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London Midland Overtime Ban

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87015

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London Midland management failed to recruit enough drivers to run the full timetabled service.

When 'not enough' drivers volunteer to work excessive hours as a result of low morale among the workforce, services get cancelled, and LM management have the audacity to blame it all on ASLEF and the traincrews, sending morale plummeting even further.

This is no different from the disgraceful tactics used by First Capital Connect management during the drivers' dispute last year.

To hire more drivers would need a change in the base roster, which would have to be agreed with the unions etc, who over the last year or so would seem unlikely to agree or just make daft demands to effectively block it.

More drivers can be span out by a union to work "against" the union members due to less RDW/overtime potential and less anchorage in disputes such as this...
 
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radamfi

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Do the union even want LM to hire more drivers? Surely that means less overtime for them?
 

driver9000

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Do the union even want LM to hire more drivers? Surely that means less overtime for them?

ASLEF don't really want Driver's working overtime at all, they would rather see more Driver's in the industry (which is also a potential source of new members).
 

radamfi

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ASLEF don't really want Driver's working overtime at all, they would rather see more Driver's in the industry (which is also a potential source of new members).

Oh yes, in that case I can see why ASLEF have a financial incentive to reduce overtime. Although individual union members would be denied overtime, which surely wouldn't go down well?
 

driver9000

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ASLEF can stop rest day working if it wanted to by simply not allowing it or not accepting a request from a TOC for rest day working. At my TOC we haven't worked rest days for over 2 years although we haven't had the problems LM has.
 

radamfi

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ASLEF can stop rest day working if it wanted to by simply not allowing it or not accepting a request from a TOC for rest day working. At my TOC we haven't worked rest days for over 2 years although we haven't had the problems LM has.

Can't individual drivers ask the TOC to work rest days? Sounds unfair if both employee and employer agree to it but have this blocked by the union.
 

driver9000

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No, the union acts as the collective voice. An individual driver cannot approach the company and act alone to gain rest day working for themself.
 

driver9000

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Even if the driver is not in the union?

Yes. We have none union members at my depot who are also not able to work rest days or even approach the company as rest day working is not in force just like those of us who are in a union. The TOCs wouldn't accept an individuals request anyway because they deal with the unions collectively and the amount of overtime being worked needs regulating and monitoring through equalisation to ensure excessive hours are not being worked. It's not an ideal situation for those who might want to work their rest days but it's about the fairest system we have - we can all have the chance to work rest days or none of us can...the point of the union is to air the members voices to management, if the will to work overtime has gone then that is what has been communicated to management. I don't work for London Midland but it seems from my outsiders perspective that they were relying on the goodwill and willingness to work overtime to run the service similar to FCC did.
 
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Tringonometry

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Sadly, there are a handful of drivers who have been working rest days over the last couple of weeks.

Needless to say, they're not hugely popular.
 

33056

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Well why does LM only rosta drivers (excluding overtime) to work monday - saturday only, considering the railways run 7 days a week.
Because Sunday is outside the working week on LM and is, therefore, overtime. This was always the case for all staff under BR but since privatisation many TOCs and FOCs have reached negotiated settlements with their staff via the unions to have Sunday included in the working week.

This is not as simple as it sounds and the problem in this case appears to be that industrial relations between LM and the unions has totally broken down so, until they can agree to "get round the table" and start to discuss things, the overtime ban will remain in force.
 

radamfi

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Sadly, there are a handful of drivers who have been working rest days over the last couple of weeks.

Needless to say, they're not hugely popular.

That doesn't make sense. driver9000 said that ASLEF can ban rest day working if they want to. Clearly, that hasn't happened as otherwise those drivers wouldn't be able to work. So ASLEF don't mind rest day working and it is merely coincidence that no one else have volunteered.
 

driver9000

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According to ASLEF there is no rest day working sanctioned on either side of London Midland. I have no idea how or why the small number of Driver's are able to work their rest days unless they are volunteering to work Sundays which wouldn't come under the banner of rest day working as it is outside the working week. I cannot fathom how the company would get away with rostering them to rest day work, it would only serve to worsen already bad company relations.
 
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Greenback

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Presumably the drivers that are working on Sundays ar enot memebrs of ASLEF, and have volunteered to work?
 

GB

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Yes. We have none union members at my depot who are also not able to work rest days or even approach the company as rest day working is not in force just like those of us who are in a union. The TOCs wouldn't accept an individuals request anyway because they deal with the unions collectively and the amount of overtime being worked needs regulating and monitoring through equalisation to ensure excessive hours are not being worked.

Really? As far as I am concerned, if I am not in a union (which I am) then my buisness is between myself and my employer.

Unions are only the voice of its members and I don't see they have a right to dictate instructions to non members.
 

Greenback

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Really? As far as I am concerned, if I am not in a union (which I am) then my buisness is between myself and my employer.

Unions are only the voice of its members and I don't see they have a right to dictate instructions to non members.

I agree. I just can't see TOC's turning volunteers away, the days of the closed shop are long gone!
 

driver9000

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In my experience if the union stops rest day working then nobody works them regardless of union membership. Maybe none union Driver's should negotiate their own terms and pay? Because at the moment they take what a union negotiates with their employer, but that's a different matter altogether.
 

ANorthernGuard

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In my experience if the union stops rest day working then nobody works them regardless of union membership. Maybe none union Driver's should negotiate their own terms and pay? Because at the moment they take what a union negotiates with their employer, but that's a different matter altogether.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with NON union members working whatever they choose because at the end of it, if they mess up they have no one to protect them, you pick what you want then you have to face the consequences
 

driver9000

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Personally I wouldn't have a problem with NON union members working whatever they choose because at the end of it, if they mess up they have no one to protect them, you pick what you want then you have to face the consequences

Of course I have no problem with none union members doing their own thing. I was only trying point out that TOCs don't deal individually with staff in relation to rest day working and the unions hold the negotiating rights for staff and regardless of membership they take on what is negotiated and agreed.



 

Greenback

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Of course they do, but they have no say in branch meetings, their views are not taken into account when negotiations begin, nor do they have a say on whether to accept an offer or not. It is an individual's choice on whether they want to be represented, many, I would think, wish they had joined up if the brown stuff ever hits the revolving thing!
 

Old Hill Bank

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Let's go back to simple logic here

A company employs an individual and pays them £xxxxK

The individual chooses to join a trade union and employs them for £xxx(no K)

The company employs the individual to perform the requirements of the company.

The individual has EMPLOYED the trade union to negotiate on their behalf.

Why is the individual taking instructions from the people they employ!!!!!
 

GB

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Why is the individual taking instructions from the people they employ!!!!!

The relationship Union Members have with Unions is not classed or regarded as an employer/employee relationship.
 

Tringonometry

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That doesn't make sense. driver9000 said that ASLEF can ban rest day working if they want to. Clearly, that hasn't happened as otherwise those drivers wouldn't be able to work. So ASLEF don't mind rest day working and it is merely coincidence that no one else have volunteered.

Or it could be that driver9000 is not 100% correct - in this particular case.

These are ASLEF members working rest days (Mon-Sat) in the absence of a rest day work agreement.

As I said - not popular! <(
 

Pumbaa

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Sadly, there are a handful of drivers who have been working rest days over the last couple of weeks.

Needless to say, they're not hugely popular.

Last year when this reared its head, one of the Crewe based drivers I knew worked rest days/Sunday during the dispute. He had 2 new kids, a wife just laid off and got sh*t shovelled on him by colleagues. Just what he wanted.

I'm all in favour of solidarity, I'm out on picket on Tuesday and will be in London on the 26th, and I'm behind the Unions in sorting this out. I am not at all favourable of the attitude displayed here; the union has been able to make its point while facilitating one of its members to earn much needed extra cash. Both sides win in the end.

I don't think I'll fathom that attitude either - support for your colleagues comes from both the collective when you're after the same thing, and from personal situations unlike being displayed here.
 

radamfi

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Or it could be that driver9000 is not 100% correct - in this particular case.

These are ASLEF members working rest days (Mon-Sat) in the absence of a rest day work agreement.

As I said - not popular! <(

I hope you aren't implying any bullying or intimidation when you say 'not popular'. I don't see how any sensible person can criticise someone for not working when drivers can earn such huge money in overtime over and above the already very generous salaries drivers get.

I don't see how drivers will ever be happy, given that they are not content with £40K+ a year job with very good job security. I earn about the same as a train driver and I am grateful that I earn that amount of money, but it could end at anytime, so I just enjoy it while it lasts.
 

O L Leigh

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I don't see how drivers will ever be happy, given that they are not content with £40K+ a year job with very good job security.

*Checks payslip*

It would appear that I'm being short-changed. :-x

I'm not entirely sure that the TOC's give much attention to things like RDW sanctions. Lets face it, most disputes have at their heart some issues over industrial relations which often manifests itself as the TOC failing to adhere to agreements. Now it may be that Driver9000's employer is more honourable in this area than some others, but I really don't think many TOC's would lose sleep over allocating RDW to any drivers making themselves available irrespective of there being an RDW sanction or not. I know we had one or two drivers who were taking RDW during the NXEA dispute.

But then maybe we're getting two different things mixed up here. An RDW sanction is usually granted for a certain length of time, usually not less than 6 months and often considerably longer. However, this does not mean that a union cannot call for an O/T ban should they find themselves in dispute with a TOC, even if an RDW sanction is in effect. When this happens it is up to the drivers to decide whether or not to agree with this and, if they do, they will cease to make themselves available for RDW.

This may be closer to the situation on LM at the present moment, where the union has called for an O/T ban in spite of an RDW sanction.

With regard to an individual driver's right to decide, well I would in principle agree that this to be upheld. There are certain drivers at my location who would have found it difficult to cope financially due to their own circumstances, and I personally would not have had any issue with them having to do some minimal RDW in order to cover the bases.

But then you get the greedy bar-stewards who are just out for all they can get and will take advantage of the situation to fill their pockets with as much RDW as they can get because the competition for extras has suddenly disappeared. Likewise you have to understand how it is viewed in the messroom. When everyone else is making a sacrifice in order to try and get their employer to take notice of some issue that they are in dispute over, it undermines the effort when there is one or two greedy folk who are happy to flout the recommendations for their own gain and it does cause bad feeling. Rightly or wrongly there is an "us and them" attitude when it comes to being in dispute, and anyone who isn't one of "us" is one of "them".

But where you have an O/T ban, union membership doesn't really enter into it. A non-unionised driver could agree to abide by an O/T ban because the aims are for the good of all and not just those within the union, even though there is no compulsion for them to do so. It's down to personal conviction. Where things get tricky for them really is just when a strike is called. Union membership provides legal protection for striking workers against disciplinary action when taking part in legitimate actions. A non-union member has the stark choice of either crossing the picket line and attracting the ire of all his colleagues or being disciplined for being AWOL by the company unless he can come up with some smart third way to legitimise his absence and refusal to work on a strike day.

As with a lot of things, there are lots of different strands that can easily get tangled up.

O L Leigh
 

Tringonometry

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Counter argument #1:

There's no way a driver would be able to support his family in anything like the manner to which they would like to become accustomed if he didn't earn a damn good basic salary.

That salary having been achieved in large part by the solidarity of those who preceded him in the driving grade.

And no, I'm not condoning or encouraging bullying.
 

radamfi

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Surely there must be some drivers who realise that they have got a very good thing going?

If people do get grief in the messroom for working overtime then they should report it to HR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There's no way a driver would be able to support his family in anything like the manner to which they would like to become accustomed if he didn't earn a damn good basic salary.

But drivers already get a very generous basic salary.
 

Old Hill Bank

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Surely there must be some drivers who realise that they have got a very good thing going?

If people do get grief in the messroom for working overtime then they should report it to HR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But drivers already get a very generous basic salary.

If heads can not be banged together once and for all to knock this pathetic situation into touch for good, the TOCs will have to bite the bullet and start recruiting and training new staff on new 24/7 contracts, it's not a closed shop anymore!!!!

As always it's the hot heads who choose to work hard at finding excuses not to work as opposed to just doing the job they are well paid for. As for the many (I suspect) staff at LM who are not, it's time to tell the hot heads to foxtrot oscar!!!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The relationship Union Members have with Unions is not classed or regarded as an employer/employee relationship.

If a union member is paying a trade union money they are in effect employing the trade union.

So why then does the union member take "instructions" from the union!!!!

I am a trade union member, I pay them to act on my behalf not to tell me what to do!!!!
 
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