London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service

[philjo]

My Dad went standard class to Leeds yesterday - he said that the coffee from the std class trolley has gone up 25p since he went to York last week and is now a different brand which he didn't care for. So it will be the coffee shop on Stevenage platform next time! (EC loses out again)

 

[calc7]

I was really looking forward to travelling first class with East Coast until I read through this thread :cry:.

Me too. I booked my free First Class tickets from the loyalty scheme towards the end of last year then started reading the thread. Luckily it helps manage one's expectations (especially if you are used to travelling in First Class with Virgin Trains).

 

[philjo]

Though when I went with VT last year it did not appear to be any more generous.
I went Euston-Glasgow on the 08:30 - had the smoked salmon & scrambled Egg which was nice but I recall only having 1 thin slice of toast served.
Nothing offered at all for the rest of the journey to Glasgow after that except for tea/coffee. I think they changed crew at Preston but only saw them once when serving tea after Carlisle.
However I was getting the next train back from Glasgow to Oxenholme & did have the chicken risotto on that service (I booked during the VT 1st seat sale as was going to Oxenholme anyway so booked via Glasgow)

 

[cookiescrumble]

Me too. I booked my free First Class tickets from the loyalty scheme towards the end of last year then started reading the thread. Luckily it helps manage one's expectations (especially if you are used to travelling in First Class with Virgin Trains).

I booked them as part of the £25 deal thingy for a trip to York in May. I have never travelled first class at all , so this will be the first time.

But considering a standard class advance for this same journey starts at £29, one can't really complain!

 

[ainsworth74]

But considering a standard class advance for this same journey starts at £29, one can't really complain!

Well, I don't think it matters how much anyone paid if EC fail to deliver what is advertised then I would say you have the right to complain about the service. Fair enough that it might not be good value for someone on £300 open ticket even if the service is perfect and therefore they might have a reason to complain but if EC fail to deliver I don't see what importance the price that's been paid is other than the more you've paid the worse that makes the failure to deliver.

 

[Bungle73]

If it makes you feel any better I went EC FC (also my first time) to York last year and thought the service I received was excellent: multiple mugs of coffee, multiple glasses of wine, and a tasty meal. This was on trains that were only going as far as Newcastle (on the way out), and starting at York (on the way back) though. I also went FC to Newark (for a connection to Lincoln), but on the way back they had run out of meals and only had sandwiches left, even though I was entitled to the full offer because my journey was over 70 minutes. They also started clearing up a little early for my liking.

 

[Greenback]

I can understand people sayin gthat they had a cheap ticket, so they can't complain, but on the other hand, if I took advantage of a cheap offer from a leading hotel chain, for example, I would expect to receive pretty much the same room and service as someone in the next room who may well have paid more. If breakfast is included, I would not expect it to be inferior in any way, unless it is made absolutely clear when booking that my promotional rate does not entitle me to, say, ornage juice and toast!

After all, it is the company that decides to offer these discounted rooms/cheap as chips fares, and as far as I can see EC are not selling them on the basis that they are different in terms of entitlement to any other FC fare.

That said, I don't think there is any legal basis to expect compensation for a lack of complimentary catering regardless of whether a passenger has paid £10 or £300.

 

[jon0844]

Good one!
When travelling in 1st on Virgin I am always sure to compliment the good service and often mention that it is far better than on East Coast.

There's no better way of encouraging good service than massaging staff egos! If you say 'I hear the service on here is much better than <rival>' it's more likely to have them making the effort.

Unless they really don't give a **** and just say 'You heard wrong' and spit on you. I don't think EC has got that bad yet.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

That said, I don't think there is any legal basis to expect compensation for a lack of complimentary catering regardless of whether a passenger has paid £10 or £300.

No, not for compensation.
However, there is a very considerable gulf between:
a) the exceptionally high level of promotion and marketing of the catering provision which is repeated all the way through their points of sale, at stations and on-board; and
b) the unpredictably irregular, inconsistent and frequently non-existant or incomplete catering actually to be found on-board.
That appears to be more of a basis for a claim of misrepresentation; there is an argument that passengers repeatedly buying First Class tickets having been exposed to countless promotions for the catering, would cause “the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise" or is "induced to enter into a contract by misleading statements" or "if it is likely to mislead the average consumer in its overall presentation".

I suspect that if such an argument was sustained by enough evidence of a lack of the advertised on-board catering then it may succeed. The notable point here is that the passenger is required to make a decision in advance of travel (the point of buying their ticket) and bases their decision on the information available. The discovery that there is little or no catering available is made when it is too late for the passenger to change their decision.

The UK Law Commission is currently reviewing the legislation in this area.

 

[tgsh2011]

There's no better way of encouraging good service than massaging staff egos! If you say 'I hear the service on here is much better than <rival>' it's more likely to have them making the effort.

Unless they really don't give a **** and just say 'You heard wrong' and spit on you. I don't think EC has got that bad yet.

Another form of "legal attack" would be a claim under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. In this legislation the service supplied must be reasonable by the standards of the "reasonable person". So, where a TOC quite visibly advertises catering as an integral and usual part of the 1st class experience, and then fails to deliver, it could be argued that the TOC's supply of the service is below the standard a reasonable person could expect.

I also agree with a potential claim for misrepresentation where this is a course of conduct to suggest that the offer is continually below the advertised version.

I merely return to my observation about the airline industry; i.e. can anyone seriously imagine a failure to deliver the so called "complimentary" meal on a flight (especially from an EU carrier) would result in nothing less than some form of compensation?

 

[Greenback]

No, not for compensation.
However, there is a very considerable gulf between:
a) the exceptionally high level of promotion and marketing of the catering provision which is repeated all the way through their points of sale, at stations and on-board; and
b) the unpredictably irregular, inconsistent and frequently non-existant or incomplete catering actually to be found on-board.
That appears to be more of a basis for a claim of misrepresentation; there is an argument that passengers repeatedly buying First Class tickets having been exposed to countless promotions for the catering, would cause “the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise" or is "induced to enter into a contract by misleading statements" or "if it is likely to mislead the average consumer in its overall presentation".

I suspect that if such an argument was sustained by enough evidence of a lack of the advertised on-board catering then it may succeed. The notable point here is that the passenger is required to make a decision in advance of travel (the point of buying their ticket) and bases their decision on the information available. The discovery that there is little or no catering available is made when it is too late for the passenger to change their decision.

The UK Law Commission is currently reviewing the legislation in this area.

I agree. What would be the EC response to any such legal claim of misrepresentation, I wonder. I assume they could decide to contest it, settle privately out of court or perhaps they could begin to pay compensation instead, maybe a token payment of £2.50-£5.00 for the poor quality refreshments that were not provided?

Either way, I would much prefer a decent product consistently served to being left hungry and/or thirsty!

 

[calc7]

I agree. What would be the EC response to any such legal claim of misrepresentation, I wonder. I assume they could decide to contest it, settle privately out of court or perhaps they could begin to pay compensation instead, maybe a token payment of £2.50-£5.00 for the poor quality refreshments that were not provided?

Either way, I would much prefer a decent product consistently served to being left hungry and/or thirsty!

Me too! All I want is a cold drink every half an hour or so and a reasonable sized portion of food for medium-length journeys (London to Yorkshire) with perhaps the offer of more if going to Newcastle or further.

I'd rather not have to spend my own time (economists would call it a transaction cost) to get a token bit of repayment back for a service I didn't receive!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What would be the EC response to any such legal claim of misrepresentation, I wonder.

Perhaps to remove the catering 'offer' altogether! (But that's not what you meant, I know!)

I assume they could decide to contest it, settle privately out of court or perhaps they could begin to pay compensation instead, . . .

Well, whether it was contested or 'settled' would be a decision informed by all the evidence available at the time, and the evidence would have to stand up to the prospect of being tested in cross examination.

I doubt the compensation strategy would be adopted. I believe a better outcome would be to return to the system of charging for the catering, passengers only pay for something they are actually given. No compensation necessary. Though they'd still have to improve the poor availability. And they'd have to do better at introducing better on-board cash controls.

 

[Greenback]

I doubt the compensation strategy would be adopted. I believe a better outcome would be to return to the system of charging for the catering, passengers only pay for something they are actually given. No compensation necessary. Though they'd still have to improve the poor availability. And they'd have to do better at introducing better on-board cash controls.

That is also what I would like to see happen. I much prefer to pay for the catering I want, when I want it rather than be at the whim of the service provider. If nothing else, there is a better chance of it being good quality!

 

[142094]

Thinking of this from a business point of view, East Coast will know that loadings in 1st class were down due to the recession, as businesses look to cut back on expenses and travel all together. We all know that some TOCs make a good profit margin on 1st class customers, even if they only make up say 10% of total passengers transported.

So what do you do in this situation? You look at the other markets going - so leisure and day-trippers. If these type of passengers make up some of your other 90%, then even if you only entice a small percentage of these travellers to go 1st for a change (so hence the £25 and Reader Offer promos), then you get a few more into 1st. And you never know, some of these people may enjoy 1st so much that the next time they travel, they might think it is worth the extra few quid to go in 1st instead of standard.

The complimentary offer is designed again to do that. I'm sure EC have worked out the total cost of what a reasonable person is likely to eat and drink on a trip, whether it be above or below the 70 minute timescale. Ideally you'd have some people not taking up the offer, and some who will have more than average. It should balance itself out, but clearly on some services it doesn't. Perhaps the hesitation to give out more than a beer, soft drink and spirit is the fact that there may not be enough left for someone else getting on later in the trip. It may also be the case that those who travel for less than the 70 minutes are effectively subsidising those who travel a bit further, and therefore get a bit more.

Comparison with the airlines is tricky as it has already been pointed out that you know the maximum amount of people that will be on the plane, and you don't when on a train due to the different tickets. Plus, planes normally travel A-B and don't usually stop half way and allow more people on.

It would be quite foolish of EC to not have looked at the economic case - I've seen part of the manual given out to Subway staff (sandwich shop), and it shows how much of each ingredient should be put into the sandwich. It even shows which way the cheese slices should be arranged, to make it look as if the sandwich has more filling than it actually does.

 

[Butts]

To be fair to East Coast their service is better than Virgins at the Weekend -it actually exists !!!

I find the pre-packed sandwiches better than the "fresh ones" you get during the week. Okay theres no ale but at least the coke cans are full sized. You also get biscuits and crisps and plenty of coffee.

The only blot is that pathetic breakfast croissant if you are unfortunate to be on an early service.

I have often found the service to be more frequent and generous at the weekends, indeed on a Berwick to Falkirk trip I had full service a couple of times in just over an hour.

 

[142094]

You can get Pedigree bitter, which is quite a standard drink but not exactly brilliant.

 

[jon0844]

The odd family or lone person who gets a cheap advance ticket or FC upgrade from a web offer; are they likely to consider paying for a more expensive FC ticket in the future if their experience isn't top notch?

You'd think they'd be bending over backwards to provide a top quality service all the time, and people would want to pay for FC every time - and when the offers end, would pay the higher amount.

Surely many people take the freebies if it's cheap, but aren't really bothered either way - and even less so if the experience is poor.

 

[calc7]

The odd family or lone person who gets a cheap advance ticket or FC upgrade from a web offer; are they likely to consider paying for a more expensive FC ticket in the future if their experience isn't top notch?

You'd think they'd be bending over backwards to provide a top quality service all the time, and people would want to pay for FC every time - and when the offers end, would pay the higher amount.

Surely many people take the freebies if it's cheap, but aren't really bothered either way - and even less so if the experience is poor.

Precisely. Tonight I am on the 17.33 from KGX to WKF in Standard Class. The ticket cost me £18. The equivalent First Class ticket at time of booking (about 3 weeks ago) was £43. I can easily afford that First Class ticket. But my experiences have been so poor that I will buy something to drink on my way to the station and I will get food at my destination.
By comparison, if these were the price differentials on Virgin, I would likely have paid for First Class.

 

[142094]

The odd family or lone person who gets a cheap advance ticket or FC upgrade from a web offer; are they likely to consider paying for a more expensive FC ticket in the future if their experience isn't top notch?

You'd think they'd be bending over backwards to provide a top quality service all the time, and people would want to pay for FC every time - and when the offers end, would pay the higher amount.

Surely many people take the freebies if it's cheap, but aren't really bothered either way - and even less so if the experience is poor.

Depends on the person travelling, and their opinion on value for money and service levels. I'm sure many people who don't travel often, or travel but normaly in 1st class will find that the price of the ticket and the service they get is good, and perhaps will try 1st class again in the future.

It's the same principle as when new things come into supermarkets - they are just about always sold on special offer, normally at a lower price than the main competitor. Person buys that product, to see what it is like. In the end they might enjoy it just as much or more than the other product, and change their habits.

 

[calc7]

Not disagreeing with you at all, 142094. It probably requires a very in-depth economic study (which neither of us has the inclination to do, but East Coast can happily PM me as I can freelance on such things )

I have spent quite a lot of time thinking about the economics of First Class (as have several authors). I agree that posters on this forum, who are interested in rail travel, probably have more polar views than the average pair of middle class 40-somethings going for a theatre trip to London.

Any posts will be anecdotal, but it is interesting to hear people's opinions nonetheless.

(He types from Coach C on the 1733 ex-KGX)

 

[sidmouth]

It's the same principle as when new things come into supermarkets - they are just about always sold on special offer, normally at a lower price than the main competitor. Person buys that product, to see what it is like. In the end they might enjoy it just as much or more than the other product, and change their habits.

Thats the principle. But then, as you say, it depends on the person then enjoying the product as much or more than the competing product so that they then change their habits. Pity no one told EC management the second part of this principle. There is not much point launching and promoting a product that fails to deliver 100%.

 

[142094]

I know that quite a few on here have had problems, but I've been using afew of the special offers recently and found the food and service to be quite good for what I paid, and for the length of the journey. The journeys I made included Newcastle - KGX, Leeds - KGX, and Newcastle - Edinburgh, so all at 3 hours or less. No complaints on these, apart from perhaps an extra run through with the trolley, and clearing up a tad later.

The other trip I made was Aberdeen to KGX, and the offer was unacceptable IMO. For a journey that length I'd expect something hot and filling, and had to made do with cheese sandwiches for the whole trip. This was on a £25 offer, so although good value for the journey length, the quality of the offer did not match.

 

[Bungle73]

The other trip I made was Aberdeen to KGX, and the offer was unacceptable IMO. For a journey that length I'd expect something hot and filling, and had to made do with cheese sandwiches for the whole trip. This was on a £25 offer, so although good value for the journey length, the quality of the offer did not match.

What happened to the meals?

 

[142094]

Should have mentioned it was a weekend, the ABD - KGX one. Even so, for a journey that length something hot would have been better, and I don't remember a hot option being advertised as I would have had it.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Fully agree. Inverness and Aberdeen services should have hot food available on them. 8 hours is too long on a sarnie and packet of crisps imo. Needs something substantial.

 

[Butts]

Stand by to get your moans in on Tuesday 10th April between 1200-1500 - it's the next Live East Coast Forum with Directors on hand to answer questions.

I can't wait to find out why one piece of toast is considered acceptable with a miniscule breakfast offering.(also why it arrives 10mins before the breakfast)

My estimate of the CP of items used less than £1

Did East Coasts Catering Head Honcho used to work in school dinners or prison catering ?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Fully agree. Inverness and Aberdeen services should have hot food available on them. 8 hours is too long on a sarnie and packet of crisps imo. Needs something substantial.

Yes.
I agree.
But more to the point, it shouldn't be a debatable opinion on an internet forum as to whether a passenger might prefer a proper meal during an 8-hour journey (lets make that 9 to include a little to and from at each end).
Its a matter of biological, social and cultural fact. To deny it is an error of fact.
Its actually rather astounding that EC doesn't assure the majority of hungry Standard Class passengers the option of a substantial and healthy meal, but to deny even the possibility of one to their First Class payers is unforgiveable, inexcusable and damning of the Company's claims of 'customer service'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did East Coasts Catering Head Honcho used to work in school dinners or prison catering ?

It was UK Prisons.

I hear they got an award for some of their menus.
Was when they worked in Belfast's Maze prison during the 1981 Hunger Strikes.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Lol. I wish there was a Like button. I really do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And you're totally right. It shouldn't be open to debate whether people travelling for 9 straight hours want a full meal STD or 1ST. It doesn't matter. Of course they do. Whenever I used The Highland Chieftain to Inverness from London I ALWAYS bought a meal.

 

[Blindtraveler]

straying ever so slightly - who remembers the Gate Gourmet strikes at heathrow, primarily affecting BA?
I understand these guys and the bunch of crettins at RG are one and the same. When they cocked up a flights onboard offering BA gave out food vouchers valid at certain outlets within the terminals. Would a tie up with SSP meaning vouchers could be used at the likes of BK, Pumpkin etc not be an idea for when theres no food left, no sheff, the crew leader has a hangover, the trolley has wheel flats, if its the 3rd Tuesday of the month or indeed any of the other reasons the PR Dept fail to fobb us off with?

They could even be valid at the pubs they opperate or maybe at Wetherspoons?
That way EC arnt seen to be handing out actual cash iether as streight payouts or in free travel as we all know this governments views on handing out money to those who need it. of cours when somebody with half a brain take7 over next winter then it will all be much simpler.

Should say Virgin get it, the onboard free FC Refreshments will instantly be done propperly.
if somebody like First take over my bet is the Sarnys et2 will stil be free with Traveling sheff on many trains and maybe even there much praised full restaurant on INV/ABD runs.
A continental player like SNCF wil I think do ok too