear to staff. I don't think anyone is trying to remove the validity by stealth. What I do think is that local initiative has perhaps been allowed to go too far and someone hasn't properly assessed the wider implications.

If they're still struggling with this issue at KX after 30 years how on earth are people going to cope with Crossrail when it will almost certainly have to be the case that the ticket gates in the Liverpool St (and that includes Moorgate!) and Paddington Crossrail ticket halls will have to be set to accept London Terminals tickets? I don't know if TfL have specified something very clever for the upcoming Crossrail related ticket system pgrades to allow a finer tuned definition of "London Terminals" at specific locations to allow only valid tickets (e.g from west of Paddington) to enter and exit at Paddington CR but not allow a London Terminals from another route to work there. Anyway I'm drifting but I do think the KX issue needs reviewing again. I also think TfL and the TOCs need to do some focused and well drafted customer comms about tickets to London Terminals, into Zone 1 by Tube (or Crossrail or Thameslink) and across London. The basics are relatively straightforward but sadly there are twists and turns in a few places.

 

[jon0844]

I think they'll make it as awkward for people as possible so some will just pay more to avoid manual checks day in day out.

 

[Blackbat]

I think they'll make it as awkward for people as possible so some will just pay more to avoid manual checks day in day out.

It would be something like another ~£1200 on my annual season ticket! Anyway, I went through KGX to MOG for the first time today in over two weeks, using a brand new annual season ticket, and the LU barrier to the Northern Line opened for me. I've seen it said that only tickets issued since the first of the month have the issue (mine was issued 3 weeks ago before I went on holiday), but not sure if that's true.

 

[OwenB]

I'm largely fine with the gates being reprogrammed, so you have to be let through manually (even though ti is a pain in the arse), if it's the case that a lot of folk were using the tickets to other destinations. However, the gateline staff need to know the validity of the tickets; I am still seeing people tweeting GNRailUK about not being let through the gates even when explaining they are going to Moorgate.

Wouldn't an easier solution to be for tickets to go through at King's Cross and be rejected at gates at destination stations, except Old Street and Moorgate (where they would let you through)?

 

[Hadders]

I think they'll make it as awkward for people as possible so some will just pay more to avoid manual checks day in day out.

And then they’ll try to withdraw the inter-availability saying no-one uses it.

If that's not removal by stealth I don’t know what is.

Wouldn't an easier solution to be for tickets to go through at King's Cross and be rejected at gates at destination stations, except Old Street and Moorgate (where they would let you through)?

Of course it would but apparently it’s too difficult for LU/TfL.