London Terminals - has something changed?

[OwenB]

And on top of that I don't think many rail passengers knew themselves that they could use the tube. Only since May when people were advised by staff they could use the tube did many realise. Now many are likely thinking GTR was at fault for telling them it was okay as they'd likely assume LU staff know best.

There was a whiteboard at King's Cross this morning outlining that London Terminals tickets are not valid on the underground. See photo in tweet here: https://twitter.com/johnbfuller2017/status/1037968645501214720 - this was supposedly after GTR contacted TfL to reiterate that tickets were valid. What a mess.

 

[jon0844]

There was a whiteboard at King's Cross this morning outlining that London Terminals tickets are not valid on the underground. See photo in tweet here: https://twitter.com/johnbfuller2017/status/1037968645501214720 - this was supposedly after GTR contacted TfL to reiterate that tickets were valid. What a mess.

Madness! Given KGX had the signs before, I wonder if there's a manager there that is adamant they're not valid regardless of how many times s/he is told to the contrary.

 

[Haywain]

Madness! Given KGX had the signs before, I wonder if there's a manager there that is adamant they're not valid regardless of how many times s/he is told to the contrary.

Or simply someone who is not very good with the English language and means to say that they are not accepted by the barriers at the station.

 

[[.n]]

So to add to this it would appear that TFL also consider that Waterloo is not a London Terminal.

At the entrance of the Jubilee line (by the wide gate to enter and go down the escalators) there is a proper printed TFL poster saying that tickets to London Terminals are not valid at this station.

(Will try and get a photo if I remember)

 

[Haywain]

So to add to this it would appear that TFL also consider that Waterloo is not a London Terminal.

At the entrance of the Jubilee line (by the wide gate to enter and go down the escalators) there is a proper printed TFL poster saying that tickets to London Terminals are not valid at this station.

Waterloo underground station is not a London Terminals station. The mainline stations are, but they are not operated by TfL or London Underground.

 

[Mojo]

At the entrance of the Jubilee line (by the wide gate to enter and go down the escalators) there is a proper printed TFL poster saying that tickets to London Terminals are not valid at this station.

This is correct.

 

[[.n]]

Hmm, I suppose that's true, thinking about it, just the poster seems to be in the wrong place (i.e. I can't see a scenario in which you're "entering" the "London Terminal" being a useful place to tell you it wasn't wasn't valid to "arrive" there). I think the poster would be better saying "are not valid at London Waterloo Underground" rather than "this station"

In the past I've done Norwich-Waterloo, by changing at Stratford and taking the Jubilee line as it less hassle than going into Liverpool Street and on the tube, don't remember it being an issue going through the barriers (it was years ago though)

 

[Haywain]

In the past I've done Norwich-Waterloo, by changing at Stratford and taking the Jubilee line as it less hassle than going into Liverpool Street and on the tube, don't remember it being an issue going through the barriers (it was years ago though)

If you have done that with a ticket from Norwich to London Terminals, you have travelled on the underground without a valid ticket. There is no interavailability of Norwich to London Terminals tickets on the Jubilee line.

 

[717001]

Armed with the outward portion of a Gold Card discounted Off Peak Day Return between Stevenage and London Terminals I’ve just travelkedbbetween Kings Cross St Pancras and Moorgate on the Circle Line.

I used the gate line in the Tube ticket hall at Kings Cross St Pancras and my ticket was rejected by the barrier. I approached a gate line assistant, showed him my ticket and told him I was travelling to Moorgate. He let me through without fuss. I had a brief conversation with the assistant, he said they had been briefed about the situation and that they had been getting a fair bit of grief over the last few days.

No issue exiting at Moorgate as I used an unbarried exit. Didn’t intend to but I’m not overly familiar with Moorgate and took a wrong turn.

The gateline at the top of the escalators from the GN platforms at Moorgate continued accepting GN London Terminal season tickets ok last week.

(There is connectivity between GN platforms / Underground ones without passing through barriers - signs make it clear at what point a valid Underground tap/ticket is required.)

 

[jon0844]

The gateline at the top of the escalators from the GN platforms at Moorgate continued accepting GN London Terminal season tickets ok last week.

(There is connectivity between GN platforms / Underground ones without passing through barriers - signs make it clear at what point a valid Underground tap/ticket is required.)

If they stopped the gates from the GN platforms there really would be problems!

 

[swt_passenger]

The gateline at the top of the escalators from the GN platforms at Moorgate continued accepting GN London Terminal season tickets ok last week.

Moorgate is where the tickets are indisputably valid. Why should this be noteworthy? The problem is people attempting to enter at Kings Cross who attempt to leave everywhere but Moorgate...

 

[jon0844]

I assume the gates at the top of the escalators from the GN platforms work but if you cut through the side and enter the main station and exit they won't? It's to get those who have used the tube to get to Moorgate rather than the train.

 

[Failed Unit]

I had my ticket rejected a Moorgate this week, although I just assumed that it got corrupted - sure it was code 51.

Barrier let me through not problem,

Wonder if the key works, but considering how much it messes up fares I have stopped using it anyway as I dare not find out.

As others have said, lucky passengers travelling from Cambridge / Peterborough (and stations between) can change a Farringdon and not even get challenged. Not sure if it is quicker or not then changing at Finsbury Park however.

 

[bb21]

So to add to this it would appear that TFL also consider that Waterloo is not a London Terminal.

At the entrance of the Jubilee line (by the wide gate to enter and go down the escalators) there is a proper printed TFL poster saying that tickets to London Terminals are not valid at this station.

(Will try and get a photo if I remember)

Further validity at Waterloo is only through Waterloo East to London Bridge, not through LUL.

They have been accepting tickets during the Thameslink upgrade but this is now finished, hence the notice.

 

[bb21]

Hmm, I suppose that's true, thinking about it, just the poster seems to be in the wrong place (i.e. I can't see a scenario in which you're "entering" the "London Terminal" being a useful place to tell you it wasn't wasn't valid to "arrive" there). I think the poster would be better saying "are not valid at London Waterloo Underground" rather than "this station"

In the past I've done Norwich-Waterloo, by changing at Stratford and taking the Jubilee line as it less hassle than going into Liverpool Street and on the tube, don't remember it being an issue going through the barriers (it was years ago though)

You cannot pick and choose your terminal with a London Terminals ticket. Generally speaking they are not accepted on the Underground and you would have been liable for a Penalty Fare if you did so.

 

[jon0844]

You cannot pick and choose your terminal with a London Terminals ticket. Generally speaking they are not accepted on the Underground and you would have been liable for a Penalty Fare if you did so.

Clearly people have got onto the tube at a terminal station and then travelled on to another terminal station, prompting this clamp down that sadly now impacts everyone using tickets properly.

 

[Hadders]

Clearly people have got onto the tube at a terminal station and then travelled on to another terminal station, prompting this clamp down that sadly now impacts everyone using tickets properly.

In that case deal with passengers trying to exit where their tickets are invalid, having displayed suitable signage and trained staff.

 

[jon0844]

In that case deal with passengers trying to exit where their tickets are invalid, having displayed suitable signage and trained staff.

That is what they're trying to do, but staff are interpreting a rejected ticket as invalid. I can't see them returning to allowing them to operate the gates qnd and it should be for staff to look at the origin and know if it's valid from that.

It seems some passengers are now being let through but, like I was, being told they're only being allowed this time as a gesture of goodwill. Staff cannot be allowed to say this as it would be unfair for people to unnecessarily buy a Travelcard or Zone 1 ticket because they don't want to risk being fined next time.

 

[westv]

Clearly people have got onto the tube at a terminal station and then travelled on to another terminal station, prompting this clamp down that sadly now impacts everyone using tickets properly.

You could use that excuse to reject any ticket that didn't cover all zones.

 

[Hadders]

That is what they're trying to do, but staff are interpreting a rejected ticket as invalid. I can't see them returning to allowing them to operate the gates qnd and it should be for staff to look at the origin and know if it's valid from that.

It seems some passengers are now being let through but, like I was, being told they're only being allowed this time as a gesture of goodwill. Staff cannot be allowed to say this as it would be unfair for people to unnecessarily buy a Travelcard or Zone 1 ticket because they don't want to risk being fined next time.

But they’re not doing that. They’re denying entry to people. They should allow entry and sort it out at the destination.

Similarly the gates, for example, at Stevenage do not reject valid tickets just in case someone decides to travel further than their ticket allows.

I carried out some mystery shopping of my own, the outcome of which was reported upthread. I will report back if I experience any further issues.

 

[OwenB]

I carried out some mystery shopping of my own, the outcome of which was reported upthread. I will report back if I experience any further issues.

Your next challenge, should you choose to accept, is to try and use a London Terminals ticket at King's Cross at the Northern line gates to get to either Moorgate or Old Street. Good luck friend.

 

[Mojo]

But they’re not doing that. They’re denying entry to people. They should allow entry and sort it out at the destination.

That is exactly what was happenning; with customers then trying to exit somewhere else and then getting quite upset and possibly being charged higher fares. Many of which will have been irregular travellers not knowing what is meant by ‘London Terminals.’

The fact that customers travelling to Moorgate or Old St are being denied access despite briefings however is unacceptable and should be followed up with the station management team.

 

[OwenB]

That is exactly what was happenning; with customers then trying to exit somewhere else and then getting quite upset and possibly being charged higher fares. Many of which will have been irregular travellers not knowing what is meant by ‘London Terminals.’

The fact that customers travelling to Moorgate or Old St are being denied access despite briefings however is unacceptable and should be followed up with the station management team.

Couldn't agree more with your comment here. Spot on.

 

[Hadders]

It would be helpful for both staff and pssengers if posters were displayed at the relevant stations advertising the existence of the inter-availability or is that too hard to do?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously it's not in the remit of barrier staff to unilaterally decide it doesn't apply any more - but is the Moorgate one really needed any more now you can easily change between a Kings X and Moorgate bound train at Finsbury Park anyway? It never even occurred to me that it would be valid until I read it here, though it did make sense in the context of the limited service that used to operate to Moorgate.

 

[Hadders]

Obviously it's not in the remit of barrier staff to unilaterally decide it doesn't apply any more - but is the Moorgate one really needed any more now you can easily change between a Kings X and Moorgate bound train at Finsbury Park anyway? It never even occurred to me that it would be valid until I read it here, though it did make sense in the context of the limited service that used to operate to Moorgate.

Definately still needed. Not all trains stop at Finsbury Park. Also, passengers from the Hertford Loop stations wanting the west end need it, especially at weekends when the service is sparse.

 

[John @ home]

is the Moorgate one really needed any more now you can easily change between a Kings X and Moorgate bound train at Finsbury Park anyway?

Yes, it's needed. You can't change at Finsbury Park if the train to/from Kings X passes through without stopping.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, it's needed. You can't change at Finsbury Park if the train to/from Kings X passes through without stopping.

The only GN stations that do not have the "choice" of boarding a direct train that stops at Finsbury Park are Waterbeach to King's Lynn inclusive.

As much as it gives passenger freedom now, it does seem like an odd anomaly now Moorgate has a proper 7 day train service. It'd be like tickets into Victoria being valid for a tube journey to Waterloo. Why should GN passengers continue to enjoy such a privelidge when no other routes into London have an equivalent?

 

[Surreytraveller]

As much as it gives passenger freedom now, it does seem like an odd anomaly now Moorgate has a proper 7 day train service. It'd be like tickets into Victoria being valid for a tube journey to Waterloo. Why should GN passengers continue to enjoy such a privelidge when no other routes into London have an equivalent?

I'm just guessing, but I imagine it goes back to the days of when Finsbury Park to Moorgate was London Underground, and the inter-availability of tickets exists because passengers could travel either way with an Underground ticket, so that flexibility that existed pre-1976 was a requirement of the route transferring to British Rail
I imagine a London Underground ticket is valid on the Finsbury Park to Moorgate route, as well as to King's Cross or St Pancras on GN/Thameslink, and I'm sure TfL would kick off if GTR arbitrarily withdrew this ticket acceptance

 

[sheff1]

The only GN stations that do not have the "choice" of boarding a direct train that stops at Finsbury Park are Waterbeach to King's Lynn inclusive.

As much as it gives passenger freedom now, it does seem like an odd anomaly now Moorgate has a proper 7 day train service. It'd be like tickets into Victoria being valid for a tube journey to Waterloo. Why should GN passengers continue to enjoy such a privelidge when no other routes into London have an equivalent?

It is not just GN stations/passengers. Any London Terminals ticket valid into Kings Cross is valid to Moorgate via the underground.