London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service

[DaveNewcastle]

Would you like to prove they can't sustain it? I'd love to see you produce some hard evidence and not just "oh all the customers hate it... nobody will travel first anymore"

I think all the evidence required is already in posts on this and the prior thread, just not all in one place.
The 'sustainability' question is a little oblique, because we have to accept that any operator is capable of sustaining (by subsidy) one cost-centre with the asset value or revenue from another, for as long as it wishes.
However, I think most posters on here have taken the common reference point the statement by EC of the annual loss incurred by the Restaurant Car.
The company made it clear the the loss was not going to be sustained.
Once that figure (and little else) entered the debate, then we can compare their response with that.

I find it quite easy:
Each service with a Restaurant looses a few hundred and employs so many crew and consumes so much stock. It generates a few hundred in revenue.
Their response:
Same crew numbers (almost), slightly less stock (its cost is inflated through access charges) and no revenue.

The way to make it sustainable is an accounting move - either get rid of the
loss-making cost centre called 'restaurant', or (pre-supposing) transfer a few dozen STD class px to 1ST and put their revenue in the same cost-centre as the at-seat catering costs.

We can play with budget headings as much as we like, but the facts remain - which is more sustainable? A model which is expensive to deliver in access charges and staffing with high stock costs but which produces revenue; or
A model which is indistingisable to identify in access charges, carries the same staffing costs (almost) and produces no revenue?

I've done the sums - perhaps you haven't, its not just the waste, staff costs and simple arithmetic ; its what you include and exclude that makes the difference. They can sustain it forever if they can afford to; and the ECML has a good track record of sustainability, doesn't it?

For what its worth ive never found this thread to be at all staff bashing.

I'm so glad that's how it appears - That's exactly my view too. I am so very impressed with many EC catering staff, and more than pleased with those whom I don't know.
I doubt there's any confusion from my own posts, but for the record, I'm a great admirer of EC catering crews, but am a critic of their approach to managing the costs and evenue of the catering operation.

 

[DarloRich]

The issue is that unless you're on a selected service out of Kings Cross there are no meals anymore (apart from breakfast). The hot meal on the all day offer either isn't loaded or if it is it's more of a hot snack. That means that people traveling from Edinburgh/Leeds/Newcastle can't get proper meals on board anymore. That includes "cattle class" as you call them as before 22nd May standard class could have eaten in the restaurant or bought food from the at seat menu at the buffet.

I have managed many times to go from London to Glasgow wihout eating anything on the train. It isnt that difficult. If you cant go four hours without a meal things are bad. How do you get from breakfast at 7 am to Lunch at 1 pm? ( mind i have plenty of in built food reserves already!) They are giving you something to eat even if i is only a couple of sandwiches, a cake and a brew!

Do they offer you more than one choice and more than one serving on say Darlington to London? How many times can you get a new cup of tea?

Honestly, i dont understand the problem. Now, if you are saying a first class ticket SHOULD include more than this then fine, I might agree, but perhaps the price would have to rise truely cover the extra staffing and raw materials costs to cover this. Perhaps other operators took a loss on this to maintain a certain ambience or prestige. Perhaps EC/DOR cant or wont take such a loss

 

[Failed Unit]

let me just get this right

Sounds ok to me. All free

just what is the issue? In cattle class we are lucky to get a HOT cup of tea for £1.50 and you idiots are complaining becuase "things aint what they used to be" Are you still getting free food and drink forced on you? Are you paying for this food? IT IS FREE FFS - if you dont like it dont eat or better still bring it to me in cattle class and i will eat it for you!

Well after 8 years of spending over 4k per year with various East Coast operators I am now using standard if travelling after 0930 from Edinburgh (or with Virgin)

If you read the comments first class passengers don't want to arrive at their destinations hungry, but because east coast can't manage their supplier they are. Not much to ask, if you must walk to the cafe bar when you pay a premium for a service you have the right to moan. Would you be happy if you order room service only to be told to go and get it from the kitchen.

I know we keep going around in circles, but it sounds like most people are happy with Breakfast and the evening meal, it is the all day offer that needs fixing, but first east coast need to admit they have a problem!

 

[DarloRich]

Can you not manage 4 hours without food? Seriously?

Are EC offering nothing at all other than breakfast or evening meals. Is the all day option essentially AWOL? What are they offering instead? What would you get if you flew? What would you get on Virgin ( from Edinburgh or Glasgow?)

I am intrested becuase that is a service quality argument and should, really, be sorted out.

I rarely go EC now as i am not based in a decent part of the country so have little experiance of the new service.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . . but first east coast need to admit they have a problem!

Ah, well lets give their Communications Director a quick call and ask if they have a problem!
Surely we'll get a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer from these refreshingly straightforward and rational people, won't we?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can you not manage 4 hours without food? Seriously?

That's the wrong question, DarloRich!

I set the alarm clock for silly-o-clock, so that I can get to Newcastle station in time and then get to the City, Soho, Southwark or Westminster confidently by 11am. I wouldn't want a proper meal as soon as I wake, and I wouldn't want to stop off for a breakfast in London after being awake for 5 hours.
Eating on the train (and eating properly, not biscuits or sandwiches please) would be ideal. Probs around 8am.

Its the same going home. Add the time geting to Kings Cross and being 'in good time' plus the domestic trip in Newcastle. The meeting may finish at 5pm and I might just be getting into the house before 11pm. So when's the best time to eat a proper, sustaining (and maybe even healthy or enjoyable) meal?
Yes, its going to be between 7pm and 9pm. Not too different from lots of other Brits' eating pattern, probs around 8pm, and sitting right next to a fully equipped kitchen with chef? Well, really, what are you asking?

 

[ainsworth74]

Can you not manage 4 hours without food? Seriously?

Well yes of course I can! But now it seems like I will have to factor in eating either before travel or bringing a picnic rather than eating on board if I'm traveling on an evening which eats into the available time to do things whilst I'm out.

Are EC offering nothing at all other than breakfast or evening meals. Is the all day option essentially AWOL? What are they offering instead? What would you get on Virgin ( from Edinburgh or Glasgow?)

Theoretically they are offering one hot meal option on the all day menu. In practice it seems like this is often not loaded, I believe Failed Unit has been on 7 services that were supposed to have the hot option and none of them had it loaded, similarly when I used an all day service I was told it wasn't available. Indeed it seems like the first member to actually see one of these was yesterday!

If there is no hot option then it's sandwiches, a bit of cake and some crisps, now at lunch time that's not a problem (because as you that's fairly similar to my lunch) but on the evening out of Edinburgh or Newcastle that's not much of a meal.

Virgin during the day offer sandwiches and such like and then on an evening most 390 services (if not all) offer two hot meals, whereas on EC unless you're on a selected train out of Kings Cross there is only the all day offer.

 

[philjo]

And what you are offered on the northbound Highland Chieftan leaving Kings Cross at 12 noon for lunch will be roughly the same offering you are served again for tea.
(southbound isn't so bad as it is a breakfast service from Inverness)

Quite often if you have been to meetings/events duirng the day where it may be that sandwiches are served for lunch & you are travelling home afterwards. It is too early to eat before travelling & too late to eat after getting home. You don't really want sandwiches again - twice in the same day.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yep, that is the crux of the problem, finish meeting and catch the 1600 train north - stopping off could result in missing the train, kings cross is not a retail mecca! You are going to get hungry on the train, but if you don't then you can risk missing the connection at Waverley or cook at home. It is now closer to 2130 so you miss the option of buying something. 2 sandwiches don't cut the mustard.

What would I do if I am flying, I would use the time between clearing security and boarding to eat so flying is now more attractive than rail. Or I could use Virgin, but again many don't have that option.

It isn't as clear cut as 4 hours, it is what is happening at the beginning and end of the journey as well. But London - Inverness / Aberdeen is going to need a take-away delivered en-route.

 

[jon0844]

But when King's Cross opens up properly, there are going to be LOADS of shops and places selling food to take on the train.

If EC hasn't sorted its offering out by then, more people will 'slum it' in standard as they'd be stupid not to.

Isn't a lot of the new station opening this December? I am sure that when the new entrance opens, the retailers will be moving in incredibly quickly.

 

[Furrball]

It isn't as clear cut as 4 hours, it is what is happening at the beginning and end of the journey as well. But London - Inverness / Aberdeen is going to need a take-away delivered en-route.

A business opportunity for someone!!! Price of pizza plus cheapest ticket to get onto platform (as required)!!

Delivery location Edinburgh Waverley @ 16:25 Coach J

 

[DarloRich]

Ah, well lets give their Communications Director a quick call and ask if they have a problem!
Surely we'll get a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer from these refreshingly straightforward and rational people, won't we?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's the wrong question, DarloRich!

I set the alarm clock for silly-o-clock, so that I can get to Newcastle station in time and then get to the City, Soho, Southwark or Westminster confidently by 11am. I wouldn't want a proper meal as soon as I wake, and I wouldn't want to stop off for a breakfast in London after being awake for 5 hours.
Eating on the train (and eating properly, not biscuits or sandwiches please) would be ideal. Probs around 8am.

Its the same going home. Add the time geting to Kings Cross and being 'in good time' plus the domestic trip in Newcastle. The meeting may finish at 5pm and I might just be getting into the house before 11pm. So when's the best time to eat a proper, sustaining (and maybe even healthy or enjoyable) meal?
Yes, its going to be between 7pm and 9pm. Not too different from lots of other Brits' eating pattern, probs around 8pm, and sitting right next to a fully equipped kitchen with chef? Well, really, what are you asking?

That is my life too and i am in cattle class! I cook my dinner when i get in. If it is 10 or 11 you have cheese on toast and go to bed ( or i cook it the night before and re heat it)

If i have to go to York or Newcastle i am up at 0530, on the train to Euston at 630-7am, on either the GC at 0749 or the EC at 0759 or whatever it is and into York at 10 or Newcastle at 11. I work all day, get the train back about 1730-1830 and get home around 21-2200. If i want to eat something on the train i have to buy it. TBH a sandwich (nice or otherwise) that i dont pay for would tide me over till I got home

If you are on the early train do they not give you a breakfast? I am sure they offer it on the EC train i get form Kings Cross. I am sure they offered it when i got the early teain form Edinburgh too
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well yes of course I can! But now it seems like I will have to factor in eating either before travel or bringing a picnic rather than eating on board if I'm traveling on an evening which eats into the available time to do things whilst I'm out.



Theoretically they are offering one hot meal option on the all day menu. In practice it seems like this is often not loaded, I believe Failed Unit has been on 7 services that were supposed to have the hot option and none of them had it loaded, similarly when I used an all day service I was told it wasn't available. Indeed it seems like the first member to actually see one of these was yesterday!

If there is no hot option then it's sandwiches, a bit of cake and some crisps, now at lunch time that's not a problem (because as you that's fairly similar to my lunch) but on the evening out of Edinburgh or Newcastle that's not much of a meal.

Virgin during the day offer sandwiches and such like and then on an evening most 390 services (if not all) offer two hot meals, whereas on EC unless you're on a selected train out of Kings Cross there is only the all day offer.

Well that a different argument - that is not offering what you say you will and you have my full support in complaining!

 

[Failed Unit]

. If i want to eat something on the train i have to buy it. TBH a sandwich

Which for the majority us is exactly what we want to be able to do, without leaving out seat something standard class passengers can do! Grand Central now can run an advertising campaign, cheaper tickets and real at seat service . If I lived in GC territory east coast new offer would not tempt me onto East Coast.

Well that a different argument - that is not offering what you say you will and you have my full support in complaining!

Yep it is AWOL food that is annoymost of us.

However also understanding that the arguments are established, I will stop posting the same stuff. Should east coast bother to respond to my compliants I will let you know, if they don't then it is passenger focus and transport scotland. Again I will let you know what they say. My compliant also includes the padding that invalidates long standing connections at Edinburgh.

Likewise I still find the reports from other users interesting, now someone has eaten a hot meal (on the all day offering) I know it exists! I will put them in last chance saloon sometime in September, but my recent journeys in standard are also very pleasent. I don't like leaving a PC on the table unattended, but the security element has gone in 1st now you need to go to the cafe bar to get something to eat!

 

[amcluesent]

It's stale muffins again for our breakfast
Warm croissants and jam? They didn't last...
Now empty trolleys clatter by,
And train crews daren't catch your eye
C'mon Elaine, restore EC's restaurant fast!

 

[Essexman]

Advantage of train should be that you can eat as you travel - don't have to stop at motorway services for example.
It however needs to offer more than place for same distance journey - there's plenty of dead time to eat at airport so snack on plane is fine.
On train, assuming you can even find a proper meal at station, to stop & eat this adds to journey time.

 

[DarloRich]

Which for the majority us is exactly what we want to be able to do, without leaving out seat something standard class passengers can do! Grand Central now can run an advertising campaign, cheaper tickets and real at seat service . If I lived in GC territory east coast new offer would not tempt me onto East Coast.

That is TECHNICALLY the case but often there is nothing left on the trolley! I dont often go first class, it is treat for me so any extras are a bonus.

Yep it is AWOL food that is annoy most of us.

However also understanding that the arguments are established, I will stop posting the same stuff. Should east coast bother to respond to my compliants I will let you know, if they don't then it is passenger focus and transport scotland. Again I will let you know what they say. My compliant also includes the padding that invalidates long standing connections at Edinburgh.

Likewise I still find the reports from other users interesting, now someone has eaten a hot meal (on the all day offering) I know it exists! I will put them in last chance saloon sometime in September, but my recent journeys in standard are also very pleasent. I don't like leaving a PC on the table unattended, but the security element has gone in 1st now you need to go to the cafe bar to get something to eat!

That, as i say, is a different argument to "things aint what they used to be" - If a company promises you a serivce, for which you pay a premium, they must deliver. That seems to be a disgraceful state of affairs. At the most basic level it is not a good idea to annoy your "premium" customers. The PR alone must be terrible

You should invest in a Kensington chain and secure your lappy to the table leg. - I have seen people do that!

 

[jon0844]

Going to the toilet is a big enough PITA on a train, especially if it going to stop while you're gone and you come back to find your stuff nicked (and it does happen, even if it is very rare). To then have to go to the cafe bar is another annoyance.

If you're with other people it's not so bad obviously, and it can be a nice way to stretch your legs. However, in first class there must be a disproportionately high number of travellers on their own.

 

[Blindtraveler]

well just gone Leicester to Edinburgh on 2 leather seated, air conditioned national express coaches, returning home at 9pm last night. XC have long not had my business and EC have almost done the same thing given what I'd have got going PBO - EDB. Instead, I had fish n chips at tebay services and saved the person paying for it for me 50 quid.

 

[amcluesent]

We top paying pax must keep complaining,
That two wee sarnies aren't sustaining!
Choosing EC is getting harder,
Such meagre rations from their larder...
Fact Elaine, your passenger's patience is fast waning!

 

[Blindtraveler]

mate, i love these, keep at it!

 

[YorkshireRider]

well just gone Leicester to Edinburgh on 2 leather seated, air conditioned national express coaches, returning home at 9pm last night. XC have long not had my business and EC have almost done the same thing given what I'd have got going PBO - EDB. Instead, I had fish n chips at tebay services and saved the person paying for it for me 50 quid.

I take it this required a change of coaches? How long did this take? I can bare a coach for an hour or so but anymore no way, surely XC are not that bad? EC might not give you what food you want but it will get you there in less time then it takes to get to the west coast of USA.

 

[davidgiles]

My mother, a venerable rail traveller, had occasion to use First Class on the up Chieftain yesterday. She was not impressed.

Breakfast was 'eventually served' by two hostesses that she described as seeming 'rather harrassed'. No sausages had been loaded, and the mushrooms were inedible. The coffee was 'rather lukewarm'.

After the switch to the all-day offering at Edinburgh, she was offered two sandwiches - not the expected four. No sign of the salad or hot meal option. There was also 'about four pieces of fruit' on the trolley. No cake either.

Given that she'd reserved her seat weeks ago, she was distinctly underwhelmed that they'd failed to get sufficient supplies on board the train.

 

[Failed Unit]

My mother, a venerable rail traveller, had occasion to use First Class on the up Chieftain yesterday. She was not impressed.

Breakfast was 'eventually served' by two hostesses that she described as seeming 'rather harrassed'. No sausages had been loaded, and the mushrooms were inedible. The coffee was 'rather lukewarm'.

After the switch to the all-day offering at Edinburgh, she was offered two sandwiches - not the expected four. No sign of the salad or hot meal option. There was also 'about four pieces of fruit' on the trolley. No cake either.

Given that she'd reserved her seat weeks ago, she was distinctly underwhelmed that they'd failed to get sufficient supplies on board the train.

This is a classic example of what annoyed me about some posts on this thread. You are describing an occasional passenger, but some people would have critised the customer with the did she ask for x, y and z. If it is on the menu you should ask, you can read, if you don't ask you don't get blah, blah, blah. I bet this is another customer east coast have lost. I hope she writes in to complian.

 

[davidgiles]

This is a classic example of what annoyed me about some posts on this thread. You are describing an occasional passenger, but some people would have critised the customer with the did she ask for x, y and z. If it is on the menu you should ask, you can read, if you don't ask you don't get blah, blah, blah. I bet this is another customer east coast have lost. I hope she writes in to complian.

Quite. She chose to travel First Class to enjoy a relaxed and comfortable journey, NOT to have to study the small print of the menu and compare it with the combined wisdom of internet aficianados who know what should be offered. She expects a First Class service to be, well, first class - not as little as the staff can get away with. And she expects the coffee to be hot and the food to be palatable. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I take it this required a change of coaches? How long did this take? I can bare a coach for an hour or so but anymore no way, surely XC are not that bad? EC might not give you what food you want but it will get you there in less time then it takes to get to the west coast of USA.

yes it is slow, 8 odd hours but there were a few reasons for my choice - XC standard was a wripoff and as stated before they have lost much of my business as standing on a vomiter with a stinky toilet for company because my seat has been dubble booked and the person in it is not capable of standing 4 plus hours aint to me a good use of over 60 quid. The new timetable leavs a bit to be desired on many PBO - EDB journey times and the connections from Leicester aint wonderfull which combined with the fact that I wanted to eat something and didnt fancy this weeks option combined with school holidays starting in some places made me do it. Its far from ideal but was attempting to keep costs down for the voluntary orgonisation I was doing some work for.

I've tried the aj day offer and do tìnk its ok if stock etc is a8ailable and what you want to eat is there. I'm not a fussy eater but some of the offer isnt to my liking. My fave has to be the cheese and onion tart. Tasty!

 

[telstarbox]

Something to be said for the NX/Megabus - you always get a seat!

 

[Skimble19]

Quite. She chose to travel First Class to enjoy a relaxed and comfortable journey, NOT to have to study the small print of the menu and compare it with the combined wisdom of internet aficianados who know what should be offered. She expects a First Class service to be, well, first class - not as little as the staff can get away with. And she expects the coffee to be hot and the food to be palatable. Seems reasonable to me.

Ahh, never realised travelling First Class meant you were above reading a menu.. I do feel ever so sorry for her for such an inconvenience! :roll:

 

[amcluesent]

Chieftan crews got a right strop on,
When asked about the days hot option.
"Hoots! Can you no' read oor wee menu?"
They'd rather be blethering than help you.
Elaine, best be getting that thinking cap back on!

 

[Failed Unit]

One from myself

For all the first class passengers.

There once was an operator called east coast.
Who's catering offer was previosly worth a boast.
Now the give things away for free
Passengers thought they were taking the pee.
As arriving hungry is the default for most.

 

[davidgiles]

Ahh, never realised travelling First Class meant you were above reading a menu.. I do feel ever so sorry for her for such an inconvenience! :roll:

With respect, that's misrepresenting the situation. It's not just like reading a menu in a restaurant, is it? It's:

a) finding a menu, which even the staff admit have not been present on some trains
b) working out which 'day part' you might be in, which requires reference to another document entirely. In any case, it is not exactly obvious from East Coast's published timetable whether one might be on a fabled 'selected service' (late breakfast and afternoon tea services are not separately highlighted, and the times against some stations lack any highlighting at all)
c) second-guessing what sandwich fillings might be available (if indeed any have been loaded)

Besides, if staff ask if you'd like a sandwich you might naturally assume that they will be along later to offer the other options. That appears not to be the case - one has to be proactive in requesting the salad/hot dish (with a high likelihood of being told that it's not available anyway).

To me (and more specifically, to my mother) that is not a first class service. It is complicated, awkward and reeks of incompetence. Why should the travelling public be interested in whether East Coast's supplier is letting them down? It's shoddy service regardless of the cause. And to keep blaming the customer who has paid a premium is appalling.

She would probably have despatched a sternly worded email to EC customer services there and then, but the 'complimentary' wi-fi wasn't working either. Several people took issue with the staff, but they either couldn't or wouldn't do anything about it.

 

[Failed Unit]

East coast had a chairman called Eliane,
Who started a catering policy which was insane,
If your journey was long,
You will find the food is all gone,
So you will never travel first class again!