London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service

[Blindtraveler]

a sad day it wil be if said through train is
withdrawn. mind you, additional sleaper coaches would go some way to justifying its existance post mk3 life expiry, not to mention you have a choice of purchasable food and drink.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

EC may as well operate more like an airline and just have two choices - meat or vegetarian - and then go down asking people what they want. ... Far easier than taking orders and coming back.

This is what Virgin does isn't it? Much smoother operation, no dashing up and down the train, just one pass through with the trolley.

 

[jon0844]

Is it? I haven't used either service in first class on any day other than a weekend. I always heard about how good the restaurant was on the ECML services, but never got to experience it for various reasons.

The Virgin setup sounds far better, and easier. It also means that - like a plane - hopefully everything is served and you get some peace and quiet for a bit, before being offered another drink or biscuits.

I do think EC seems to have come up with a system that stops people getting some time to relax, work or just have a conversation with each other. Staff interrupt passengers. Passengers annoy staff because they don't know what's going on.. The two sides to the coin.

I am not sure I'd suddenly switch to flying, but I'd probably begin to wonder if it isn't just easier to go standard instead, and have a decent meal before/after or take something onboard.

 

[Failed Unit]

That is how virgin work, same risks of food running out but i have only known that during airline disruption. It must result in more wasteage, but overall the virgin offer is much better in terms of how it is offered, what is offered and how much. Virgin for example understand the Anglo-Scottish routes need more than 2 sandwiches. They provide dinner southbound, or start service from Preston. Why east coast don't start at York on the 1600 which is going to Aberdeen is an amazingly poor understanding of what long distance passengers need.

 

[StrollerEd]

just stumbled on a thread on flyertalk

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/u-k-ireland/1184628-east-coast-scrapping-kitchens.html

which had the following links:

[You're] right about the poor wine selection, things used to be better: here's the last ever GNER drinks list.

For completeness here's the other GNER summer 2007 menus:
Dinner
Lunch (restaurants at lunchtime were scrapped under NXEC)
Breakfast
At-seat dining

 

[All Line Rover]

just stumbled on a thread on flyertalk

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/u-k-ireland/1184628-east-coast-scrapping-kitchens.html

which had the following links:

[You're] right about the poor wine selection, things used to be better: here's the last ever GNER drinks list.

For completeness here's the other GNER summer 2007 menus:
Dinner
Lunch (restaurants at lunchtime were scrapped under NXEC)
Breakfast
At-seat dining

To be honest the prices do look a bit steep. £15.95 for an English Breakfast! They're free now!

I think complimentary food is the way to go. Virgin has cracked it, but East Coast need to improve their "All Day" and "Evening Meal" offerings.

 

[Failed Unit]

To be honest the prices do look a bit steep. £15.95 for an English Breakfast! They're free now!

I think complimentary food is the way to go. Virgin has cracked it, but East Coast need to improve their "All Day" and "Evening Meal" offerings.

Remember some tickets already had complimentary food, the Dine and Go and Scottish Exec to name 2. Likewise £16 from Newark was good value if you had a standard class ticket. But that is why they have done it, get them into first if they are hungry.

 

[All Line Rover]

Remember some tickets already had complimentary food, the Dine and Go and Scottish Exec to name 2. Likewise £16 from Newark was good value if you had a standard class ticket. But that is why they have done it, get them into first if they are hungry.

The thing about Standard Class ticket holders is that it wasn't really a "First Class" carriage, was it? It was simply a "Dining Carriage."

East Coast obviously want as many people as possible to travel First Class. The Restaurant Car didn't help. That's not to say that the new "complimentary" offering doesn't need improving...

 

[philjo]

To be honest the prices do look a bit steep. £15.95 for an English Breakfast! They're free now!

I think complimentary food is the way to go. Virgin has cracked it, but East Coast need to improve their "All Day" and "Evening Meal" offerings.

It was more expensive under GNER but the £15.95 was for a full breakfast which included cereals or porridge etc first then the cooked breakfast of which the portion was generous. Followed by several slices of toast if wanted. I generally didn't need much lunch (or have it late) if I had had the GNER breakfast! And you could get it on most services (including most northbound ones) with a standard class ticket.

This changed to £12 more recently with the EC at seat dining.
Just the cooked breakfast (with a much smaller portion) & tea/coffee and toast (one slice) brought on the same plate as the cooked breakfast.

I suspect that the EC complimentary offering has a smaller portion still?

I had the complimentary Virgin breakfast a couple of weeks ago out of euston - unfortunately they had run out of the smoked salmon by the time they took my order (was in coach H) so had the full english. Good & hot but much smaller than you used to get with GNER when you paid for it.
But it was brought out quite quickly - order was taken around watford & the food arrived before Milton Keynes. 2 opportunities to take toast.

Will be sampling the virgin evening dinner back from New Street to Euston early in July.

With EC - wouldn't it make more sense for the quiet coach to be coach M rather than K?
M is at the end of the train so there would be less people walking through the coach considering that the Kitchen is in H so any food to the rest of 1st has to go through the quiet coach.

On Virgin the Kitchen on the pendolinos is in the end coach so the use of coach H is better for the quiet coach for the same reasons.

 

[jon0844]

Did EC change things because the restaurant was losing money from lack of use, or the lack of first class tickets they could sell to fill it with more FC passengers?

Given how people on business may get an allowance for food, and how many seem to spend a fortune in a motorway service station, is it so bad to continue to charge for things?

Going back to what I said about EC having some sort of loyalty scheme to enable the company to keep track (sic) of what its customers are doing, it would have probably made more sense to give a voucher with any (non-advance) first class ticket, which could either be used to buy food/drink OR be used against future travel instead.

I am not sure about the rules on benefit in kind for tax reasons, but that would enable someone on business to perhaps accumulate points for leisure travel for the family - and EC ensures the money has to be spent with its own operation too.

I presume standard is already well used, but EC could even offer a complimentary soft drink / tea / coffee and packet of crisps etc to those on a normal (again, non-advance) standard class ticket.

I wonder how many options EC considered, or if they'd made up their mind from the outset then came up with some survey to ask the 'right' questions to prove the case.. like saying 'Would you prefer to pay for food in first class or have it free?'.

 

[silentone]

There is not a single service on the route (other than weekends) that offer only sandwiches. There is at very minimum that weeks hot meal, this week it's a quiche, on most there is also a salad. No doubt not enough for those burger fans. We are in the Summer months so there is no saying what may or may not be on the cards for the autumn/winter menu's.

I'm also sure both the ticket types mentioned above had some restrictions and were a specific package tailored to different needs in which the Food part only made up one part.

Okay, so whenever there's a big change nobody will proclaim it's perfect and that it doesn't require more work. The reality is that the old catering, although generated money, it lost far more. In hindsight things could have been done better and past mistakes could have been avoided but the entire operation was in self-destruct mode for years. And for that very reason that old catering operation is unlikely to return, and there has been so much that has gone on that will never be known to some of you.

Elaine Holt has been *ermm* on the war path the past few days with some crews/trains/managers. RG have also been getting it in the neck and have themselves been giving EC some things to think about. I've no doubt Customer Services are quite literally snowed in with complaints as the past 2/3 weeks have been quite something.

At weekends if you don't like any of what's available then there is the Cafe Bar, which has the same range of items available as before (minus the meals, although I was told these were being removed for Summer anyway). I'm sure this paragraph will come under fire merely at the suggestion of having to go to the Cafe Bar.

The Quiet Coach had to be placed in K because if it had have been put in M this would have drastically reduced the available seats on a HST.

I do also believe one of the questions asked in the survey was "What would make you more likely to travel First Class?".

This thread is also getting way off topic. Next week we have Smoked Salmon & Cream Cheese sandwiches. Also this weeks cake, Carrot & Pineapple, is far more tasty than the name may suggest and indeed far more delightful than it looks.

 

[Greenback]

I think they had made up their minds. The sentence in their email response about 'other long distance train companies' sort of gives the game away. They are merely following Virgin. And rather badly by all accounts!

As I have said before, there are other things that EC could have looked at if they wanted to take passengers of the airlines.

 

[jon0844]

I presume that there was a multiple choice answer to the question "What would make you more likely to travel First Class?" and it didn't include 'make it cheaper' as an available answer!

I think that EC should have tried to make its trains LOOK like a plane and fool passengers. Make first class passengers turn up extra early to 'check in' to the lounge, give them a security check, then when they go to the train, stick some fake wings on the side that stick out a couple of feet. Say it's some new aerodynamic design.

It also has the added benefit of enforcing the 'stand behind the yellow line' rule at the stations the train passes through.

Virgin passengers can of course be told the train IS flying, as they are unlikely to have a window to look out of to discover the truth.

(Now how's that for way off topic!)

 

[YorkshireRider]

Feedback is been listened to, the veg biryani is been withdrawn and replaced by something else because of bad feedback, also the fact no hot meat option is available on most journeys is also being reviewed along with the under 70 mins food offer. If there are constant complaints from customers about the all day/evening offer im sure it will be reviewed and changed but i doubt there is any chance of a return to paying for food, not under East Coast anyway. If the economy was still in the position it was 5 or 6 years ago then things would probably have stayed the same but the reality is they had to try something, will it work? i guess we'll find out 6/12 months down the line.

 

[AlterEgo]

As a VT employee, I'm obviously biased. I do however honestly think that Virgin's complimentary food offering is excellent.

I had the privilege of doing some unofficial "mystery shopping" with my other half on Tribe-discounted 1st Advance tickets, MKC - GLC, a few weeks ago. Her cooked breakfast was very good (but no baked beans!!), and my kippers were simply excellent. Better than the ones I had the following morning in a 5* hotel in any case!

I am going to try and catch one of EC's breakfast services in the next month or two to give it a little test. I'm hoping I'll be impressed.

I personally believe in the at-seat dining option, or at least how Virgin does it. The service was quick, attentive, but not intrusive and all of the food arrived quickly and at the right temperature.

I expect this thread will STILL be rumbling on in mid-July or August so I'll give a brief report then.

As an aside, I'm doing NXEA's Breakfast Train, the 1000 from Liverpool St to Norwich, this Wednesday. I've heard mixed reports. I do love the idea of good food on the train and it is something that definitely sets travelling by rail above other forms of transport, in terms of it being more civilised in any case. It's the reason I liked WSMR so much when they were about.

 

[silentone]

Feedback is been listened to, the veg biryani is been withdrawn and replaced by something else because of bad feedback, also the fact no hot meat option is available on most journeys is also being reviewed along with the under 70 mins food offer. If there are constant complaints from customers about the all day/evening offer im sure it will be reviewed and changed but i doubt there is any chance of a return to paying for food, not under East Coast anyway. If the economy was still in the position it was 5 or 6 years ago then things would probably have stayed the same but the reality is they had to try something, will it work? i guess we'll find out 6/12 months down the line.

I personally don't see the point in the 'Evening Offer' which doesn't vary that much from the 'All Day' offer. I have expressed this view recently to them.

Now before you all jump on the bandwagon there are 2 'Evening' offers and I'm specifically talking about the non-Evening Meal offer.

 

[455refurb]

I was a big fan of the EC at-seat burger and was more than happy to pay for it, haven't travelled EC since the changes but from what I hear my next trip to Stirling or Inverness isn't going to be half as good as it used to be.

Surely EC could address a lot of the criticism by re-introducing one or two paid options, such as the burger, for those happy to fork out for it?

Or, make the burger an always available hot option from the all day menu.

Couple of other points:

- I don't consider a small quiche to be a "hot meal" as some are describing. A curry & rice or sausage & mash is a hot meal, a quiche is a hot snack or so-called light bite at best.

- EC really need to put the evening meal onto southbound services. If they don't, my next southbound will be via Glasgow on VT, where for a comparable price I'll get a hot meal thrown in.

 

[Failed Unit]

Loadings are up in 1st. The 'new franchise' will be committed to providing this level of service as a minimum.

Is that because it includes the week the volcano gifted east coast lots of passengers?

 

[Essexman]

I was a big fan of the EC at-seat burger and was more than happy to pay for it, haven't travelled EC since the changes but from what I hear my next trip to Stirling or Inverness isn't going to be half as good as it used to be.

Surely EC could address a lot of the criticism by re-introducing one or two paid options, such as the burger, for those happy to fork out for it?

Or, make the burger an always available hot option from the all day menu.

Couple of other points:

- I don't consider a small quiche to be a "hot meal" as some are describing. A curry & rice or sausage & mash is a hot meal, a quiche is a hot snack or so-called light bite at best.

- EC really need to put the evening meal onto southbound services. If they don't, my next southbound will be via Glasgow on VT, where for a comparable price I'll get a hot meal thrown in.

Good idea - at least keep one paid for item that almost everyone likes - I'd happilly pay for a burger but don't want a free poncy tart and I don't like spicy food, so will often find I don't want the 'free' offering(s).

 

[Failed Unit]

There is not a single service on the route (other than weekends) that offer only sandwiches. There is at very minimum that weeks hot meal, this week it's a quiche, on most there is also a salad.

Technically true, but as I am a passengers sat in coach M, reality is that out of the 4 trains I have NONE have had hot options, they have all been sandwiches open. 100% failure to deliver a hot meal on one occasion because they decided to change the menu on Tuesday rather than Wednesday because of the bank holiday. So my personal experience is that the 1500 and 1600 are both sandwich only trains, until I see personal evidence otherwise that is exactly what I will be telling people considering taking first class. It is fine saying something should be avialable, but when it isn't the company can't complain when passengers describe what is really on offer.

I'm also sure both the ticket types mentioned above had some restrictions and were a specific package tailored to different needs in which the Food part only made up one part.

Yes they were valid on east coast trains only, the Scottish exectutive was reservation southbound only flexiable northbound.

Elaine Holt has been *ermm* on the war path the past few days with some crews/trains/managers. RG have also been getting it in the neck and have themselves been giving EC some things to think about. I've no doubt Customer Services are quite literally snowed in with complaints as the past 2/3 weeks have been quite something.

Quite why the crews are getting it in the neck is beyond me, it was the companies choice! It is not the crews fault they run out of food is it? One area that I have noticed is a problem, during the afternoon tea people were getting offered sandwiches, some wanted a sandwich and a scone (not unreasonable for a 4h20 journey) but didn't know if they should ask at the beginning or when the trolley returned, however when the trolley returned they were all gone.

At weekends if you don't like any of what's available then there is the Cafe Bar, which has the same range of items available as before (minus the meals, although I was told these were being removed for Summer anyway). I'm sure this paragraph will come under fire merely at the suggestion of having to go to the Cafe Bar.

Sort of, I have gone to the cafe bar for something, they guy serving me first question was didn't you fancy the beetroot resoito {which wasn't offered as they had all gone} It is fine as they had no queue, but some trains the queue for the cafe bar can be long. The company can't honestly thing that on a Saturday a first class passenger is going to thing that paying a first class ticket and having to queue 20 minutes for something to eat is not an improvement. However I will also acknowledge that many other IC TOCs don't offer at seat service to first class at weekends. FGW make first class passengers go to the buffet for tea / coffee at the weekends on my experience.

The Quiet Coach had to be placed in K because if it had have been put in M this would have drastically reduced the available seats on a HST.

Yep and the passengers would not be happy that coach J has no power points if they want to work. I have already had the misfortune of getting placed in coach K because M & L were fully booked and was not happy. Equally some woman asked me not to use my phone in coach L who I politely told that if she had a problem with that she could go to coach k (she didnt) So even though I don't like them myself, at least those that do can use them!

I do also believe one of the questions asked in the survey was "What would make you more likely to travel First Class?".

Not sure how I would answer that question when I do travel first class on most journeys anyway!

This thread is also getting way off topic. Next week we have Smoked Salmon & Cream Cheese sandwiches. Also this weeks cake, Carrot & Pineapple, is far more tasty than the name may suggest and indeed far more delightful than it looks.

Yep, I wonder what this weeks delights will include, will I get to see a hot option for the first time since this offer was introduced!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Feedback is been listened to, the veg biryani is been withdrawn and replaced by something else because of bad feedback, also the fact no hot meat option is available on most journeys is also being reviewed along with the under 70 mins food offer. If there are constant complaints from customers about the all day/evening offer im sure it will be reviewed and changed but i doubt there is any chance of a return to paying for food, not under East Coast anyway. If the economy was still in the position it was 5 or 6 years ago then things would probably have stayed the same but the reality is they had to try something, will it work? i guess we'll find out 6/12 months down the line.

I hope so, I also hope they may move to the Virgin model of starting service later up the line. On the 1200, 1400, 1500 & 1600 I don't think that I would want to have the dinner as soon as it leaves Kings Cross, but they certainly will make people happier if dinner was served on these trains further up the lne. 1200 and 1400 after Edinburgh, 1500 after Newcastle (it does go to Glasgow afterall) and the 1600 after York.

Likewise I hope they are really getting in the neck for Southbound, why the 1525 (from Newcastle), 1625, 1700, are not considered for an evening meal is showing total contempt for the anglo - scottish market.

 

[StrollerEd]

- I don't consider a small quiche to be a "hot meal" as some are describing ... a quiche is a hot snack or so-called light bite at best.

real travellers don't eat quiche!


But I agree very much with your points. If I decide I want more than is on offer for free I very much would want to be able to pay for what I do like. If that is denied a FC ticket holder on a long haul trip then EC is writing their own suicide note.

 

[silentone]

Is that because it includes the week the volcano gifted east coast lots of passengers?

Nope that excludes that period in the first week.

Crews are responsible for ensuring they have the required amount of stock for First Class on the trains they work. Initial orders were created for every train and as we are now approaching the 4th week crews should have a general idea of what they need. Hence why Holt has been out and about. It's the Crew Leader who should be reviewing the stocking levels with their line manager and some just haven't bothered. The crew should also ensure they replenish stock along the route as required. Again some just don't bother.

You know everyone complains when they can't get a seat... it seems some are still not happy even when they get a seat.

I think the hot meal next week is a Goats Cheese & Red Onion tart.

 

[richa2002]

*hot snack. A tart/quiche really shouldn't be called a meal.

 

[theblackwatch]

I think the hot meal next week is a Goats Cheese & Red Onion tart.

Out of interest, what does this come with? In my mind it should be some form of potato plus veg/salad as a minimum. Also, is there a 'veggie free' (ie a meat) option?

 

[richa2002]

Fair point, if it comes with some vegetables or a large salad, it may just about justify the term 'meal'.

 

[theblackwatch]

Fair point, if it comes with some vegetables or a large salad, it may just about justify the term 'meal'.

But if it doesn't, then it doesn't qualify as a meal in my opinion (and yours too I suspect!).

 

[YorkshireRider]

Out of interest, what does this come with? In my mind it shoudl be some form of potato plus veg/salad asa minimum. Also, is there a 'veggie free' (ie a meat) option?

It only comes with mixed leaf salad with balsamic vinegar dressing and no there is no hot meat option unless its an 'evening meal' train, just sandwiches which from this wendesday will be smoked salmon and cream cheese or roasted vegetables with pesto. However if you are on an evening meal train you will be offered veg with the tart and there will be also a non veggie option which at prescent is salmon fillet, desserts and cheese and buscuits is also offered on these services.

 

[StrollerEd]

just rec'd a second response from EC, to a message sent a while back asking when my first message would get a response

I thank you for your email and apologise over the time taken to respond, given recent events.

I am sorry to read that you are disappointed with the changes to our First Class service. Whilst I realise First Class may now be busier and this has increased noise in First Class these changes came after continuous customer feedback regarding the implementation of at seat dining which has proved extremely popular when introduced by other long haul train operators. Our First Class food sales have been in decline for a long period of time. This change is necessary to improve our overall First Class service for our customers.

I am also sorry to read that there was no hot food for many passengers on your journey. On the day you travelled, this was during the launch week of our new First Class Service and by your account this did not go to plan on your service and I apologise for this. With any launch of a new service this size it can be expected that there are issues like the one you unfortunately experienced. I can ensure you that now after the new service has been in place for a number of weeks things are running much more smoothly, the initial problems experienced have been reviewed and the appropriate action taken. We are continuing to review our new service and are always looking about how we can improve it.

I can assure you that all comments and feedback we receive regarding the new First Class service are recorded and sent to the appropriate manager for consideration.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to contact us as we value all customer feedback.

I wont reply to this one accept to acknowledge - well, maybe not at length

 

[jon0844]

...these changes came after continuous customer feedback regarding the implementation of at seat dining which has proved extremely popular when introduced by other long haul train operators.

It does seem like the questions they must have asked would have been along the lines of comparisons with other services; most notably Virgin.

I doubt everyone using EC would have automatically said 'I want at seat dining like Virgin', especially if they always use EC and wouldn't even know what Virgin was offering.

Some people may pick and choose, but for a lot of people you simply use the TOC that serves your route. For me, that's EC.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well 1200 Edinburgh - London today was still 2 sandwiches only for nearly a 5 hour journey, not good enough for the long journey to Peterborough where I got off so no things have not yet improved. I liked the sound of the goats cheese and red onion tart. so clearly east coast need someone new to do research.