Did it make a loss if you include the full first fare tickets of those who may no decide to fly?
The paid for at seat service took up no extra seats.
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London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service
- Thread starter MidnightFlyer
- Start date
Did it make a loss if you include the full first fare tickets of those who may no decide to fly?
The paid for at seat service took up no extra seats.
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R
RailUK Forums
I can see why the restaurant perhaps didn't make loads of money, given regular users wouldn't always pay the high price. However, what about those travelling for leisure?
To me, I'd consider that (going by the former weekend upgrades) FC is pretty empty at weekends so for weekends you could reinstate the restaurant with no ill effect on the sale of FC tickets.
Maybe adjust the menu a bit to cater for leisure travellers and then potentially make money. For whatever reason, weekends are always seen as the time to CUT service when I'd suggest it might actually get more people to travel by train. I'd even suggest offering a meal as part of the ticket price, say adding another £10 on at the point of sale with a reservation in the restaurant and your meal and complimentary drink (one large can of beer, or a small bottle of wine) included.
This would be superior to simply selling stuff from the cafe bar.
To me, I'd consider that (going by the former weekend upgrades) FC is pretty empty at weekends so for weekends you could reinstate the restaurant with no ill effect on the sale of FC tickets.
Maybe adjust the menu a bit to cater for leisure travellers and then potentially make money. For whatever reason, weekends are always seen as the time to CUT service when I'd suggest it might actually get more people to travel by train. I'd even suggest offering a meal as part of the ticket price, say adding another £10 on at the point of sale with a reservation in the restaurant and your meal and complimentary drink (one large can of beer, or a small bottle of wine) included.
This would be superior to simply selling stuff from the cafe bar.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The point about LEISURE passengers travelling at weekends, as described above, could have a market niche at those days. If there are marketing availabilities, why not take advantage of these?
If catering lost £20 million providing you at-seat & restaurants but giving you free food only lost, in example, £10 million then really it's clear to see what the better deal is for the company.
Adding on £10 at the point of sale for a meal voucher etc still doesn't help reduce the waste and loss catering would gain at the end of the day.
We've come full circle again, someone please see sense and close this until someone comes up with something new to post, in which they can start a new thread.
Adding on £10 at the point of sale for a meal voucher etc still doesn't help reduce the waste and loss catering would gain at the end of the day.
We've come full circle again, someone please see sense and close this until someone comes up with something new to post, in which they can start a new thread.
a good off
Member
Sorry, I'm enjoying this thread and personally I think it should be kept going until EC can offer their long distance passengers with realistic and adequate catering (in my opinion). I will revert to air for my London - Inverness journeys if I can't obtain a decent hot meal in the 8+ hours I'm sat on the train. I'm sure this will also apply to the Newcastle/Edinburgh market in some cases. Glasgow passengers have the option of getting fed with Virgin.
EC may have saved £20m but cost themselves more in the long run as they lose the Anglo-Scottish traffic to air and other TOC's.
EC may have saved £20m but cost themselves more in the long run as they lose the Anglo-Scottish traffic to air and other TOC's.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
I agree. This thread is of great concern to many regular and occassional travellers, as well as to a number of staff and casual observers. I expect the tread is closed when when there's nothing left to be said or the forum's staff decide to take adminstrative action.
As some of you are aware, I find the matter of on-board catering on EC to be a very significant issue, (between London - Newcastle - Edinburgh and either Glasgow or Inverness). The matter is NOT closed and is not likely to be closed as long as I travel regularly between Newcastle - London. I'll go further, its got very little to do with whatever the current franchise holder's management decide - we're now well into a consumer led economony (whether we like it or not), and if the consumers are looking elsewhere (station outlets, cafe-bar offerings, home packed snacks) then that's the challenge: they're looking elsewhere.
BTW I enjoyed a lovely bowl of vegetable soup last week, served on sumptious Pullman stock, by friendly, attentive and professional staff. Very tasty, clearly made from fresh ingredients, and served with a choice of breads, spreads and seasoning, with 'proper' silverware.
(It was while bouncing over jointed track on the NYMR at 8pm, served from a terrine with a lid, and served by a ladel; maybe not the same as carrying 3 open bowls of over-heated EC soup while twisting through the Offord Curves, but it was hard to identify the hazards! whether to the staff or the passengers.)
As for the quoted figures reflecting the 'alledged' losses, I really thoght we had debunked that particular accounting sleight-f-hand earlier on this thread.
More covers with the same amount of crew and no income is less of a loss that fewer covers with market-value revenue? Who with any commercial and accounting experience is deceived by that one? Its nothing more than what it is - an attempt to create a year's Profit and Loss account which, under its inherited cost centres, appears attractive to an incumbent franchise bidder.
Its got nothing to do with passengers. Nothing to do with staff. Nothing to do with catering.
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StrollerEd
Member
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- 27 May 2011
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- 180
if IFs and ANDs were pots and pans, there'd be no need for .... this thread
EC has mad a big mistake - but it and the incoming TOC can learn from this thread if it recognises that this provides valuable marlket research from its long distance travellers who have a choice.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Good post Dave. I am not an accountant and I know from personal experience east coast don't give out much food, but alcohol? How can giving away free alcohol lose the company less money than selling it to people?
I know how the reduce the wastage in food, don't load enough on for the passengers in the first place! But even before May 22nd I often heard people turned away as the had no food left!
As for closing this thread, that would be the wrong thing to do, I will keep checking, if I read that east coast have stopped starving people I may return to first again.
I know how the reduce the wastage in food, don't load enough on for the passengers in the first place! But even before May 22nd I often heard people turned away as the had no food left!
As for closing this thread, that would be the wrong thing to do, I will keep checking, if I read that east coast have stopped starving people I may return to first again.
Red Dragon
Member
Well here I am on the 14.50 ex Aberdeen travelling to York, I was on the 07.10 ex LDS to ABD this morning.
The story so far: -
Boarded at LDS, offered toast and croissants after York, had a full English North of York, lots of T and coffee given, toasty supplied (not ordered) just before the Royal Border Bridge (would have been churlish to have refused it).
After Inverkeithing more T and coffee and then lunch, and as usual sandwiches were offered. Requested the Caesar Salad and a glass of the red infuriator – no problem, but I now understand why the salad is considered “inadequate” and have a certain amount of sympathy.
On the rtn journey apologies from the staff as the gannets, on the way up, had eaten all the food and there were only onion bhajis left. They will re-load from RG at EDB and we are promised a full menu.
Now south of Leuchars and the staff are very apologetic, only able to offer fruit cake, crisps or an orange. It’s embarrassing for them.
I think I’m really going to miss my steak and chips with a few glasses of the old red infuriator as we travel South, on the left hand side, from EDB in the luxury of dining car.
Come back GNER all is forgiven !
ps 16.30 just been given another glass of red infuriator, at room temperature.
The story so far: -
Boarded at LDS, offered toast and croissants after York, had a full English North of York, lots of T and coffee given, toasty supplied (not ordered) just before the Royal Border Bridge (would have been churlish to have refused it).
After Inverkeithing more T and coffee and then lunch, and as usual sandwiches were offered. Requested the Caesar Salad and a glass of the red infuriator – no problem, but I now understand why the salad is considered “inadequate” and have a certain amount of sympathy.
On the rtn journey apologies from the staff as the gannets, on the way up, had eaten all the food and there were only onion bhajis left. They will re-load from RG at EDB and we are promised a full menu.
Now south of Leuchars and the staff are very apologetic, only able to offer fruit cake, crisps or an orange. It’s embarrassing for them.
I think I’m really going to miss my steak and chips with a few glasses of the old red infuriator as we travel South, on the left hand side, from EDB in the luxury of dining car.
Come back GNER all is forgiven !
ps 16.30 just been given another glass of red infuriator, at room temperature.
Do let us know if you get given one of the illusive all day hot options when you leave EDB! Might be one of the first confirmed sightings so far by anyone on this board 
Red Dragon
Member
Do let us know if you get given one of the illusive all day hot options when you leave EDB! Might be one of the first confirmed sightings so far by anyone on this board
Just arriving "into" Waverley.
Sorry, as a Welshman, I find the mis-use of English so infuriating.
For arriving into please read arriving at.
Now re-loading with lots of pax and hopefully lots of decent food (and red infuriator ! ) Have fun
Will issue report(s) later.
Kind regards
Red Dragon
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"Dinner" has been served to the pax.
Trolley came through, sandwiches were offered and taken by everyone (no mention of the alternatives).
There was one exception - I asked for a hot meal. A pink label was put on my table
( I may be given a bell and asked to chant "unclean" later).
Arrived Berwick - still no food. Looking for the bell and rehearsing the "UNCLEAN" chant
Risotto arrived.
Overall assessment - in my opinion the First Class at seat service has been over promised and is being under delivered by EC, and I'd far rather pay for a decent meal in a dining car. Having spoken to a number of pax during the day, many of them weren't really botheed about having a meal, but those who did want to eat were particularly disappointed by the offerings. The run from ABD to EDB was just a farce as there was hardly anything on offer - fruit cake, crisps or you could fight over the last orange!
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I will stick up for EC. I have made two trips with them recently in First and I was very impressed on both occasions.
The first was a northbound trip from York-Edinburgh on a bank holiday. Tasty pastries were served at seat with coffee, tea, orange. The service was friendly and, impressively, there were four servings! Not bad at all, and all credit to the staff for their efforts.
Last Friday, I made a shorter weekday trip between Newcastle and Doncaster (as part of a longer trip to Hull). Coffee and tea came straight after departing, shortly followed by a nice Marston's ale and some delicious bacon and egg sandwiches with Bert's crisps. Slightly disappointed at the lack of cake but only a minor point really. Again, the staff were very friendly. We were even offered another drink, but about 5 minutes out of Doncaster, so I politely turned it down.
Okay, so it isn't the restaurant car, but I was pleasantly surprised on both my trips. The staff are, on the whole, doing a great job. I feel like perhaps we are giving them an unnecessarily hard time. Maybe the difference here is that I was making a short trip though. Have to say, the beetroot risotto did not sound very appetising - perhaps if East Coast can improve the hot choices for long distance passengers, they might well have cracked it.
The first was a northbound trip from York-Edinburgh on a bank holiday. Tasty pastries were served at seat with coffee, tea, orange. The service was friendly and, impressively, there were four servings! Not bad at all, and all credit to the staff for their efforts.
Last Friday, I made a shorter weekday trip between Newcastle and Doncaster (as part of a longer trip to Hull). Coffee and tea came straight after departing, shortly followed by a nice Marston's ale and some delicious bacon and egg sandwiches with Bert's crisps. Slightly disappointed at the lack of cake but only a minor point really. Again, the staff were very friendly. We were even offered another drink, but about 5 minutes out of Doncaster, so I politely turned it down.
Okay, so it isn't the restaurant car, but I was pleasantly surprised on both my trips. The staff are, on the whole, doing a great job. I feel like perhaps we are giving them an unnecessarily hard time. Maybe the difference here is that I was making a short trip though. Have to say, the beetroot risotto did not sound very appetising - perhaps if East Coast can improve the hot choices for long distance passengers, they might well have cracked it.
SAA738
New Member
Hey all,
Interesting thread ! On a Tuesday in August I'll be on the 18:03 King's Cross to Skipton train in first class, journey time 3h13m. What food should I be offered on this trip (just the evening meal + pudding) ? And how many alcohol offerings should I be offered (I only want 2 or 3) but wondered what the expected minimum amount of offerings should be ?
Interesting thread ! On a Tuesday in August I'll be on the 18:03 King's Cross to Skipton train in first class, journey time 3h13m. What food should I be offered on this trip (just the evening meal + pudding) ? And how many alcohol offerings should I be offered (I only want 2 or 3) but wondered what the expected minimum amount of offerings should be ?
Yes and we are receiving all the stick and all the blame. It's our fault the changes happen. It's out fault you only get offered at certain points in the journey. It's our fault things run out. It's our fault the meals aren't enough. It's our fault regardless of the matter, the staff are at fault.
Again it fails to amaze me that people are not simply asking for the hot option and are instead sitting and sitting and sitting, waiting for a member of staff to actually ask if they want the meal. I
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The staff get the blame for everything and anything at the minute. On here it seems to be our fault some will have goto the bar and queue!
I'm also confused why some people will sit and wait and wait and wait until a member of staff specifically asks them if they want the hot option. If they don't come round and specifically ask then I can see any reason why people aren't asking when the trolley passes. I'm also confused why most will ask "What do you have?" despite having read the menu.
And on the subject of the menu's I've been curious as to where some of them are going, all trains are issued with them on the Wednesday but they mysteriously go walkabout.
Firstly they seem to be handy for business folk to jot down numbers and information they are receiving on their phone, then ripping the pages so they can keep their notes.
Secondly they seem to have become the new souvenir for passengers. I've seen quite a few 'vanish' into bags today. Maybe we should start searching your bags before you get off?
On Catering Losses. Basically what they're effectively saying is, we know catering is making a loss and we've tried to reduce the loss and increase the sales but it isn't working. Instead we'll do all this and give all this away for free and lose less money. Just because the restaurants were full and ran out of food doesn't mean there was no wastage on the train. And just because that train ran out doesn't mean the 6 others also ran out. I have seen the waste figures as I'm sure many have and the amount which was being wasted was just breathtaking.
Again it fails to amaze me that people are not simply asking for the hot option and are instead sitting and sitting and sitting, waiting for a member of staff to actually ask if they want the meal. I
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The staff get the blame for everything and anything at the minute. On here it seems to be our fault some will have goto the bar and queue!
I'm also confused why some people will sit and wait and wait and wait until a member of staff specifically asks them if they want the hot option. If they don't come round and specifically ask then I can see any reason why people aren't asking when the trolley passes. I'm also confused why most will ask "What do you have?" despite having read the menu.
And on the subject of the menu's I've been curious as to where some of them are going, all trains are issued with them on the Wednesday but they mysteriously go walkabout.
Firstly they seem to be handy for business folk to jot down numbers and information they are receiving on their phone, then ripping the pages so they can keep their notes.
Secondly they seem to have become the new souvenir for passengers. I've seen quite a few 'vanish' into bags today. Maybe we should start searching your bags before you get off?
On Catering Losses. Basically what they're effectively saying is, we know catering is making a loss and we've tried to reduce the loss and increase the sales but it isn't working. Instead we'll do all this and give all this away for free and lose less money. Just because the restaurants were full and ran out of food doesn't mean there was no wastage on the train. And just because that train ran out doesn't mean the 6 others also ran out. I have seen the waste figures as I'm sure many have and the amount which was being wasted was just breathtaking.
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Failed Unit
Established Member
But how are we supposed to know 1. What the meal is and 2. If it was loaded in the first place! I know the staff have a rock in the hard place and I feel sorry for them which brings me full circle to my next point. Are east coasts management looking for feedback? The don't leave forms on the trains to hand back, the rely on the fact people are so annoyed they will complian. Have they gone out on the 1200 London - Inverness for example? Have the even had a session at main stations? Nope the management seem to be in denial the customers are hungry. We dare not speak to the staff in case we get our heads bitten off at the end of a long day! You want 4 sandwiches - you gready &";? What about everyone else. A hot meal - go to the cafe bar you low life!
Blindtraveler
Established Member
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i think its sad that people like Silentone and other staff get the blame, they cant help it. i want this thread kept going as its interesting but if its to be used for staff bashing then mods please close it!!!
Failed Unit
Established Member
I am a big critic of the changes, never once have I blamed the staff, but when the menu says drinks with an appetiser, you do not feel that nice saying where is the appertiser just to be told it is in kings cross, when you are offered on or two sandwiches it doesn't seem right to request 4. I see your point about the hot meal but it is a chicken and egg yes it is on the menu but doesn't mean it exists, many don't ask out of politeness. I do but still end up disappointed!
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I don't think people are staff bashing - it is the staff that tell us to get over ourselves.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't think people are staff bashing - it is the staff that tell us to get over ourselves.
Blindtraveler
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sorry, should have been clearer, I dont think so iether at present but thought there may be a wrisk of it and wanted to highlight for all to reae. i'm afraid I too have now tried weekday E C first and the salad wasnt available, again, not loaded. i didnt blame staff but like many others have sent a message to customer services as by the time they got to me there was none of the hot option left as it hadnt been loaded in full iether. Nobody onboards fault!
StrollerEd
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this is not about the staff - never had a problem with them, quite the reverse - its about a failure of polcy
amcluesent
Member
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>I have seen the waste figures as I'm sure many have and the amount which was being wasted was just breathtaking.<
Pretty basic supply and demand then, was it not? If there wasn't enough covers, then they could have run offers such as twofors or free drink on the services which weren't covering costs to create demand.
If course, now it's £0 there's too much demand and pax are being rationed! Pity EC couldn't have found the sweet spot.
>this is not about the staff <
It can be, such as when southbound train crew feel they can 'knock off' at PBO
Pretty basic supply and demand then, was it not? If there wasn't enough covers, then they could have run offers such as twofors or free drink on the services which weren't covering costs to create demand.
If course, now it's £0 there's too much demand and pax are being rationed! Pity EC couldn't have found the sweet spot.
>this is not about the staff <
It can be, such as when southbound train crew feel they can 'knock off' at PBO
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Well what can I say. If you're not asking you're clearly not going to get it! Why not ask for a couple of each sandwich and see what you get? What not ask if there's an appetiser? How do you know it's at Kings Cross? I do try telepathy with some of my passengers but I've yet to have any success. If people are stealing the menu's simply ask what's on offer then ask if there's a hot meal.
You also know very well what the comment was geared at. Some people seem to think going to the Bar is beneath them, yes you are First Class but nobody on any train is that important that they are exempt from standing at the Bar.
On the subject of passengers, and how their minds work. Staff members walk through one will have two jugs the other carrying milk and an extra Tea or Coffee. You're then asked if you would like tea or coffee to which the passenger will reply yes I'll have tea please.... then stare at you. Now I can attempt telepathy to guess if you want Tea or Coffee but getting the cup turned upright is a whole other ball game, we're in Paul Daniels territory here. Surely it's not too much to ask that you turn your the cup over, is it?
Supply and demand yes but if the crew didn't take the temperatures of the modules anything in it was waste. So most likely 8 pints of milk, tomatoes, cheese, 20 butter, 10 flora, 8 panini's, 2 of each cold sandwich, 6 orange juice. Then the restaurant/dining stock so burgers, steaks, salmon, mash, veg, desserts. Now that's just one train. There are endless possibilities of how waste can be generated but mainly temperature checks and over-ordering are the two main culprits. Some of the dining stock was also only able to be refrigerated once, so once it's sent to the train if it isn't used it went as waste.
We also take the brunt of the blame when RG fail to deliver items. They have improved and the problem now seems to be them actually running out of stock rather than them failing to deliver it but I'm told there are some EC bodies also linked to shortages.
You also know very well what the comment was geared at. Some people seem to think going to the Bar is beneath them, yes you are First Class but nobody on any train is that important that they are exempt from standing at the Bar.
On the subject of passengers, and how their minds work. Staff members walk through one will have two jugs the other carrying milk and an extra Tea or Coffee. You're then asked if you would like tea or coffee to which the passenger will reply yes I'll have tea please.... then stare at you. Now I can attempt telepathy to guess if you want Tea or Coffee but getting the cup turned upright is a whole other ball game, we're in Paul Daniels territory here. Surely it's not too much to ask that you turn your the cup over, is it?
Supply and demand yes but if the crew didn't take the temperatures of the modules anything in it was waste. So most likely 8 pints of milk, tomatoes, cheese, 20 butter, 10 flora, 8 panini's, 2 of each cold sandwich, 6 orange juice. Then the restaurant/dining stock so burgers, steaks, salmon, mash, veg, desserts. Now that's just one train. There are endless possibilities of how waste can be generated but mainly temperature checks and over-ordering are the two main culprits. Some of the dining stock was also only able to be refrigerated once, so once it's sent to the train if it isn't used it went as waste.
We also take the brunt of the blame when RG fail to deliver items. They have improved and the problem now seems to be them actually running out of stock rather than them failing to deliver it but I'm told there are some EC bodies also linked to shortages.
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theblackwatch
Established Member
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Possibly because they think things may have run out (which you have admitted happens!). Also, when I travelled (on a Tuesday - the 14th June for the record), the hot option offered didn't correspond wht what was on the menu anyway! The menu said 'Roasted feta and pepper quiche' when in actual fact it was Goats Cheese & Red onion tart. It's the only eating establishment I've come across which puts out a menu which differs from what's on offer!
Blindtraveler
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common sense peoples please haha! Know what you mean, I work in a hospital which deals with one particular part of the boddy and foalk are for ever turning up saying they have an appointment about this particular boddy part but never have a clue who they are seeing and on which floor they are seeing them. Grrr
amcluesent
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I worried I had become a 'power asker', reeling off my order to the crew on the drinks and food trolley 
StrollerEd
Member
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surely this is not a place of therapy for staff who feel hard done by
its about a big mistake that EC have made in abandoning a pay-if-you want icon of the resturant car with a its-free-so-you-eat-it policy that they cannot susain
if the food proposition is good then that means happy staff and happy customers, but if not then its neither
its about a big mistake that EC have made in abandoning a pay-if-you want icon of the resturant car with a its-free-so-you-eat-it policy that they cannot susain
if the food proposition is good then that means happy staff and happy customers, but if not then its neither
The menu's do also additionally state about things being altered or replaced at short notice. The 14th was a Tuesday I believe, Wednesdays are menu change day and quite often the later trains get the new menu stock mixed with the current week's offer.
Again if you don't ask you will never know if it's run out or not. Clearly you haven't all lost your voices.
A gentleman almost died on my train from starvation apparently. He had travelled the entire length of the route and not had any tea or coffee or food. I asked how that was possible when everyone around him had eaten.... he replied that he had been sleeping since he got on. (He actually did tell me this). Do all First Class passengers wish to be woken up when the drinks & food come? I'll quite happily wake you all up! Infact when I toddle off to work tomorrow morning I'll awake you all to check if you want some Coffee!
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From what I have read on here I actually think I will never go first class on EC again.
I now feel that staff might think I was greedy, ungrateful or simply stupid for saying or asking for anything. I was worried that going free would result in a "it's free so take it or leave it" attitude and that appears to be the case.
Worse than not getting anything would be assuming you won't get anything and then wasting money bringing your own food and drink on to find a rare service that is stocked. Far better to just go standard and save the guessing and uncertainty, and a few quid.
Perhaps if an advanced FC ticket is cheaper it would be different but surely they want to sell open returns not cheap tickets.
Way to go EC!
Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia arc via Tapatalk.
I now feel that staff might think I was greedy, ungrateful or simply stupid for saying or asking for anything. I was worried that going free would result in a "it's free so take it or leave it" attitude and that appears to be the case.
Worse than not getting anything would be assuming you won't get anything and then wasting money bringing your own food and drink on to find a rare service that is stocked. Far better to just go standard and save the guessing and uncertainty, and a few quid.
Perhaps if an advanced FC ticket is cheaper it would be different but surely they want to sell open returns not cheap tickets.
Way to go EC!
Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia arc via Tapatalk.